Lords Sitting of 15 March 1822

ILCHESTER GAOL—TREATMENT OF MR. HUNT.
Mr. Earl of Darnleywished to call their lordships' attention to the state of the gaol of Ilchester, where it appeared that practices of a most extraordinary nature had for some time existed. Whatever the other deserts of Mr. Hunt, the individual by whom these practices were brought to light, in other respects might be, the country was much indebted to him for exposing such atrocities. He fully acquitted the government, of any concern, in the persecutions inflicted on that individual; but when they could not but know that persecution gave importance to its victim, they should have taken care that such importance was not given to the person, in question. He would move, for a copy of the report of the commissioners on Ilchester gaol.—Ordered.

IRISH TITHES.
The Duck of Devonshirepresented a petition from the corporation of the city of Waterford. The petitioners prayed their lordships to take into consideration the disordered state of Ireland, and in particular the system of tithes, and the mode of their collection. They were proprietors of the tithes of thirteen parishes, yet, notwithstanding this interest, they were willing to agree to any measure which might tend to the public advantage. He was anxious to

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direct their lordships' attention to this important subject; and as, from certain circumstances, he rarely took any part in their lordships' debates, he felt himself honoured in having to lay before them the sentiments entertained respecting it by so respectable a body. The frequent recurrence of those scenes of disorder which now existed in Ireland, must be regarded as evidence of something being wrong in the system by which that country was governed. It was not for him to say what measures ought to be adopted; but he thought there was nothing in the state of Ireland which more immediately demanded their lordships' attention than the system of tithes. He believed it would be found that the collection was not effected without great severity. The rigid collection was, perhaps, necessary while the system existed; but, then, that very necessity proved the propriety of resorting to some other means of providing for the church. The clergy and the people would be equally benefitted by such a change; for it would lessen the number of dissenters from the established church, and render its ministers more universally objects of respect. He was, himself, the proprietor of the tithes of more than 20 parishes, and he was ready to make a very great sacrifice to remove the evils to which the system was liable. All lay impropriators in Ireland would, he hoped, be anxious to correct a system, which was the source of so much mischief; and he could not anticipate any opposition on the part of the clergy. In discussing this important subject, he was sure that none of their lordships would be afraid that the adoption of any measure of commutation in Ireland would afford a precedent for interfering with the law of tithes in England. No apprehension of this kind could be entertained, when the essentially different circumstances of the two countries were considered. He, therefore, anxiously hoped that his majesty's ministers, or some person qualified for the task, would, without delay, bring the question of Irish tithes before parliament. There was, besides tithes, another frequent subject of complaint relative to the state of Ireland, to which he felt some delicacy and difficulty in alluding, but which he could not pass over unnoticed—he meant the complaint of the number of absentees. As one who stood in that situation, he was most anxious that no conduct of his should aggravate any injurious effects to which non-
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residence might give rise. The consciousness of being unavoidably an absentee, had always induced him to do every thing in his power to mitigate any evil which might attach to such a character in a proprietor. He was persuaded that their lordships would not consider the present disturbances a reason for refraining from any investigation which the state of Ireland called for. The existence of those disturbances was rather a motive for hastening the duty of inquiry. If it should be found to be in the power of parliament to apply any remedy, nothing could be more grateful than the performance of that imperative duty. Ireland had now the happiness to possess a lord lieutenant who would give its state full consideration, and whose vigour, experience, and talents, would be employed for its benefit. He entreated their lordships serious attention to the prayer of this petition, which spoke the sentiments of all the loyal, intelligent, and substantial part of Ireland.
The Earl of Liverpoolfelt convinced, that he only gave utterance to the sentiments of every noble peer in the House, when he expressed his regret that any circumstances should prevent the noble duke from taking a more frequent part in its debates. He had never seen a question brought forward in a more manly, distinct, and able manner. The petition was entitled to the most serious consideration, from the respectability of the body from which it proceeded, and from the influence and property of the noble duke by whom it had been presented. Whatever the inconvenience of absentees might be, and he did not deny that they were great, he had the satisfaction of knowing and believing that there was no landlord more liberal towards his tenants, and more eager to do every thing in his power to mitigate their sufferings, than the noble duke. With respect to the subject of the petition, it was a question which occupied the most serious attention of the noble marquis at the head of the government of Ireland, and of the members of administration in this country. It was necessary, however, that one or two prejudices should be removed. With respect to the present disturbances, he did not believe that much of them belonged to the question of tithes. Neither was it a question solely between the clergy and the community: for more than one-third of the tithes in Ireland was not in the posses-

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sion of the clergy, but in that of the lay impropriators. He stated this to do away an injurious imputation which had been cast upon the clergy. He could not speak from his own experience of the manner in which tithes were levied in Ireland, but it would generally be found in England that, the clergy were not the persons most severe in the exaction of their rights. It was important that their lordships should not suppose that this great question had been overlooked. It had been under consideration for many years; and even a noble duke who was at the head of the Irish government in 1806 and 1807, had avowed, that he had not found any plan which completely met the object which he had in view. There was a difficulty which, however, he did not consider as insurmountable. It was this—that in any commutation of tithes, the advantage in profit was most likely to be on the side of the clergy. This to him was no objection; especially as the alteration proposed would have a tendency to produce tranquillity in the country. The noble duke had alluded to a very general notion, that it was impossible to enter into the question of tithes in Ireland, without being called upon to do the same in England. He agreed with the noble duke in thinking that there was no shadow of necessity in the case; and he should add, that he saw no reason why persons the most averse to entering into the consideration of the question of tithes as it regarded England, might not readily entertain the same question with regard to Ireland. It appeared to him to be purely an Irish question! And the object of inquiry would be, how to do justice to the clergy, and all those interested in the particular king of property. It ought not to be mixed with any other question. He might say, that the subject was under consideration, and that those whose particular business it was to consider the question were earnestly applying their minds to it.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, there were circumstances connected with the petition just presented, which commanded their lordships' particular attention; first, in the manner in which it had been introduced by his noble friend, who had done such ample justice to the subject; and next, in the character of the petitioners, who called upon their lordships to interfere on the great principles of justice and policy. Whatever remedy their lordships might find for the evil, it must
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redound to the honour of the corporation of Waterford, that they had so readily expressed their willingness to renounce important interests for the sake of removing moving from themselves the odium and perplexity which the system of tithe property created, and from the country a principle of distraction and dissension which had so long afflicted it. His noble friend had stated the extent to which he was proprietor of tithes, and the individual who was now addressing their lordships was not uninterested in that kind of property. In common with the petitioners, he came before them to express his anxiety, that the system of tithes should be investigated, and he was sure that they would find in the statements of the petitioners ample grounds for making it the subject of prompt and serious consideration. No man who fairly considered the question could fail to acknowledge it to be most unfortunate, that a species or property already abolished in most part of Europe should continue in its very worst state in that part of Europe, where its existence presented the greatest anomaly with the state of society, and was productive of the greatest possible mischief. If the ingenuity of the legislature had been devoted to the discovery of a particular institution which should present the greatest bar to the success of Protestant church in Ireland—which should have the greatest effect in alienating the minds of the people from the established form of worship—which should be most successful in sowing discord, and encouraging its growth when sown—no better means could have been devised than the state of the law respecting tithes. But, while those considerations imperiously called upon their lordships to proceed to the investigation of the subject, there was nothing in such an inquiry which implied any hostility to the established church. Whatever evil there might be in the conditions attached to this description of property, the Protestant clergy were in no respect answerable for it. They were the ministers of humanity and benevolence, as far as the state of the country would permit. If they could not always carry their religion into the cottage of the poor man, they carried that advice which their situation afforded them to give, and promoted that conciliation which it required. It was not to such men the evils felt on this subject ought to be attributed.

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They belonged to the system itself. But it was also true, that there unfortunately were instances of the contrary. It was one of the evils attending tithes, that they would often fall into the hands of persons who would avail themselves of the opportunity which the tenure of that property afforded, to harass those who had to pay. That alone was a great source of discontent. The noble earl had said, that the existence of this system was not a principal cause of the present disorders in Ireland; but there were many instances in which it appeared that the collection of tithes had been the sole cause of the disturbances. The noble marquis here referred to the resolutions of the magistrates of two baronies, unanimously agreed to, stating, that the collection of the tithes had occasioned disorders which could be attributed to no other cause, and instanced the case of a curate who farmed the tithes of his rector, and who had raised them 75 per cent since 1815. It was evident, that the system pursued by tithe-proctors, could not be carried into effect without producing the most bitter consequences.—He had alluded to the system of tithes baying undergone modification in other countries; but their lordships would not therefore suppose, that he meant to recommend the adoption of similar measures in this country. He was willing to admit that advantages had been obtained, even in those countries on the continent in which the changes had been most extensive; but those changes were of so revolutionary a nature, and had been attended by such a character of spoliation, that he should be sorry to see any, disposition to imitate them in this country. The only principle which should guide their lordships' conduct in legislating on this subject was, to do ample justice to those who were interested in tithe property; but, in doing this ample justice, it would be found, that as much might be obtained by the church, and as much be paid by the farmer, without any of those dreadful evils that attended the present mode of collection. And he might tell their lordships, that from the manner in which this property was managed at present, those who were least deserving of the full advantages of it were the most rigid in exacting, and the most successful in obtaining them. It was not the estimable persons to whom he alluded before—it was not the worthy rector who lived among his flock, and devoted his time to the duties of religious
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instruction and the labours of private charity, who did all the good in his power, and was contented sometimes with one-third of his due, who benefitted by the present system: but it was the indifferent rector, the absent clergyman, who did nothing, that exacted most, and employed persons who, in forwarding his interests, often outraged the best feelings of the human heart. With respect to the remedy for the evils of which the petitioners complained, it would be premature to enter on the consideration of it. He might, however, say, respecting what had fallen from the noble earl, about the views of a noble duke who was lord lieutenant of Ireland, that the noble earl was mistaken when he considered his noble friend (the duke of Bedford) as having formed no opinion or plan to remedy the evils of the tithe system. The noble duke had formed an opinion, and drawn up a plan, to the main principle of which be adhered to this moment. He might be permitted to add, that with respect to one mode of remedying the, evils complained of, namely, by the substitution of land for tithes, it did not seem so liable to objection ill Ireland as in England. The objection in this part of the country was, that by converting the clergyman into a landed proprietor, he would become too much interested in the cultivation of his estate to attend to the care of his parish; whereas, in Ireland, the clergyman had frequently no clerical duties to perform, and was regarded rather as a magistrate and a country gentleman, than us a religious instructor. He had heard with pleasure, that the noble marquis at the head of the Irish government, had taken into consideration the effects of the tithe system; and that the troubles in the south of Ireland were not considered as forming any obstacle to the discussion of the existing system, or the adoption of plans for its correction. He would, therefore, leave it for the present in the hands of government; but no time must be lost in entering on the investigation of the subject. Parliament would not do its duty if it allowed it for a moment to escape out of their sight; for though there were confessedly obstacles to the accomplishment of the remedy, these obstacles were as nothing when viewed in comparison with that tremendous state of violence and crime now organised in Ireland, and which tended to the very subversion of the elements of society.
The Earl of Limericksaid, that though the present discontents of Ireland were not all to be ascribed to the tithe system, yet that system bore a great share in causing them. The other causes were various, but he would only advert to one of them; namely, the abominable mode in which the excise regulations were executed for the prevention of smuggling. The proceedings of the excise in this respect were sufficient to barbarize any country—to disorganize the army, and to demoralize the peasantry. The military were employed, under the conduct of the revenue officers, in scouring the country by night, and fighting with bodies of men whom the harsh mode of enforcing the revenue laws rendered ferocious and desperate. The House should not delay for a moment to investigate evils of such magnitude, and apply the proper remedy. The hardships which they had occasioned, combining with other causes, had given birth to a rebellion of the most atrocious nature, beginning in plunder, and ending in the assassination of some of the most respectable characters of the country. Those who knew the country, would not hesitate to say, that the tithes, which were intended to support a Protestant establishment, acted, by the manner in which the collection was carried into effect, as a bounty for the maintenance of the Catholic religion in Ireland.
The Earl of Blesintonsaid, that the tithe system was as obnoxious to the great body of Protestants in the North, as it was to the whole of the Catholics in the south of Ireland. The conduct of those who held college livings was particularly objected to, and the statutes of the college should, he thought, be enforced against them. These gentlemen remained, till good livings fell vacant; and then, in their old age, when they were unable to perform their duties, they came down, with 14 or 15 children, to enjoy emoluments for which they did nothing.
Ordered to lie on the table.