STATE OF IRELAND.

HL Deb 14 June 1822 vol 7 cc1045-78

The Marquis of Lansdown

rose, in pursuance of notice, to call their lordships' attention to the state of Ireland. In doing this he was conscious that he could not be accused of precipitation. After all that had occurred since the meeting of Parliament relative to Ireland—after the promises which had been made that the state of that country should be brought under the attention of Parliament—after the change which had been made in the government of Ireland, without producing those advantages which had been expected from it—after the period to which the present session had arrived without anything being offered, to the consideration of parliament, he should be acquitted of any thing like rashness in bringing forward the motion he was about to submit to their lordships. In the view which he would take of the situation of that country, he would avoid dwelling on those topics of distress which were the subject of complaint throughout the United Kingdom in general. He would, however, take the liberty of reminding their lordships, that such unhappily was the situation of Ireland, that all the distress arising from the change in the currency, and the depressed value of agricultural produce, had necessarily affected that country in a far greater degree than this. In this country there was a powerful manufacturing interest, which had, by its resistance, broken the weight of the agricultural distress; but Ireland being nearly altogether agricultural, had suffered from the depressed state of that interest in a much greater proportion than the other parts of the kingdom. If it were necessary, in b call in, their lordships attention to the state of Ireland, to show that the situation of that country was one of peculiarity, he need only refer to the statutes by which had for a period back been governed; to the laws which had been passed the view of preserving these last few years; to the laws, even, which had been enacted during the present session; to the language which had invariably been used by the proposers and supporters of those measures; and admissions made by the opponents of all severe laws. When it had been proposed, that in a part of the United Kingdom trig by jury should be suspended, that arbitrary power should be given to the magistrates, that the public money should be voted to find food and employment for the poor, surely be need not occupy time of their lordships in proving the situation of that part of the empire in which such measures had been thought necessary was peculiar. It was admitted on all hands, that trial by jury was one of the most valuable privileges of the constitution; yet, for the enjoyment of this excellent institution, Ireland, it was said not fit. That it was dangerous to the liberty of the subject to invest magistrates with arbitrary power was generally acknowledged; yet it was maintained, that there was something in the state of Ireland which rendered the exercise of aribitrary power indispensable. That it was was mischievous to interfere with the regular course of supply and demand in the market was a principle no less generally recognized; but, so singular was the situation of Ireland, that this great principle of political economy must be violated. If this was true—if what produced good in all other parts of the world only produced evil in Ireland—if the cup which conveyed to others a salutary draught—no sooner touched the lips of that country, than its contents were converted to a deadly poison, was he not entitled after twenty years of union between the two countries, to call for an inquiry into the state of Ireland? To what was the condition of Ireland to be attributed? Was it because she possessed a most fertile soil? Was it because her insular situation was most favourable to commerce? Was it because she was blest with a temperate and genial climate? Was it because Providence had bestowed on her every thing calculated to ensure riches and prosperity? Unfortunately, in spite of all her national advantages, Ireland continued poor in the midst of wealth, barbarous in the midst of civilization. That constitution which was said to confer happiness on this country, was to Ireland only a source of evil. Their lordships must, then, look farther for the origin of the mischiefs: they must look for them in the institutions and system by which that country had long been governed. The object of their inquiry ought to be, to ascertain what connexion subsisted between the system of government and the state of society. In undertaking such an inquiry, it would be wrong to describe the conduct of individuals as the cause of the evil, or to throw a stigma on any particular class of persons. The state of Ireland was not to be attributed to the misconduct of the landlords, or of the clergy. These classes in Ireland consisted of men who had received the same kind of education as the like classes in England. Their conduct was, therefore, to be ascribed to the state of society, and the institutions under which they were called upon to act. In this view of the subject, their lordships must necessarily look to the general state of the population, and to the nature and effect of the burthens which that population, had to bear. By a paper which he held in his hand, it appeared that the population of Ireland was estimated in 1695, at 1,034,000 souls: in 1731, at 2,010,000: in 1791 at 4,200,000: in 1811, at 5,400,000: and that in 1821, it had risen to 6,846,000. It had been calculated that whilst to the population of England the land bore the proportion of 3 1–9 acres to each individual; to that of Ireland the land bore only the proportion of 25–6 acres to each individual. It appeared also that of this population in Ireland the proportions were 1–14th of the established church, 1–14th Presbyterians, and 12–14th, Catholics. It was not for the purpose of calling their lordships' attention to the great importance of this population as forming part of the physical strength of the empire that he had thus particularly noticed it; but to remove a very prevalent error, that an increase of population necessarily indicated a corresponding increase in wealth and prosperity. On the contrary; the peculiar condition of Ireland proved that there might be a state of society in which the population rapidly increased, while the true sign of wealth and prosperity, the facility with which each individual found for himself a comfortable subsistence, was considerably diminished. This was a consequence of that system of gradual degradation by which the great mass of the population had been reduced to subsist entirely on the lowest kind of human food, and that which the slightest labour could supply—he meant potatoes. The effect of this habit was, to produce an indifference to comfort, and to incline individuals of the labouring class to look forward only to a bare existence. In such a situation the peasant considered himself justified in marrying, though he had no other means of maintaining a family but the potatoes he might raise in a small garden. It was on account of the state of degradation into which the peasantry of Ireland had fallen, that scenes had been witnessed which had been so faithfully anticipated by the Poet:— When scourged by famine, from the smiling, land, The mournful peasant leads his humble band; And while he sinks, without one arm to save, The country bloom:—a garden and a grave. The increase of population was not, therefore, an index of happiness. When degraded in the manner he had, described, that increase was accompanied with the most serious evils. The unfortunate state of society had given an artificial spring to the population, and along with its increase the most salutary principles of the constitution had been perverted. He would here state one of the political evils which afflicted that country, by which the right of election, instead of being an advantage, was made an engine of degradation to the people. The circumstance to which he alluded was, the practice of letting land in common. This was carried to an extent which noble lords could hardly conceive. To enable a number of persons to vote at an election, it was usual to let is farm in common. He knew an instance of one farm for which no less than ninety persons were registered as freeholders. The farm would scarcely afford a subsistence to each individual, living in the state of degradation he had described. This, then, was a practice most likely to create a pauper population. To have so large a number of individuals as 90 registered for one farm, was, perhaps, an uncommon case; but instances of farms let to 20, 30, and 40 persons for election, purposes, were very common. Whatever respect he entertained for the elective franchise, he thought there could be no objection to limit the right of voting for one farm to one individual. This narrowing of the right would not be inconsistent with the principles of the constitution, and would be of great service to the country.

He came now to a very important part of the subject; namely, the nature of the burthens which the population of Ireland had been made to bear. And here he had to point out one of the most extraordinary misapplications of the principles of taxation that had ever been made in any country—a misapplication which, while it robbed the people of their comforts, diminished the public resources. No such instance of pernicious absurdity be believed could be found in die whole history of fiscal mal-administration. The revenue of Ireland in the year 1807, amounted to 4,378,241l. Between that year and 1815, additional taxes had been laid to the estimated amount of 3,376,000l. From these were to be deducted 400,000l. remitted at the end of the last war. Now, the whole revenue of Ireland in 1821, was 3,844,889l.; so that the effect of adding three millions of taxes had been, to produce a revenue less by several hundred thousand pounds than that of 1807. Thus while the poor were deprived of their comforts, less was extracted from them, and the revenue of the country was diminished. If there were any articles which might be regarded as the luxuries of the poor, they were those bf tea and sugar. They were articles of consumption first resorted to beyond the mere necessaries of life, and announced the first approach to case and comfort. The increased duty on sugar had produced a small augmentation of revenue for whereas the produce of the duty was only, 379,000l. in 1807, it had been 404,000l. on an average of the last five years. But the consumption of the article itself had diminished from 338,000 to 267,000.cwts. In the article of tea the revenue itself had diminished since the duty had been raised. The average produce of the Irish duty on tea, between 1807 and 1809, had been 527,603l. whilst in 1819 and 1820 it had been only 451,300l. These were really taxes on civilization. He remembered to have heard it observed by an attorney-general for Ireland, that every additional house which was built in that country was a pledge of security and attachment for England. He wished, their lordships to apply this principle to all other comforts. Every thing which tended to urge men to extend their ideas, to habituate them to the enjoyments connected with social ties, had the certain effect of insuring tranquillity. He should, however he taking a very imperfect view of the subject, were he to limit his condemnation of the imprudent increase of public burthens to its effect in diminishing comfort. Their lordships must not fail to look also at its influence on morality. He had now before him a statement, which would shown the effects of the increased duties on distillation in Ireland. Such was the state of the revenue laws, that the coatraband distiller, upon the outlay of 9l. could realize 27l. Such was the extent of the temptation to the violation of, the laws, that every illicit still became a school for resistance to the government— a nucleus round which the spirit of disaffection gathered. Thus was a bounty held out to the peasant for violating the law, and the prisons of the country filled with persons to be educated for still greater offences. In the course of the last six years, 5,350 persons had been committed for offences connected with illicit distillation; and out of that number 3,963 had been convicted. When their lordships considered the imperfect condition and discipline of the Irish prisons, they would be able to form some estimate of the addition which these commitments on account of illicit distillation were likely to make to the general mass of crime in that country. The man who was driven into prison for a comparatively slight offence, would most, probably come out a hardened depredator.

He came now to the administration of justice in Ireland. But, before he entered, on that important subject, he wished to refer their lordships to a character given of the population of Ireland in the excellent work of sir John Davis. "There is no nation under the sun," said that able writer, "that does love equal and indifferent justice better than the Irish, or will rest more satisfied with its decisions, although against themselves, provided they have the protection of the laws when they do deserve it." Now, if with such a disposition to obey and respect the laws there unfortunately existed at the present period so great an hostility to the execution of them, the fact imposed upon their lordships the necessity of inquiring how far the administration of those laws was calculated to create that hostility. In making a few observations on that system of administration, he would say nothing of the practice of the courts, nor throw any reflection on the conduct of the judges. He would confine himself to the state of the magistracy, which was forced upon their lordships' attention by recent circumstances. Most of those who had attended to the state of Ireland, admitted that defects existed in the system of the magistracy, and that, from the class of persons sometimes put in the commission of the peace, and their conduct while in office, it required revision. Instead of being men of education, rank, or property, instances had occurred, in which persons were nominated to the magistracy who had no respectability in society, and who, independent of their office, did not even possess the means of subsistence. Though, as a body, they included men of high rank and consideration, yet it could not be denied, that many unworthy individuals were mixed up with them. He could speak on this subject with some degree of certainty. He had been applied to, not many weeks ago, for a loan of money by a person who called himself an Irish magistrate's son. This person turned out to be an impostor. It was true, that he was a magistrate's son; but that magistrate was himself a bankrupt. He mentioned this case because it showed what sort of persons were put into the commission in Ireland. The state of the magistracy, therefore, required speedy and effectual revision. But it was not to the selection of them as regulated by fortune, education, or respectability, that attention should exclusively be paid. He did not mean to enter at present into any observations on the policy of a farther admission of the Catholics into the enjoyment of the benefits of the constitution: that question would shortly be brought forward by abler hands; but, he might state, as a point in which all were agreed, that the existing laws should be impartially administered, and that the concessions already made to the Catholics should be enjoyed to their full extent. Catholics were admitted, by the existing laws, to a share in the magistracy. Now, he would ask, why the number of Catholic magistrates did not bear the same proportion to the Catholic property of Ireland as the Protestant magistrates to the Protestant property? Why, in some counties, where persons of the Catholic persuasion were qualified, were there no Catholic magistrates? Why, especially, were they not called to serve on grand juries where assessments were laid on Catholic property? By not being so admitted, a suspicion could not fail to be infused into the minds of the lower classes, that impartial justice was not dealt out to them—a suspicion than which nothing could be more fatal to contentment and tranquillity. If it were necessary to bring any authority in support of this sentiment, he might appeal to the opinion of one of the greatest and wisest of men. He meant lord Bacon. That great man concluded his instructions to sir John Osborn, who was setting out on an important mission, with the following remarkable words:—"My last advice is, that you attend to impartiality in religious matters, lest Ireland civil become more dangerous to us than Ireland savage!" So important did lord Bacon consider it to keep down religious animosities by an equal administration of the laws.—But though this partiality in respect to the appointment of magistrates, was calculated to excite suspicion among the lower orders; there was another obstruction to the due execution of the laws, not less important—he meant the immense taxation on law proceedings, which shut out from the protection of the law two-thirds of the population of the country. He did not now allude to that system of spoliation and in justice which was practised on the suitors of the courts under the name of fees, and which had happily been exposed and put an end to, but to that obstruction of justice, which the state Lad to answer for by imposing heavy stamp duties. Since the Union the stamp duties on legal pro- ceedings had increased three-fold. To a rich country like England, this system was injurious and oppressive; but, when applied to a poor country, like Ireland, it amounted almost to a denial of justice. The consequence was, that while the stamp duties were increased in nominal, amount, the revenue arising from them was reduced. This did not proceed from an abatement of the spirit of litigation, nor from any diminution of the necessity of claiming disputed rights by legal process, but from an absolute inability to pay for, justice under the heavy duties imposed upon legal proceedings. As an illustration of this statement, he might refer to the singular ingenuity with which the lower classes in the west of Ireland contrived to obtain a legal decision on disputed claims, without giving the revenue the benefit of their litigation—a mode of proceeding which, adopted under the circumstances, confirmed the opinion expressed by sir J. Davis, of the disposition of the people to rely upon the award of law. In the west part of Ireland, when two parties, as was often the case, disputed upon a piece of ground, their singular mode of settling the claim was, to create a riot, to appear on the field, and fight it out. Afterwards each indicted the other before the magistrate, and the person to whom the assistant barrister awarded damages rested in the possession of the land—with a broken head into the bargain. The decrease of the amount of law proceedings, taken in connexion with the increase of the stamp duties, sufficiently proved that taxation among the lower classes in Ireland had become a bar to justice. Another subject connected with magistracy and the administration of law in the country, deserved some notice, he alluded to absenteeship. He was free to confess, that he did not rate so high as some others, its effect on the wealth and resources of the country. In a moral point of view, however, it was to be viewed with regret. But in this, government could do much. Inducements should be held out to reside in the country, by diminishing taxation, facilitating the means of education, and giving to those who remain the full protection of law and government. If honours were to be conferred, they should be bestowed on those who resided in the country, and performed the duties which their situation in Society required.

He now came to that impost which had existed so long under the name of tithes. The Irish population, burthened with taxation, enjoying so imperfect an administration of justice, and suffering from the absence of the proprietors of the soil were also subject to an impost most vexatious in its principle, most repugnant to the persons who paid it, least consonant with the interests of those by whom it was received, enforced by laws more revolting than the impost itself, and forming a burthen which pressed more heavily in proportion as the distress of the times was greater. Cases had arisen in which persons had been obliged to pay tithes, although they had derived no profit from the produce of their farms. Before he proceeded farther he wished to guard against being thought to throw any imputation on the body of the church. He did not complain of the church in Ireland, but of the situation in which the clergy were placed, and of the powers with which they were armed, whether necessary or not. He did not wish to see them forced into a situation in which their sacred office was calculated to irritate the people; and, whilst he professed the highest respect for the church of Ireland, he must say, that he considered that church as intended for the benefit of Ireland, and not Ireland for the benefit of that church The conduct of most of the members of, that church was entitled to the highest praise. He knew of clergymen who had renounced their vested rights for the present year. In many instances, in the county of Cork, they had declared that, they would not receive any tithes from flax. This conduct was most exemplary, but it was unjust towards themselves; and he would not have them so situated as to be reduced to the necessity of depriving themselves of their just rights, whilst litigious clergymen were able to extort the full amount from the poor. It appeared from the returns laid before the other. House, that, during the last six years, there had been tried before the ecclesiastical courts in Ireland, 2,178 tithe causes; and in the civil courts in six counties 7,149. In the county of Kerry alone, the numbers of tithe causes had amounted to 2,195. Assuming the same proportion to have taken place in the counties from which no returns, had yet been received, the number for all Ireland in the period of six years, and exclusive of those tried in the ecclesiastical courts, must have amounted to 17,327. Their lordships would also recollect, that by a recent act of parliament, all cases for the recovery of tithe, under the sum of 5l. might be brought before, and decided by a magistrate. Trials under that act, in some instances, amounted to not less than 100 a week. He had heard from a highly respectable magistrate, that on the average of 100 cases, the sum in question varied from 4d. to 5s. whilst the lowest costs amounted to 3s. He would shortly state the mode in which the tithe was collected. It was the custom in Ireland to send out, at a very early period of the year, two valuators on the part of the clergyman, to estimate the amount of the tithe. These persons made the valuation behind the back of the peasant or the occupier. No communication was made to him fort months after. He therefore remained ignorant of the demand to be made upon him. It might be made at an early season, when the produce of the land coming into the market for the first time, carried a high price, or it might be made several months after, when the crop was found insufficient, and the price, of course, became greatly enhanced. In either case, the unfortunate peasant, was at the mercy of his oppressors. Some of their lordships were, perhaps, happily ignorant of an act of parliament, which stood upon the Statute-book; and which stated, in express words, that if any three farmers in the same parish should set out their tithes on the same day, such an act should be deemed a conspiracy. He did not say that this law was often executed, but this he would say; that if not executed it was unnecessary, and that if necessary, that system must be detestable which was supported by so iniquitous and tyrannical an enactment. He might remind their lordships, that in a country like some parts of Ireland, where the animosities between the clergy and the people ran high, it was not improbable that it might sometimes be put in force. Though the clergy in general were too liberal, and loved justice too much, to avail themselves of the oppressive power placed at their disposal. In a climate so variable as Ireland, it might happen that not only three, but a considerable portion of the parish might be obliged to give notice on the same day. Evil consequences might, therefore, arise, if the clergyman and his parish were in a previous state of hostility. Another objection to the system was, that it was most unequally raised, in some instances potatoes were charged with tithes; in others they were free. It was therefore impossible to say when the peasant might be called upon for them. He was left in a state of uncertainty, with respect to a tax on an article raised, not for speculation or enterprise, but for the very existence of his family.

Having said thus much on the evils of the present system, he would state that a commutation, to winch he could see no objection, would in his opinion be the best cure. He was sure that he should not, in making this proposition, have to encounter, either from their lordships, or from any of the right rev, prelates, the doctrine that tithes were founded upon divine right, because against such an opinion he had the declaration of the church, in the time of Queen Elizabeth, that to say that.—tithes were of divine right, was one, of the greatest errors into which the church of Rome had fallen. But while he maintained this opinion, he would allow that they were entitled to the same protection, and if dealt with, should be as guardedly touched as any other species of property, not only for the sake of the church itself, but for the advantage of the country. Before he could recommend a commutation, therefore, he should be obliged to show, that by it the interests of the church would not be deteriorated. He would keep in view three points. First, he would not recommend any principle of commutation, which, as a lay impropriator, he would not himself gladly accept. Secondly, he would not do any thing which would not leave the church in the same relative state of wealth and respectability which it now enjoyed. Thirdly, he would adopt no plan by which the church would be rendered more dependent on the state than it was at present; and he could assure the right rev, prelates, that if they could devise any measure which could by possibility make it less dependent on the government, he would, in charity to the church, most willingly adopt it. Having thus guarded himself from any suspicion of trenching upon the interests of the church, he would suggest, whether means might not be devised similar to those employed in Scotland, by a sworn jury fixing the price of grain, not for one year, but for five or six years, and thus levying the tithe upon the landlord, and not upon the tenant. With regard to Ireland, he should think it an improvement if the money which was the price of the tithe, and not the corn, were given to the clergy by the proprietor instead of the occupier of the land. The clergy would then come in contact, not with the Catholic population, but with the Protestant landlords, who might be enabled, by raising money equivalent, to the value of the tithe, to buy land and settle it on the church, relieving themselves from all future burthens. He recommended this, not as what he would wish to see carried into effect in England, for he thought nothing could be more objectionable than to render the clergyman a landed proprietor; but he stated it as applicable to the church of Ireland, and as in principle not unknown to the law of England. This species of commutation had been established in the parish of Clifton, where, in the division of a common, there was not only set aside a portion of it for the clergyman in lieu of tithes, but where the sum of 9,000l. had been raised by the landed proprietors to buy land in lieu of the existing tithe, and thus exonerate for ever their own estates from that burthen. A bill to this effect had passed the legislature, and had met with no opposition from the right rev. prelates. Though he would object to the general adoption of such a plan in England, there were peculiar circumstances in the state of Ireland which rendered it advisable. The clergy in many parts of that country were looked upon rather as magistrates than as clergymen, and were engaged rather in executing civil than religious duties. These duties they would be able to perform with more respectability, if they were looked upon as landed proprietors, instead of individuals who depended on the levying of tithes for their support from a hostile population. There was another burthen to which he would allude, and which was not the least odious; he meant the tax levied upon the Catholic peasantry, for repairing and rebuilding Protestant churches. It had been stated, that a new valuation of the first fruits was about to be made. From the best information, he was inclined to believe, that if such a valuation were completed, the result would be, that the funds would be found quite sufficient for the repairing of churches, without placing that odious burthen upon the shoulders of the Catholic peasant. It was a curious fact, that the amount of the first fruits at the present day was smaller than when it was established in the reign of queen Anne. Their lordships, he was convinced, were anxious, if pos- sible, to correct the frightful abuses which it was his painful duty to allude to. If they had any doubt of the existence of those abuses—if they had any doubt of the causes of those evils—he would entreat of them to transport themselves in imagination from the metropolis of this wealthy country, to some remote and desolated parish of that unfortunate land to which he had directed their attention. They would find, that gentlemen who were anxious to reside there, were driven by the distractions of the times, to seek an asylum in another country; while others were deprived, their ordinary means being removed, of those sources of legitimate influence, the exercise of which would be most valuable to those around them. They would see the population, bereaved of their natural protectors, deriving a precarious subsistence, and paying rent, not by the exertion of honest industry, but by a systematic violation of the laws. They would find, a population cut off from the fair administration of justice, and deprived of the right, when accused, of going before a jury of the country. He would show them a population deprived of the fostering superintendance of an upright and impartial magistracy, and suffering under the grinding oppression of the tithe system; and then he would ask their lordships whether, in a state of society so degraded, and almost realizing the words of lord Bacon, "that Ireland civilized, would be more dangerous than Ireland savage," they could oppose the proposition he had to make for the removal of those manifest evils? He hoped the expectation so justly raised last year by the royal visit to that country would be realized; and that the bright splendour of that happy day when his majesty's foot first touched the soil of Ireland would not be lost in a succeeding period of gloom. All minor interests would, he hoped, be sacrificed to the public good, and such wise and persevering efforts be made, as would effectually remedy the evils which afflicted that part of the empire. He would conclude with moving, "That it is the opinion of this House, that the State of Ireland requires the immediate attention of Parliament, with a view to improve the condition of the people, and more effectually to secure its permanent tranquillity.

The Earl of Liverpool

said, he felt the full force of all that had fallen from the noble marquis; and he must in the outset admit, that a subject of greater importance could not be brought under the consideration of the House. The interest he felt in it was augmented by the fair, candid, and temperate manner in which it had been introduced by the noble Marquis; and in discussing the several topics to which the noble marquis had called their attention, he should do so without any disposition, either to introduce extraneous matter, or to aggravate any of those evils in the state of Ireland, or of any other part of the empire, the existence of which they must all admit. In looking at the question, he would adhere closely to the points noticed by the noble marquis; and if he felt any peculiar objection to voting for this resolution, it was, because, under the peculiar circumstances which now existed, he could not see any powerful necessity for, its adoption. He felt, that it would imply a censure on the government, and especially on the noble lord at the head of the government of Ireland, whose duty it was, to devise measures for restoring the tranquillity of that country. It was necessary, in considering this subject, to look, in the first instance, to the real state of Ireland; before they applied the remedy, they ought to endeavour to find out the cause of the evil. It was, in his opinion, owing to the source of the evil having been mistaken, that an effectual remedy had not yet been applied. The real question had not been considered. And why? Because it was always the interest of faction—(he certainly did not apply the observation to any thing that had fallen from the noble marquis)—to give a direction to grievances, entirely different from that which actually caused them—to represent evils as growing out of the measures of government—to trace disturbance and discontent to the conduct of this or that administration. Now, instead of adopting that principle, they ought, in considering the state of a country labouring under such difficulties as Ireland confessedly did, to proceed to the origin of those difficulties. In considering the state of Ireland, or of any other country, there was always a distinction to be borne in mind—first, whether the evils of the state arose out of the situation in which the governors stood to the governed; or, secondly, whether they grew out of the relative state in which the great body of the people, those who laboured for their daily sub- sistence, stood to those who possessed property? On those principles did the situation of every state in the history of the world, from the beginning of time to the present day, depend. If they looked to ancient times—to those studies which employed their youth, w here the contest was about liberty—whether it was between patricians or plebeians, what was the state of the great body of the people? It was that of interminable slavery. If they looked to modern states—to the United States of America, for instance, where the theory of liberty was carried to a degree never before known in the world, it would be found, that in several of the provinces, the great mass of the labouring population was in a state of absolute slavery; and they would find this principle applying, in a greater or less degree, to many countries in Europe, whether it was slavery or bondage to the land, as in the case of serfs, or was recognized under some other form. It might exist under a free as well as under an absolute government, though, in one sense, it might not form a part of the constitution of the state. But the fact showed, that, in considering the state of a country, one question should be particularly inquired into; namely, "What is the relation of those who labour to those who have property; and what is the relation between those who govern, and those who are governed?'' He did not mean to say, that this was directly applicable to the case of Ireland, but he stated it as illustrative of the principle he had down; and in this particular view, he would undertake to show, if the case of Ireland were considered fairly, that nine-tenths of the evils which afflicted. Ireland were not to be ascribed to the measures directed by government, but to the state of society in that country, and the relation of those who laboured, to those who possessed property. He could adduce the whole history of Ireland in support of this position. With the exception of the year 1798, when a conspiracy was set on foot to mature a rebellion, and a French force landed in Ireland for the purpose of overturning the government—all the insurrections in Ireland had been directed against the property, not against the government of the country. What occurred last year might be adduced in proof of this assertion. The noble marquis had alluded to his majesty's visit to Ireland. Their lordships knew the enthusiasm with which his majesty had been received; they were acquainted with the feelings to which his visit gave rise; and yet it was notorious, that the king had scarcely quitted the country before those dreadful disturbances began. He had alluded, on a former occasion, to a letter, the contents of which he was sure, could not be contradicted, in which the writer said, "that if his majesty landed that moment at Limerick (the head-quarters of insurrection), he would be received with the same enthusiasm as had been manifested in Dublin." If their lordships looked at the different proclamations, hand-bills, notices, which had been sent forth in the disturbed parts of Ireland, though they would sometimes find religious difference mentioned (and that in a slight degree), they would hardly perceive any notice taken of the government. This fortified his argument, that it was an insurrection against property, and not against the government of the country. He stated this, because it was necessary to a due consideration of the state of Ireland, and not as matter of gratification; because, if the disturbances were caused by any evils occasioned by the measures of government, it would be much more easy to arrive at, and correct the cause, than to devise a remedy for mischiefs, the source of which was so difficult of approach. If they looked to the constitution of this country, and the manner in which it was enjoyed in the three portions of the empire, they would find that Ireland had her full share of its benefits. In point of prosperity, Scotland was superior to Ireland. Yet, with respect to the popular part of a government, Scotland possessed it in the least, and Ireland in the highest degree. Scotland possessed very little of what could be called popular representation. Now, what was the state of Ireland in that respect? The situation of Ireland as to popular representation, very far exceeded that of England. A noble lord of the soil of high connexions and great ability, had in another place, brought under consideration a plan for a reform of the representation. That measure, he was glad to say, had not proved successful; but if that noble lord had succeeded in attaining his object, even under this new plan, the popular representation of England would not have been so great as the popular representation of Ireland was at the present moment. Out of 100 members that represented Ireland, 64 were returned the counties. They were elected on a principle very nearly approaching to that of universal suffrage; and with respect to the remainder, a very large portion were elected for populous places. Not less than between 80 and 90 of those 100 members were returned, in the strictest sense of the word, by popular election. So that not only had Ireland, in that respect nothing to complain of, but she had as extensive a system of popular representation, as the most ardent reformer could desire. With respect to the laws, Ireland enjoyed what Scotland did not enjoy—at least in its fullest extent. Ireland enjoyed the trial by jury, to the same extent that England did. She had the advantage of able and independent judges; and the correct way in which justice was administered there, might be inferred from the very small number of appeals from that country which were introduced to their lordships' notice. Whether, then, he looked to the general state of the law of the country—whether he looked at what appeared to be the feelings of the people of Ireland—he had a right to contend, that it was not hostility to the British government, that it was not a desire of reform in parliament, that it was not a wish for those changes, which, in moments of distress, they saw agitating large bodies of men in this country, that actuated the people of Ireland, and produced the evils which they all deplored. No. Those evils arose from the internal state of society in Ireland, and the relation in which the great body of the people stood with respect to that portion who possessed property.—The noble marquis had attributed much of the misery of Ireland to the taxation imposed on it, and to the mode adopted for the collection of the revenue. On this part of the subject, he desired the attention of their lordships to a few facts, and he called on them not to forget what the noble marquis had himself admitted, as to the fertility of the soil of Ireland, and the solid wealth of that country. When they considered, that England, with a population of fourteen millions, paid annually 50,000,000l. of taxes, and that Ireland did not pay more than 4,000,000l. of taxes, could it be fairly asserted, that the burthern imposed on the sister-country was excessive or intolerable? The noble marquis had alluded to the diminution of the revenue in Ireland since the war. He admitted the fact; because he admitted that Ire- land had suffered from the excessive diminution of expenditures, in consequence of the peace. The south of Ireland had suffered greatly. During the war, an immense supply for our navy, and for the colonies, was drawn from that quarter. The cause of the failure of the revenue was plain and simple. It arose from the reduction of the expenditure, consequent on peace. The reduction of the expenditure had produced reduction of rents—reduction of rents operated against the demand for commodities—and thus revenue had suffered. But, could it be said, that this country had acted unfairly towards Ireland, with respect to revenue, when it was recollected, that England had taken the debt of Ireland on her own shoulders, and that the interest of that debt was now paid out of the burthens laid on the people of this country? With respect to the laws relating to distillation, a former secretary for Ireland had repealed all the acts that were complained of, and adopted a new system. The effect of this was, such an increase of inebriety in every part of Ireland, that the re-enactment of these very laws was anxiously desired by almost the whole representation of that country, for the purpose of securing its tranquillity. It was, however, a subject of great importance, and one which had been particularly investigated by the commission which was appointed Dist year. It was not, he thought, desirable to meddle with the question, until something permanent could be effected, and with that view it would be necessary to wait for the report of the commissioners.—With respect to the question of absentees, it was one of very great delicacy. As to the question, whether it was the same thing for a country that such large masses of money should be drawn from it, instead of being spent in it, on that question he would not enter, because there was a paramount question which greatly transcended that of political economy—he meant the moral effect of the absentee system. There was no calculating the effect it must produce. In this country, circumstances sometimes prevented the residence of a family on a particular estate for a generation; but what must be the effect, when, from generation to generation, the tenant only knew landlord by name?—As to the state of the magistracy in Ireland, he believed no just complaint was ever made to the lord chancellor or the lord, lieutenant of the conduct of a magistrate, which did not call forth animadversion and punishment. But where there was so much party and faction.—where magistrates were liable, from various causes, to so much misrepresentation—it required the exercise of great prudence and caution, before the strong measure oft striking men out of the commission of the peace was resorted to. The noble marquis had stated, that in the administration of justice, a distinction was made between Catholics and Protestants. As far as he (lord L) was acquainted with the state of the country, he believed that no distinction, disadvantageous to the Catholics, was ever made; and he was sure, if such a circumstance were proved, the offending party would be severely punished. The noble marquis had forgotten to state, that within very few years, measures had been taken, to place the shrievalty in Ireland on the same footing as in England. He had also forgotten to, mention, that, measures had been taken, for, reforming the whole system of grand juries Ireland. Every desire existed on the part of government, to assimilate the law of Ireland to that of England. Let, them look to Scotland before the abolition of heritable jurisdictions, and say, whether her condition was not more unfortunates than that of Ireland now was. If the measures now in progress for the relief of Ireland were aided and assisted by the nobility and gentry in that country, he could not suppose but that they would; effect a progressive improvement in the situation of the people.—He now came to the important question of tithes: and in arguing this question there was one point from which he and the noble marquis must start together. He would not touch one any divine right the clergyman had to tithes, but he would maintain that it was as sacred a right of property as any other. He would say, that the proprietor who had bought an estate, inherited an estate, or had the devise of an estate, had bought or inherited nine parts only. The tenth part was the property of the church or of the lay impropriator, as much as the nine other parts were the property of the purchaser, the inheritor, or the devisee. It stood on the same principle as every other species of property, and they had no right it whatever to touch it. He had no hesitation in saying, that the resident clergy of Ireland were as valuable set of men to Ireland as any other class. He spoke of them not merely as clergymen, but as resident proprietors. The greater proportion were resident in their parishes, and they spent the income raised: upon their flocks amongst their flocks. They did not, he believed, on the whole, receive half their dues; and it was notorious that, where the proprietor of the land paid the tithes, the peasant or farmer to whom the land was let, paid more in addition to his rent, than would have been demanded if he himself paid the tithes. Those who recommended this plan professed to have the interest of Ireland at heart. And what did they mean to do? They wished to adopt a system that would still farther impoverish that country, and make the people pay double what they paid at present; and which, instead of a body of resident clergy, would give them a body of nonresident landlords. Could any thing more unjust be done? The moment the question came to be considered, no honourable mind could entertain the project. He argued, then, that the right was the right of property; and that it was as well exercised as it would be in any other hands. The noble marquis had pointed out the hardship arising from the collection of tithes in Ireland; but the distinction between the two countries in this respect was easily accounted for. A tithe income of 400l. a-year in England would probably be collected from 30 or 40 persons; but the same amount of income in Ireland would be collected, perhaps from 1,400 or 1,500 individuals, of the poorest class. Let noble lords consider the burthen which this threw on the clergyman, the derangement of his affairs which it occasioned, and the endless litigation to which it gave rise. The obvious, just, and natural remedy was this: let the proprietor pay the lithe, and let him make an arrangement with the farmer out of the rent. By adopting a measure that would enable the clergyman to lease his tithes for a certain number of years to the proprietor, the evil would be removed. If the proprietors were willing to be parties to this measure, where was the difficulty? The clergy, he was sure, would consent to the plan; and if there were any obstruction, it must come from the proprietors. Should both agree to it, they might safely come to parliament for its aid and assistance. It was a fact not to be denied, that the subdivisions of property in Ireland arrested the progress of civilization: in this country it was found that civilization was in proportion to the magnitude of estates. In Ireland there were an immense number of forty shilling freeholders; and while this state of things continued, the evils that had been the subject of complaint must be aggravated. Several measures to ameliorate the condition of Ireland would shortly come under the consideration of their lordships. One of them had been last night introduced into the House of Commons, and its object was to make improvements in the present system of leasing tithes. It was not the only plan ministers had in contemplation, but they had thought it advisable to introduce that bill in the course of the present session, leaving the other important branches of the subject to future deliberation. The police bill was another endeavour to improve the condition, and promote the tranquillity of Ireland. Grave objections had been stated to it; but he believed that they were founded upon an erroneous view of its provisions. He could not allow the question to go to a vote without saying a few words upon the delay of which the noble marquis had spoken on the part of the present lord lieutenant of Ireland. The appointment of the distinguished individual who filled the office of viceroy, had received the praise of the noble marquis. Since his appointment, he had been subject to indisposition. There never was an individual who more completely put the whole energies of his soul into a system which he might be disposed to try; but at the same time her would never put his hand and give his sanction to a hasty measure. It was not, therefore to be expected that he would, without due consideration, authorize the introduction of any measure. In addition to his great qualifications to govern Ireland, he was rendered the more fit for the duty by his particular attachment to it. In that country he had first drawn breath—in that country he had first distinguished himself—and he had returned to it with am, anxious desire that the latest acts of his political life should be devoted to the happiness of his native country. Without intending the slightest disrespect to the noble marquis, he should meet his resolution by moving the previous question.

The Ear of Limerick

supported the resolution, and said, that the crisis had arrived; when, if the attention of parliament was not called to the state of Ireland, the most lamentable consequences would ensue. Generally speaking, no better landlords were to be found in the world than in Ireland. The evils of that country were not to be attributed to them, but to the odious system of Excise laws, which barbarized the country. He objected also to the mode in which popular elections were conducted. They excited the ambition of the middling classes, and diverted their attention from the objects to which it ought to be devoted. The noble earl had said, that tithes were as sacred as private property. Admitting the fact, could not parliament, for the general good, deal with it as it had done with other species of private property? He did not, of course, advocate the spoliation of the church; for, in so doing, he should be advocating the spoliation of his own property at no distant day. A just commutation of tithes, would, in his opinion, be most serviceable to the Protestant church in Ireland. He did not see why, the clergy should be less inclined to reside on their livings after the commutation than before it. He could by no means agree, that the property of the country should be made responsible to the clergy for their tithes. At present the landlords got but little, and in that case they would get nothing.

The Lord Chancellor

said, that the small, number of appeals from Ireland did not lead him to suppose that the people were dissatisfied with the decisions of the judges. He had made a calculation of the number of days that would probably be occupied in hearing and deciding the appeal causes now on the list, and he found that the English, Irish, and Welsh appeals might be dismissed in 50 days, while 400 days would most likely be insufficient for those from Scotland only. Why the Scotch were so dissatisfied with the determinations of their judges, he did not pretend to decide; but certain it was, that the Irish did not appear to have the same grounds of complaint. On the subject of tithes, he could not avoid expressing his deep regret that a noble marquis had never spoken of them but under the terms of tax and impost. With the utmost deference, he would tell that noble marquis, that the nine-tenths of the estates belonging to him might be just as fairly so characterised, as the one-tenth that was the property of the clergy. To the noble earl who had last spoken, he would also say, that he had just as much right to interfere with the receipts of the noble earl's estates, as the noble earl had to interfere with the tithes of the clergy. One-tenth of the estates which the noble earl called his own, was no more his property than it was the property of any other man.

The Marquis of Downshire

expressed his disappointment at the manner in which the resolution had been met by ministers. The great objection to tithes in Ireland was, that they were a tax upon all improvements, and therefore retarded the progress of civilization. The noble earl had spoken of the advantages of a resident clergy, but in many instances, parishes were united: consequently the livings were very extensive, and in proportion to the extent, the advantages of residence would be diminished. In one diocese of Ireland, consisting of 210,000 acres, one clergyman held a living of 34,000 acres. Part of this land was waste; but the wide surface of the living of course prevented the clergyman from fully discharging the duties of his office. Ought not this defect to be remedied? He had no doubt that the noble marquis at the head of the government of Ireland was well inclined to turn his attention to the numerous evils which existed in that country; but he was persuaded that the noble marquis would find it difficult to arrive at the truth; for; there was no country in which the truth was elicited with more difficulty than in Ireland. The, Police bill, he was persuaded, would have the effect of disgusting many respectable magistrates, whose attendance at the petty sessions was most salutary. He admitted, that the absence of the great landed proprietors was a serious evil. Much might be accomplished if they would devote a small portion of their time and incomes to the improvement of the condition of their country. If they could not reside, they might appoint agents of education and respectability, who would not be content with being heard of merely at those periods of the year when rents became due.

The Earl of Donoughmore

declared, that he had never heard a speech more devoid of party feeling than that of his noble friend, who originated the present discussion. The noble earl, however had answered that speech as a minister of the Crown, and as if it had been an attack on the government of Ireland. He as highly respected the character of the illustrious person at the head of that government as any man could do. He had witnessed the manner in which that noble lord conducted the affairs of the country which he had so properly been sent to govern; and he had never seen greater talent, more perseverance, so total an absence of any feeling, but of anxiety to do right. Almost the whole weight of the government of Ireland had been thrown on the noble lord's shoulders. He had not, however, flinched from his duty; but had performed it like an honest and enlightened man. Of this he was persuaded, that the noble marquis was not so silly a politician as to begin to act until he knew his ground. He would make himself acquainted with all that it was necessary to do before he did any thing. His character was too high to allow of his risking any indiscreet or prey mature measure, to gratify the impatience of the public, or perhaps some individuals in parliament, who wished to jump at once to a conclusion. The bill that had been recently introduced, so far from being favourable to a commutation of tithes was meant to be an extinguisher upon the very principle. Their lordships had heard a great deal about the magistracy of Ireland. That magistracy was in a bad state, no doubt. The appointment of the magistrates rested principally with the chancellor of Ireland; and if any were recommended by a privy counsellor the chancellor was obliged to pay deference to that recommendation. For any such appointments, therefore, it would be very invidious to blame a chancellor thus situated. But why did not ministers take measures for the revision of the whole commission? God knew that Ireland was already sufficiently unfortunate; but when the bill in question should have passed, she would be, indeed, degraded. For what did it do? It went to give to the government the appointment of constables throughout Ireland; and by this means, it placed the whole population of Ireland under the excessive powers of local magistrates. Granting that in the disturbed districts, this measure was to be palliated as one of necessity, why should it be applied to Ulster and Connaught, for instance? Was the whole country to be needlessly placed under the operation of one and the same measure? He was constrained to say, that the measure would be altogether inefficient.

Lord Ellenborough

said, that the noble earl opposite had told their lordships, that the present distressed state of Ireland was owing, not to the laws of the country, but to the state of society there. Now, he would observe upon this, that he traced the state of society to the statute book of Ireland. Although many of the most objectionable penal statutes had been expunged or repealed, the grievance still existed in the effects which they had produced; and noble lords well knew that, in many cases after the cause had been removed the effects would still continue to manifest themselves. How different would the state of Ireland have been had a motion similar to the one now moved been discussed in parliament at the period of the Union, when they would have been treating with the interests, not of a starving population of seven millions, but of a population of five millions, in a state of comparative prosperity! It would be matter of great regret to him, if anything which might fall from him should have the effect of altering the tone of the debate. But he must declare it to be his opinion that there could be no reasonable hope of permanent improvement in Ireland, under a government constituted as the present government of Ireland was. No such hope could be cherished until all persons resident in Ireland were placed in the same position, in the eve of the law. But, while a majority of the Irish people were placed in a suspicious point of view, as regarded the law—while several of his majesty's ministers were found to concur in the same suspicion which was entertained by the law, it was not in human nature that equal justice should be done between Catholics and Protestants. The noble earl had said, that the state of society in Ireland, and not misgovernment, had led to the misfortunes of the people. He had also said, that Ireland was not taxed in her full proportion, and that she had received all the benefit arising from a participation in the English laws; and he called upon the House to compare the condition of Ireland with that of Scotland. But, in the first place, had Scotland tithes? Had Scotland a hierarchy, professing principles of religion in direct opposition to those of the great majority of the people, by whom they were paid? Did not Scotland enjoy the execution of strict justice? Now, what was the state of Scotland before strict justice did exist in that country? Let their lordships look back to the period when Scotland was first conquered by the parliament. After that event a commission, headed by two of the ablest men in the kingdom, lord chief justice St. John, and sir H. Vane, was sent by the parliament into Scotland, "to inquire what was proper to be done in respect of the existing laws of the realm of Scotland." The defective condition of those laws was notorious. They improved the law, and remodelled its administration accordingly throughout that country. Infinite opposition and discontent were at first excited. The Scots of that day—the Camerons and the Gordons and the Græmes—denounced the members of the commission and those who sent them, as "clanless rascals;" but, happily, with a perfect indifference to the denunciations, the commission pursued its labours; and, in the course of a few years, Scotland enjoyed such strict justice, that the conquering nation could venture to quit it, leaving scarcely a single soldier to enforce the authority of the laws. The learned lord on the woolsack had observed, that, to judge from the few appeals which came up from Ireland, no great evil could exist in the administration of justice in that kingdom. But, unhappily, the question was not as to the administration of justice there between rich and rich, but between the rich and the poor. The evil complained of arose not out of the administration of the law by the judges, but by the magistrates. Did the learned lord really suppose, that it was possible for the poor peasant who happened to be wronged, his possessions consisting of two barren acres of land, to bring his appeal before their lordships, incumbered as it must necessarily be with all the expensive accompaniments of lawyers and solicitors bills, and parliament fees? But the noble earl at the head of the government appeared to think, that tithes possessed one advantage of a public and political nature; namely, that they brought the clergy into contact with the tenant of the soil. But, what sort of contact was it—a forced or a voluntary one? To him it appeared to be much the same species of contact as that between a person beating another with a stick, and the person beaten. His own opinion as to tithes was this that the clergyman, in future, ought to have all that he has at any time had, in the way of tithe; all that he could, in short, possibly have. Whatever the clergyman might have taken, on an average of the last 10 years, he ought to take now: and his future tithes ought to bear the same proportion to the increasing produce of the soil, as the tithe he now took bore to its present produce. Whoever went further than this principle, put a limit to the possibility of effecting a commutation of tithes. It would not be possible to give a sum adequate to the demands of the clergyman, though they might give him a sum equal to what he now received. Unless this commutation, in any bill to be adopted, should be made compulsory on the parties, it would be perfectly ineffectual. The noble earl had thought it necessary to make n laboured apology for the noble marquis at the head of the government of Ireland; and another noble earl (Donoughmore), with no great advantage to the cause which he advocated, had followed in the same strain. But in order to do so, that noble lord had been obliged to throw overboard the two bills which had been lately introduced into the other House, contending that it was impossible they could have originated with the noble marquis who presided over the Irish government. The spirit of departmental government had actuated some noble lords so much, that the government of Ireland was considered precisely in the light of an independent country. The noble earl opposite talked of it as if it was a separate and distinct government; as if the mandate of his majesty's ministers, collectively, did not run to every part of the United Kingdom. He must protest against the doctrine of separate, individual, and exclusive responsibility; as if the ministers altogether were not bound by the act of one of their body; or as if the whole and undivided responsibility insured by it remained singly with the lord lieutenant of Ireland.

The Earl of Darnley

said, that a revision of the magistracy of Ireland might be attended with much benefit, but that the measure now pending could only have the effect of disgusting those who were in the commission. He was a decided advocate for the commutation of tithes in Ireland.

Lord Holland

said, that the motion of his noble friend was, to take into immediate consideration the state of Ireland, with a view to bettering the condition of the people, and the establishment of tranquillity on a firm basis. On that motion the noble earl opposite, in one of the most extraordinary speeches be had ever heard, had alluded to the different states of society, ancient and modern, and had moved the previous question; meaning thereby, as he presumed, that the motion was a proper motion, but that the present was not the proper time for agreeing to it. In fact, however, the moving of the previous question was susceptible of two meanings. Either it might mean, that the original proposition was good, but that the time was not a proper time for acceding to it or it might mean, in the mouth of minister, that it was proper to do what was proposed, but that the House ought to place sufficient confidence in his majesty's government to believe that they would originate some measure to the same effect. If the latter were the noble earl's meaning, he had proceeded very strangely. He had declared that this was no party question; but, having made that declaration, he concluded with a motion, which set the question immediately on a party footing, by placing it on the broad ground of confidence in his majesty's government. As to the other interpretation, namely, that although the proposition was a good one, the present was not the fit time for its adoption, he really thought that parliament had already manifested sufficient patience on the subject. Let their lordships look at what had passed even in the present session. His majesty had hardly retired from the coast of Ireland, and parliament had scarcely met, when, by a message from the throne, the attention of parliament was drawn to what was taking place in Ireland, and strong coercive measures were proposed in aid of the authority of government. Their lordships' consent to those measures was reluctantly wrung from them. They had been told, that the causes of the evils in Ireland lay in the state of society; and that government contemplated measures of relief. Contemplated! A pretty contemplative government it was! It had been contemplating for two and twenty years, during the whole of which period the unhappy people of Ireland had been subject to every species of distress and calamity. What followed the adoption of the measures introduced by his majesty's government? A noble duke (Devonshire) took the opportunity afforded him on presenting a petition praying for the commutation of tithes in Ireland, of addressing their lordships, with all the unassuming modesty belonging to his age and character, but with the consideration and goodness apparently hereditary in his family, and of expressing his entire concurrence in the prayer of the petitioners. The noble earl opposite paid the noble duke many compliments on the occasion, and held out hopes that the subject would be taken into consideration by his majesty's government. With that declaration, his noble friend had been highly satisfied. With respect to himself he hoped he was not very liable to entertain unjust suspicion, but he had told his noble friend that very day that be had some doubts as to the dependence to be placed on the noble earl's statement. He had had much more experience of the noble earl than his noble friend had had. Whenever a question of great magnitude was proposed on the opposition side of the House, the noble earl always dealt with it in one of two ways. He either cried wolf! and exclaimed that the church was in danger—that the constitution was in danger—that, the best interests of the country were in danger; or, on the other hand, he mildly said, "really there is a great deal of truth in what you advance. It is impossible to deny the justice of your principle. The subject is certainly one of considerable difficulty, and may admit of many advantageous modifications. However, you may depend upon it, that I will address my mind to the consideration of the best means by which your object may be carried into effect." Whenever he (lord H.) set his heart on carrying any measure, he greatly preferred the lofty tone of the noble earl to his more placid and gentle strain. A great poet of antiquity, who was said to have understood the female character extremely well—but he would not name the book, because he was sure the right reverend prelates could know nothing about it—had observed, that he never objected to a little scolding, and a little scratching and a little pulling of his hair at the hands of his mistress, because he knew that softer moments were, about to follow. So he (lord H.) felt well satisfied with the excited animation of the noble earl, but be dreaded the opposite tone. He perfectly recollected when the noble earl, on the dissolution of another ministry, some years ago, protested most vehemently against the proposition of that ministry, for what the noble earl called, putting the sword into the hands of the Roman Catholic. He had lived, however, to see that noble earl support an exactly similar proposition. When an hon. and lamented friend of his, he meant Mr. Homer, agitated the bullion question, no one was more decided in his opposition to his friend's principles than the noble earl; yet now the noble earl actually plumed himself upon maintaining the identical principles, which on that occasion, he had unequivocally condemned. It was the same with the sinking fund. The noble earl had declared, that by the integrity of the proposed sinking fund of five millions, he would stand or fall. That sinking fund had been diminished; but the noble earl was immoveable. It was the same with the repeal of taxation. No man could more positively deny at the commencement of the session, that any farther repeal of taxes was incompatible with the safety of the state; and yet his majesty's government had since spontaneously proposed the remission of taxation to a large amount. When, therefore, the noble earl manfully and obstinately resisted any proposition, he (lord H.) felt like a man perched on a rock in the midst of the ocean, who, beholding the billows breaking and foaming around him, was justified in entertaining a hope that the tide might recede, and allow him to reach the main land; but who, when he saw that all was smooth and deep and stagnant, was aware that the level would never alter, and that he must submit to inevitable destruction. It was with this feeling that he had listened to the noble earl's assent to the noble duke's propositions; and the advice which the noble earl had that night given their lordships to postpone acquiescing in the present motion, proved the accuracy of his presentiment. He (lord Holland) deprecated all postponement of the subject. From long experience, he knew, that on most subjects, and especially on the fatal subject of the miseries of Ireland, whenever administration had been trusted to act, nothing useful had been accomplished. The simple question for their lordships to decide was, whether they would proceed at the present moment or not? The noble earl's argument was, that the whole subject with respect to Ireland had been mistaken; that there had been a complete misapprehension, not as to the effects (for they were too evident even for the noble earl to deny), but of their causes. The noble earl denied that the cause of the present discontents was disloyalty; be denied that it was misgovernment. He maintained that it grew altogether out of the state of society, and the conduct of the great proprietors of Ireland. A whimsical doctrine this for one who had so warmly supported the Union! In fact, the speech of the noble earl had been directed rather against reform generally, than against his noble friend's proposition. His noble friend's proposition had no connexion with what was called reform. The topics which his noble friend selected for observation, were the amount of taxation, the administration of justice by the magistracy, and the tithe system. The noble earl had made the question much more general in its character; he had extended it to the state of society, to the cultivation of the lands, to the conduct of the absentees. If, however, the evil was more general than his noble friend had anticipated, surely that was a very odd reason for postponing an inquiry into it! With respect to the question as it respected absentees, he would first observe, that he had no connexion with Ireland of a nature at all affecting his interest. His only sentiment with regard to that country, was a feeling of esteem and admiration for the generous and noble character of its people. But he must say, that even if all were true that was said of the conduct of the absentees, it was most unjust and ungrateful for any Englishman, and above all for any member of an English parliament, who had supported the Union with Ireland, to add insult to injury by such observations. Was it possible, when the local parliament of Ireland was removed and fixed in the heart of the English metropolis, not to anticipate the evil which had ensued? As to the argument which had been deduced from the small amount of the taxation derived from Ireland, it really astonished him. The noble earl said that we only got four millions of revenue from Ireland. But the noble earl ought to know, that the very smallness of the revenue collected frequently proved the extreme oppression under which it was levied. With respect to the argument of the learned lord on the woolsack, that, judging from the small number of appeals from Ireland, there did not appear to be any complaint of the mal-administration of justice in that country, that argument had been so well answered by the noble baron, that it was not worth while to add a single word, except to observe, that the evils complained of by the Irish were not the erroneous decisions of a court of equity, but the ruinous expences of the common law, and the corruption of the subordinate agents of the law, both of which were so excessive as to amount almost to a denial of justice. The contrast which the noble earl had endeavoured to exhibit between Scotland and Ireland had also been most successfully exposed by the noble baron. He was in hopes that the noble Earl would have gone on to speak of the forcing of the tithe system on the Presbyterians of Scotland by Charles 2nd—certainly one of the most disgusting instances of tyranny the world ever witnessed. The noble earl might also have gone on to what followed. From the abolition of episcopacy in Scotland, the tranquillity of that country had gradually improved. With respect to tithes in Ireland, no one wished to abolish them. All that was required was, that they should be commuted. But the noble earl had declared that it was his intention to clog the proprietors with the payment of the tithes. Did the noble earl mean that the measure by which that was to be effected should be compulsory on the proprietors?—[Lord Liverpool replied in the negative]—Then it would not be worth a halfpenny. For, without compulsion, any such proposition would be entirely fruitless. The noble earl called tithes the property of the church. Certainly, they were the property of the church; but, like all other property, they were subject to the regulation of the legislature. Nor had the legislature of former days hesitated in interfering on the subject. The tithe on flax in England had been limited to five shillings an acre. Was that done because the clergy agreed to its being done? By no means. It was done simply because the legislature were determined to encourage the growth of flax. Such was also the case with tithes of minor value. They had been commuted because the commutation would be advantageous to the community. Whenever the advantage of the community, and the advantage of the church came in conflict with each other, he was always prepared to give the whole of the benefit to the community. He knew no power in the ecclesiastical branch of the state, as be knew of no power in the state itself, but that, which existed for the good of the people. Although it might not be expressed in words, such was the true spirit of the constitution England. The time had arrived at which these principles must be acted upon as they respected Ireland. If the ingenuity of man had been exercised in devising a way of paying a church, calculated more than any other to produce at once the instability of that church and the discontent of the people, it would be the mode by which tithes were exacted from the great mass of the population of Ireland, for the purpose of supporting the clergy of a persuasion that did not amount to a fourteenth part of that population. The true way of supporting the Protestant Church in Ireland was, to make it cease to be the interest of the great majority of the people to subvert it. The Irish were a people very susceptible of wrong. Nay, he himself, although warmly attached to the constitution of his country, was by no means sure that he should remain a good subject, if he were compelled to pay a large portion of his substance for the maintenance of a religion which he might think heretical. As to the bill on the subject now in progress it seemed intended to throw obstacles in the way of any satisfactory adjustment. As to the bill for regulating the police, all that we had to do was, to assimilate the provisions in Ireland respecting the magistracy to our own. In fact, we were no longer entitled to decide on that subject. We had made our election. At the time of the Union we had agreed to admit Ireland to the benefit of all our laws. Justice and faith towards the people of Ireland, combined to enforce that principle. If a stipendary magistracy were established in Ireland, in what a state might the British House of Commons be placed, with a hundred members in its bosom, chosen under the influence of such a paid, magistracy! To this alternative, therefore parliament, must make up their minds; either to admit the Irish people to a full participation of all the advantages of the British constitution; or to repeal the act of Union, and restore them to the situation in which they were antecedently placed. If parliament should be compelled to render the act of Union a dead letter—if they should be reduced to the necessity of repealing it—he might recur to the lines which he had quoted when that Union was originally proposed— Mortua quin etiam jungebat corpora vivis, Componensmanibusque manus atque oribus ora, Tormenti genus! et sanie taboque fluentes Complexu in misero, longa sic morte necabat.

The House divided: Contents, present, 35. Proxies, 25–60. Not Contents, present 66. Proxies, 42–108. Majority against the motion, 48.