§ Earl Bathurst.rose to move that this bill be committed, and went into a detailed explanation of the grounds of the measure. He reminded their lordships that, in consequence of being excluded from the Baltic in the year 1809, the country had been thrown back on its own resources. It became necessary therefore to encourage the importation of timber from our colonies, and the duties were arranged with that view; but it was distinctly understood, that that arrangement was not to be permanent, and notice was given that the whole would be revised. The effect of this notice was, that the persons engaged in the trade took alarm, and made large importations, without any reference whatever to any increased demand. In 1817, the importations from America had been only 136,000 loads. In 1818 these 136,000 loads were, without any new demand, increased to 230,000 loads. This was entirely owing to speculation. In the same year there were also large importations from the Baltic. The quantity from the Baltic imported in 1817 was 79,900 loads, which increased in 1818 to 130,000 loads. The quantity both from the Baltic and America in 1817, was 216,000 loads; and in 1818, 334,000 loads. In 1819, from the effect of the notice, the importations from America rose to 249,000 loads; and, in the same year, the amount from the Baltic was 103,000loads, making the whole importation for that year, 352,000 loads. This was a great excess over the year 1817, in which, only 216,000 loads had 882 been imported. From these facts he inferred, that the great importation of American timber had not arisen from the duties, but from speculation, and that the trade in the years 1818 and 1819, was not in a natural state. He described the duties proposed by the bill, and reminded their lordships, that when the committee of their lordships' House made their report, it was conceived right to give some protection to our colonial trade; but he admitted that the bill had gone farther than the report in this respect. The difference was, however, rather in quantum than in principle; and the proposed system would be subject to revision in the course of three or four years, or at any future period. This arrangement he knew would not be satisfactory to those who went the length of thinking that no protection should be given to any trade, and that the true policy was, to buy every thing where it could be got best and cheapest. Few were, however, fond of applying this doctrine in cases which affected their own interests. We did not apply it in the case of linen, nor of iron, nor of corn. Indeed, to apply the doctrine to one particular article, while all others remained unchanged, would be unjust; and this was particularly true with respect to colonial articles, because the whole colonial system was at variance with the system. It had been calculated that the public had paid in increased duties about 400,000l.; but this was not a fair mode of arguing; for the trade, as he had shown, was in an unnatural state when the great importations took place.
The Earl of Lauderdale,after expressing his surprise that there should be so thin a House when a commercial measure of the greatest importance was to be discussed proceeded to oppose the bill. It had been proved in the committee that vessels made of American timber would not last one-half the time of those made of Baltic timber. In the committee he had asked a witness this question—"Suppose a house built of Norway fir were valued at 600l., what would you, as a surveyor, advise a purchaser to give for the same house if built of American fir?" He expected certainly to hear a low valuation; but the witness put no value whatever on such a house; but replied that he could not advise any body to buy it. He regarded the bill as altogether a colonial job. He went over the report of the committee, and ridiculed the exceptions made from the 883 general principle which was laid down in the commencement of that document. It had been shown that the money received for Canada timber only paid the expenses of cutting and sending it to be shipped. The bill, therefore, protected no interests except those of the proprietors of a number of old ships, and of 150,000l. of capital which had been laid out in purchasing new ones. He condemned the preference given to Russia over Norway by the bill, at the very time that Russia was augmenting the duties on British merchandize. There had been numerous petitions from the merchants, all praying for the removal of the restrictions on foreign trade. The petitioners were doubtless happy to hear stated in parliament, and more particularly by his majesty's ministers, principles similar to their own; but their surprise must be great to learn, that the first measure derived from these principles, was one which placed the trade to which it applied in a worse situation than it stood in 1813. On these grounds he moved, as an amendment, "That the bill be committed this day six months."
Lord Ellenborough, though he concurred in the objections urged against the bill, would oppose the amendment, because he thought some little benefit might arise from this measure, and was afraid, were the bill thrown out, that the influence of the shipping interest might be sufficient to prevent any other alteration from being made. He certainly expected that ministers would have acted with more firmness in this business. The effect of the bill would be a premium to introduce the dry rot into every building in the kingdom. If he should ever be again appointed on any committee of trade, he would endeavour to do his duty, but he should enter into it without the least hope of being able to accomplish any benefit for the country.
The Earl of Liverpoolobserved, that their lordships were to consider, not whether this bill did all that could be wished, but whether it did not put these matters on a better footing than they were before? For his own part he thought it must improve the trade by reducing the duty on Baltic timber, from 3l. 5s. to.2l. 15s.; or, considering the additional duty on Canada timber, reducing it in fact to 2l. 5s. Some further measures of protection for the colonial trade also were included in 884 it; and that trade was at all times, subject to certain inconveniencies, which undoubtedly did require some compensation. This was a protection which operated also to encourage our own manufactures; and here he would say, adverting to some of the objections which had been taken to the bill, that he could understand the principle of giving protection and encouragement to our own manufactures and industry, as against those of another country; but he could not understand that principle upon which the encouragement of the industry and manufactures of any one foreign country were to be recommended as against another. That part of the bill which related to the transports, he was certainly not satisfied with; but still it put even that matter on a better footing than heretofore.
The Marquis of Lansdownsaid, that, after the part which he had taken in former discussions upon this subject, he could not help expressing his extreme regret and surprise at the speech of the noble earl. After all the consideration that this question had undergone; after the assurances so often given by the noble earl, that whenever any arrangements should be adopted for the purpose of effecting an alteration in this system, they should be on a complete and permanent scale; after four or five years of peace had been suffered to elapse, upon that very ground, without any thing being done, their lordships were now informed by the noble earl at the head of his majesty's government, that they were to pass a hill, founded, indeed, in; an erroneous policy, but one which established a system a little better than what had hitherto been acted on. The noble earl himself had not attempted to justify it, and had not offered one argument to support even his own qualified recommendation of it.
§ Earl Bathurstsaid, that no arrangement existed to prevent government from revising the provisions of this bill at any future time, if it should be deemed expedient.
§ The amendment was negatived, and the House went into the committee.