Lords Sitting of 2 July 1821

ECONOMY IN THE PUBLIC EXPENDITURE.
The Earl of Darnleyrose in pursuance of the notice he had given. The subject to which he wished to call the attention of their lordships was that of Economy in the Public Expenditure. Upon no occasion had ministers denied the necessity of economy, but they had; never before gone so far as to make the admissions they had within these few days done in the other House. A resolution had, at their own suggestion, been adopted, which, though it differed in words from that which was originally proposed, equally pledged them to a system of economy; and the necessity of economy must be evident to their lordships when they considered that the estimates of this year were, with the exception of the last, larger than they had been during any year since the restoration of peace. What must impress their lordships with the necessity of inquiry was, that, notwithstanding all that was said on the prosperity of the country, an investigation which had lately been made by a committee, of the other House of parlia-

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ment, proved that agriculture, the most important of all manufactures, was in, a most deplorable situation. For this state of distress, the committee say, that, after a long and anxious inquiry, they have been able to discover no remedy. It was plain that if the present rate of taxation continued to press on the farmers, they could not pay their rents out of capital much larger. It might be asserted here, as it had been in another place, that the present distress was not owing to taxation. It had, however, been thought advisable to adopt a measure of relief from taxation which he could not but consider in the light of a tub thrown to the whale—he meant the repeal of the agricultural horse-tax. That repeal would not be a reduction to the amount of 2 per cent on the rental of the kingdom. As a removal of a direct tax on agriculture the measure was certainly beneficial; but it was not direct taxation from which the farmer chiefly suffered, but from that general weight of taxation which pressed upon him, in common with the rest of the community, in various indirect ways. While the value of his produce was failing, the difference in the value of money increased the weight of his burthens. He trusted that the country would always keep faith with the public creditor in whatever manner the money was borrowed; but if agriculture, the main spring of public prosperity, failed, it was impossible to say to what measures the country might be driven. The only resource that remained was, to diminish the expense of the public establishments. If they set about the work of reduction in earnest, five millions might, he thought, be easily saved to the country. The first department to which he should advert was the naval service. On looking over the papers on the table, he could not but perceive that the navy, in point of fitness for war, was at present all that was necessary, and that it might be maintained in a sufficient state of fitness at a less expense. And here he must observe, that since the termination of the war, very great exertions had been made to bring the navy to its present efficient state. The present force, in fitness for sea, was 84 line of battle ships, besides frigates: which far exceeded the force of the other powers with whom this country could be placed in a state of hostility. Under such circumstances, could it be necessary to add to this force the number of ships ordered to be built, which
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amounted to 22? It certainly appeared that a material reduction might be made in the expenditure of this department. He had heard that it was in contemplation to abolish the dock-yard at Deptford; and upon looking at the estimates he found that that would make a saving to the amount of 141,307 l. a year. There was besides a contingent charge for ships in ordinary of 310,000 l., and for rigging and stores 831,000 l., from which a large deduction might be made. In short, it appeared that the country would remain, with respect to the navy, in a state of equal security, if half a million were lopped off from that department. But it would be necessary for their lordships to go much farther than this. The completing of the bason and dock-yard at Sheerness still required, according to the estimate, more than 1,200,000 l., of which not less than 280,000 l. was intended to be expended in the course of the present year. A great part of this expense might be saved. He would propose to allow 160,000 l. for the expenditure of the present year, which would be a saving of 120,000 l. Reducing the whole estimate in the same proportion, a saving of 800,000 l. might be made. With respect to the army, considerable retrenchments might be made. On looking at the estimates, he found the expense of the horse and foot guards 315,000 l. Why, in the present state of the country, was it thought necessary to surround the throne with more household troops than formerly? A diminution of this force might be easily made, which would produce a saving of 80,000 l. The regular cavalry formed a very large force, especially when it was considered that a large body of yeomanry, cavalry was also maintained. If the latter was necessary for the internal police of the country, there surely could be no pretence for keeping up so large a force of the former. He thought the country would go on just as well with the regular cavalry diminished one-fourth, which would produce a saving of 120,000 l. In defence of the great force of infantry maintained, it was contended, that the immense extent of our colonial possessions rendered a greater number necessary than formerly. Making allowance, however, for colonial garrisons, the infantry might be reduced one-tenth, without producing any inconvenience. This would make a saving of 400,000 l. From the estimate for barracks, which was above 260,000 l.,

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he proposed to take 160,000 l. The estimate for the commissariat which exceeded 500,000 l., he proposed to reduce one-fifth, making a saving of 100,000 l. The extraordinaries might be reduced one-tenth, which would also save 100,000 l. With regard to the ordnance, he admitted that it was necessary to have in that department a more forward and extended preparation, with a view to meet hostility, than in any other military department; but those who made economy their object would find opportunities for exercising it in this branch of the public service also. The sale of lands, and of buildings which had been erected in a time of profuse expenditure might be now resorted to with advantage. It would not be too much to expect a saving of 100,000 l. in this department. From the estimate for miscellaneous services he proposed to make a reduction of 10 per cent, which would produce a saving of not less than 200,000 l. He came next to the civil list. It was certainly proper that royalty should be surrounded with all necessary splendor; but in seasons of difficulty nothing could more contribute to make the people bear privations with resignation, than the example of sacrifices being set to them in the highest quarter. Their lordships well knew that queen Anne had, in a time of exigency, made a considerable sacrifice of her income. He did not dispute the propriety of celebrating the coronation in times of prosperity, and would never object to any necessary expense for supporting the dignity of the Crown; but in a crisis of difficulty every practicable saving should be attended to. But there were other parts of the civil list which might be reduced, and in particular the expense for ministers at foreign courts. From this department it would be easy to add 150,000 l. to the savings he had already enumerated. He would next advert to the charge for collecting the revenue. It appeared from the accounts that the expense of the collection was 4,360,000 l. on a revenue of 60,000,000 l., which was at the rate of 7 per cent. In Ireland the expense of collection was double that of this country. It could not be doubted, that with proper management, a considerable portion might be saved. A great expense was occasioned by the emoluments of receivers-general, who enjoyed large incomes without having any duty to perform. It would, he believed, be easy so to reduce the expense of collection, as to save
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1,500,000 l. The noble lord concluded by moving, "That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, praying that his Majesty will be graciously pleased to take into his immediate and most serious consideration the difficulties and distresses of his faithful subjects, and especially of that very important description of them, whose wealth and subsistence more immediately depend on agriculture; and that his Majesty will be graciously pleased to give such directions as to his Majesty's wisdom shall seem most expedient to diminish the public expenditure in all the great departments of the state, both civil and military, as the only effectual means of permanently relieving those difficulties and distresses which, if not principally occasioned, are at least materially aggravated, by the pressure of accumulated taxation."
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that the subject which the noble lord had brought under consideration was one which would require a great deal of their lordships' time to discuss in detail, and there were circumstances in his own situation which would induce him on this occasion to be brief. He should, however, endeavour, in as few words as possible, to place the subject in a point of view which, if not satisfactory to the noble lord, would, he hoped, be so to the majority of their lordships. The noble lord had dwelt much on the statements in the report of the other House on the state of agriculture. An opinion was expressed in that report that no legislative measure could be proposed as a remedy for the evil of which the petitioners complained. He concurred in this declaration. He would also go a step further, and say, that in his opinion inquiries which could end in no practical result were always likely to produce evil. The agricultural class doubtless laboured under great distress, but those who attributed that distress to taxation did not take into consideration the fact that there was not a country in Europe, and even America, in which similar distress did not exist to as great a degree. In Russia, Poland, and in most parts of Germany, the distress was infinitely greater than in this country. With respect to the United States, where taxation was light, greater distress was experienced than in this country. The distress, in fact; was general. It was not owing to any artificial system of this country, but to the artificial state into which the whole world had

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been forced by an extraordinary war of twenty-four years' duration. The artificial situation in which Europe was placed led to exertions greater than ever had been made before; and when things returned to their natural level, the revulsion unavoidably produced the effects which had been witnessed. The noble lord had allowed that some of our manufactures were flourishing, but with regard to others he had not considered the effects which a glut in the market might at particular moments produce on agriculture. It was however indisputable, that the great branches of our manufactures were now flourishing, and the greater part of the rest were far from being in an unfavourable state. In adverting to the situation of the farmer, the noble lord had not taken into consideration the balance produced by the change of circumstances. When he spoke of the expense of the wages of labour, he forgot how that was reduced by the cheapness of provisions. Every evil of the kind in question had a tendency to right itself; and when, in such a, state of things, a cure was atttempted by artificial remedies, the cure not only failed, but the attempt prevented that remedy which would in time have been produced by the natural course of things. As to economy, as far as it could be practised, consistently with the safety of the country, that was a proper and safe remedy. But the noble lord did not do justice to ministers if he supposed them either backward to consider the means of economy, or neglectful of enforcing it when opportunities offered. The estimates of the present year had been reduced 1,800,000 l. under the expenditure of last year. Their lordships would also recollect, that in 1817 a commission was appointed to inquire into the Customs. In consequence of the labours of that commission there had already been a saving of 80,000 l., and measures were in progress for producing a saving of 200,000 l. more. But in all measures of this kind it was necessary to guard against doing injustice to individuals. In enforcing economy, what time had created could not be left out of consideration, and persons who had performed long and laborious services could not be left destitute. These reductions were pursued as rapidly as could, be done consistently with the claims of justice and the interests of the public service. He allowed to the fullest extent the principle of economy
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within those limits. Every retrenchment that could be made ought to be made. The noble earl had stated our present naval force to be 84 sail of the line, and had expressed his opinion, that without any increase it would be sufficient, in case of emergency, to cope with the navy of our neighbours or rivals. But the noble earl must know, that though our force was at present 84 sail of the line, and might be sufficient, it could not continue so, unless repairs were made or new ships built. He must bring into view one thing which the noble earl seemed to have forgotten; namely, that a great proportion of the expenditure of the army consisted in half pay and allowances, which could not be reduced because guaranteed by the national faith. These fixed payments amounted to more than the whole peace establishment of 1792, and would, so long as they continued, prevent us from reducing our military expenditure in the same proportion as we reduced the numerical force of the army. He was at the same time willing to admit, that there existed peculiar circumstances in the present state of the country, to induce us to reduce our expenditure as low as possible—to make every exertion to economise. As, therefore, an address had been carried in another place, representing to his majesty the necessity of economy and retrenchment, and as it might be some satisfaction to their lordships to see a similar resolution on their Journals, he would propose an address in which he believed their lordships would concur, as an amendment on the motion of the noble earl. The noble earl concluded by proposing that, after the words "an humble address be presented to his majesty," the following amendment should be substituted for the original motion:—"to assure his majesty that we have regarded with satisfaction the measures taken by his majesty's commands for a general revision of expenditure in the department of the Customs of Great Britain, and to entreat that his majesty would be graciously pleased to direct a similar investigation to be extended to all the other branches of the revenue, in order to render its collection more economical and its management more efficient. And that, for giving further relief to the country, his majesty would be graciously pleased to direct a more minute inquiry into the several departments of the civil government, as well for the purpose of reduc-

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ing the numbers employed, as with reference to the increased salaries granted during the late war, and since the year 1797, in consideration of additional labour thrown upon individuals, and the change in the value of money. And further, that his majesty would be graciously pleased to direct that every personal saving consistent with the public interest shall be effected in those more extended departments of the public service which the country is obliged to maintain, and more especially in the military expenditure, by a reduction in the numbers of the army, and by a constant and vigilant supervision of all the departments of the state."
Earl Grosvenorsaid, that this was not the first time the noble earl opposite had admitted the distresses of the country, and pledged government to economy. He had heard from him, nearly verbatim, the same observations on several former occasions. The noble earl professed that he could not go along with his noble friend in his proposed reductions, but the noble earl had not pointed out their impracticability. In the justness of the description given by his noble friend, of the distress under which the country laboured, the noble earl concurred; but instead of pointing to its natural remedy, he satisfied himself with finding a parallel for it in other countries. But the distress of other nations furnished no reason why we should not endeavour to alleviate curs by economy; or why our government should not become a government of parsimony instead of profusion. The noble earl stated that this year there had been a reduction of 1,800,000 l. He was afraid that the apparent saving arose from the confused manner of our public accounts. We still owed in unfunded and funded debt 850 millions; and the sinking fund, which was nominally 17 millions, had been reduced in its operation to 4, by borrowing 13 millions for the public service. He was not even sure that there was any thing but a mere nominal sinking-fund. With a funded debt of 800,000,000 l., and a floating debt of 45,000,000 l., we were supporting establishments which could only be justified by the most flourishing state of our finances. At present, every thing in the metropolis wore the appearance of gaiety and prosperity, but the appearance was deceitful; our flourishing condition was a whited supulchre, fair on the outside, but
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within full of rottenness. Meanwhile, all the great interests of the country were suffering; our agriculture was depressed, and most of our other branches of industry languished. We were now in the seventh year of peace; and, allowing for the common, chances of war, we might not be further than as many more from renewed hostilities. Yet we had done nothing to recruit our strength, to lessen our burthens, or to meet with renewed vigour and spirit any fresh attack on our national honour or interests. In the midst of these difficulties the public distress was aggravated by the manner in which the money was spent. He was convinced that the expenses of the coronation would far exceed the estimate at first stated; but this was not his greatest objection. The ceremony was altogether unnecessary, on the only ground on which it could be justified, in the present state of the country. It conferred no new right: it imposed no new obligation on the king or his people. This rendered the ceremony a mere useless pageant; but in the peculiarly unfortunate circumstances of the court, the coronation was not only unnecessary but highly injudicious. He was one of those who thought that even if the law had been clear against the right of her majesty to be crowned, and that though her coronation were merely a matter of grace and favour, yet, that the coronation of his majesty would be an injudicious measure, while she was not allowed to participate in the ceremony. His objection was much strengthened if the law was in favour of her majesty's claim. He could not but allude to a report which he had heard—that all the troops from the neighbourhood were to be called into the metropolis on the occasion. If this was true, he reckoned it an insult on the people of this country. Could his majesty not proceed in safety from the hall to the abbey, except through files of soldiers? Was a suspicion so repugnant to the feelings of Englishmen to be entertained as that his majesty could not trust himself among his people; that in being surrounded by his subjects, he was surrounded with assassins and cut-throats? Though he would have preferred his noble friend's motion, he would rather agree to the amendment than have no address.
Lord Melvillesaid, he would hot dispute that 84 sail of the line in time of peace was a sufficient naval force; but the

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noble lord would see by the papers on the table, that only 40 of these could be reckoned durable. The expenses had been reduced last year, and would be more so in the ensuing. The works at Sheerness would be finished next year, and then a reduction of one-half of the expenditure might be looked for.
The Earl of Carnarvonpreferred the motion to the amendment, because it was most fair and manly, and expressed most plainly the objects intended. But his principal reason for rising was, not to advert to what had passed in debate, but to what was the cause of the enormous distress under which the agricultural and other interests laboured. How did it happen, that after so long a period since the peace, and when the evil seemed to have reached its maximum, we had been plunged into fresh embarrassments, and seemed falling into another abyss? He would answer the question: we were suffering because, having long used a deteriorated currency, and contracted a great nominal amount of debt in that currency, we had now restored the circulation to its ancient metallic standard. Coupling the operation of the bill for restoring cash payments with the progress of our national distress, the connexion between them would be found to be that of cause and effect. We must recollect that in passing this bill we had practically added, by one stroke of the pen, 200,000,000 l. sterling to the enormous amount of our national burthens. If their lordships could not retrace their steps, and establish a standard more conformable to that which had existed during the twenty years in which the national creditor acquired his mortgage on the national property, the recoil of the landed interest on the public creditor would be dreadful, and the latter would suffer in his turn that distress which was now the portion of the former. But if they had gone too far to recede, the only other plan that could be suggested was, to reduce our taxation to an amount commensurate with the increased value of the currency, or, in other words, increased pressure of taxes. If they wished to save the country from this enormous distress, they must not think of doing so by little savings, but by a reduction equivalent in amount to the change operated by the Cash Restoration act. While he stated this change in our circulation as the gigantic cause of our sufferings, he called upon the House to
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consider the consequences, in a constitutional point of view, of destroying by its means the aristocracy of the country—the gentlemen and the yeomanry of England, on whose existence our institutions alone could rest. The monied interest had been formed by the calls of our finances; they could be removed; they were inhabitants of this or of any other country; but the stability of our institutions, and the safety of the throne itself, depended on our agricultural population, on the adscripti glebœ. He would give his vote for the motion; but he was free to say, that no suggestion of economy which he had heard was sufficient, in his view, to counteract the operation of the Currency Restoration act.
Lord Calthorpecould not help thinking, that after the candid manner in which the question had been met by the noble earl at the head of the Treasury, his noble friend must feel that his object had been obtained, and that consequently he would not press his motion to a division.
The amended Address was then agreed to.