Lords Sitting of 21 February 1821

FOREIGN TRADE—COMMERCE OF THE COUNTRY.
The Marquis of Lansdownrose, in pursuance of notice, to move the re-appointment of the committee of last session, or rather of a new committee, to consider the state of our Foreign Trade. In doing so, when he recollected the general concurrence of opinion which prevailed last year, he felt it would not be necessary for him to go into those details to which he had then been induced to direct their lordships' attention. But, though he did not think it necessary to

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travel over the ground he had last year taken, it appeared to him not improper to advert to some petitions which had been presented to the House on the state of the country, and in particular to the dissent expressed from the propriety of that specific limitation of the inquiry which had last year been adopted on his motion, and which he should now again propose. He wished to call the attention of their lordships to what appeared to him to be the true causes of the distress which was so generally complained of; because, if he were right in the opinion he had formed, those causes were so obvious, lay so much upon the surface, and were so little abstract in their nature, that the mere statement of them would at once show that their lordships were relieved from the necessity of appointing any other committee than that which he was about to propose, and that they could only be required to proceed with respect to them as they would upon any other admitted facts. He was also the more induced to enter into this explanation, as the noble earl opposite had expressed his intention of communicating some information on the same subject. Any person that had kept his attention fixed on the events which had passed during the last thirty years on the great theatre of the world, would have no difficulty in understanding how the present state of things had been produced. It was evident that, for a long period of years, a large portion of the capital of this country had been drawn from the subject, and made a part of the annual expenditure. The effect of the capital thus expended was, to cause a great demand, not only on the part of the government of the country, but on that of those who lived on such an expenditure; and the effect of such a demand being to create supply, a great supply of manufactured articles was produced in the country. Not only was the capital expended, but it was done through the medium of a circulation, which having no fixed standard, lent itself with elasticity to all the operations of speculators. The time of correcting the evils of such a circulation, and of restoring a fixed standard, having at last arrived, although it might have been possible for the legislature to defer it longer; there remained nothing but a load of immense taxation on the one side, and a superabundant supply on the other, whilst the country re-
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turned, not only to a fixed standard, but to one contracted and diminished. Unless this statement could be controverted, he could hardly conceive that the House would think a committee necessary to inquire into the cause of the present distress. It would be only deluding the people to lead them to believe that any good could be attained by an inquiry which would travel out of those great operating causes. Whilst they continued to operate, no adequate remedy could be found. Painful as was the admission, yet it was certain, that no prompt remedy to the existing distresses was to be expected; more particularly to that part of the distress which pressed most heavily on agriculture; because it was impossible to connect it with the state of commerce. Whether the chief cause of the sufferings of the agriculturists were, as the noble earl opposite maintained, an excessive production, or as he (the marquis) contended, a decreased consumption, or whether both of them were partly right and partly wrong, it was impossible that the state of the Corn Laws could have any share in producing that distress. It was impossible, that in contemplation, that' at some future period, if the price of com rose to 80 shillings, Foreign importation would be allowed, farmers should keep down their corn to 50 shillings per quarter, and thus speculate themselves out of their profits and capital, for fear of distant contingency. It was therefore clear, that no alteration needed to be made in the Corn Laws; and that none which could be made would have the effect of affording any remedy to the agricultural distress. That distress arose from the state of the home market, which laboured under the pressure either of a superabundant supply, or of a diminished demand. He should therefore feel himself to be acting very wrong if he held out expectations of advantage from any other measures than those to which he was now about to allude. But the question put by the petitioners was "Is there no remedy at all?" That there should be no prompt and ready remedy for an evil which had been growing up for years, could be no matter of astonishment to their lordships, nor to the thinking part of the country. But though no prompt remedy could be expected, some might be found in the gradual progress of economy and retrenchment. The natural remedy to a state of things which had

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called out a great capital, could arise only from a free distribution of capital and produce. Without such a distribution, no remedy was attainable. It was therefore necessary to remove every species of restrictions which operated against that free distribution; to give every facility to capital to dislodge itself, and to break its large masses into divisions which would feed and support different branches of employment. This was the only mode in which their lordships could hope to provide a remedy for the present distress. Now, the impediments which it was necessary to remove, were, with respect to our Foreign trade, the restrictions under which it laboured; and with respect to our Home trade, the taxes which it had to pay, and each of which had the effect of a legislative restriction on that portion of capital. The pressure of taxation was felt in every branch of manufacture, and hence the necessity of a rigid economy, in order to render the repeal of oppressive taxes practicable. The repeal of taxes belonged to the other House; but still he trusted that questions which related to the means of easing the people of their burdens would never be alien to the minds of their lordships. With respect to Foreign trade, however, the cause was different. It had long been the policy—a most mistaken policy—of this government to impose restrictions on certain branches of Foreign commerce. The effect of these restrictions was, to oppose to Foreign commerce the same sort of impediments and embarrassments, that taxation presented to the Home trade. Their tendency was, to force trade into channels the most unnatural and unprofitable to the country. On this subject, it was not necessary for him to go into detail. Indeed, were he to judge from the sentiments expressed in that House last year, and from what had passed in the committee, he should be sanguine as to the enforcement of the principles on which he thought it was the duty of the country to act. But the difficulty was not so much with regard to the general principle, as to the carrying it into practice. In the present enlightened times, the admission of the principle, that restrictions on trade were injurious was easily obtained; but the moment it was attempted to apply that principle in practice, a formidable resistance was presented by various interests. Science had made such progress within those walls,
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that there was no fear of the exploded 'doctrine of restriction being maintained in that House. But to any measure which parliament might take to benefit Foreign trade much opposition was to be expected from numerous interests. The merchant, whose trade might be affected by the removal of a restriction, the ship-owner, the manufacturer, all would put in their claims, and all too would find them supported. It happened indeed, that every interest had been well supported in parliament except that of the unfortunate consumers, who composed nine-tenths of the population. Every favour, however, which was granted to other interests, was in fact taken from this class; while every arrangement which would be an advantage to it, would be an advantage also to the country. It was the interest of the consumer, therefore, that their lordships, in any regulation which they might make, ought chiefly to have in view, without at the same time neglecting that attention which was due to every other interest. He knew there had been persons who had maintained that the various acts of parliament imposing restrictions had been the foundation of the commercial prosperity of the country, but he, on the contrary, thought, as had been well said in another place, by one whose alliance on this question he was glad to have, that the trade of the country had flourished in spite of them all. He would now move for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the means of extending and securing the Foreign trade of the country.
Lord Ellenboroughregretted that he should have occasion to differ with the noble marquis; but he could not entertain the same views of the effect likely to be produced on the existing distress by the reduction of taxation. The utmost practicable reductions could not be to such an amount as to be felt as a remedy. There was one mode, however, of affording considerable relief. That mode consisted, not in the removal of the taxes, but in their more equal distribution so as to press more lightly upon manufacturers. He might appeal in support of his opinion to the report of the committee of last year on the Timber Trade. In what state had the committee found the duties on that trade? The duties on logs were higher than those on manufactured timber. Those on Norway deals amounted to 60 per cent, and those on Petersburgh

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deals to only 30 per cent. The same Norway deals paid an import duty of 11 l. in Ireland and of 20 l. in England. When such irregularities had been discovered in one branch of trade, there was no doubt but that if the same research were carried into the whole of our commercial system, such a new arrangement and distribution of duties might take place, as would afford efficient relief to manufacturers, without diminishing the receipts of the Treasury.
The motion was agreed to, and a committee appointed, consisting of the same members as that of last year.
The Earl of Liverpoolrose to move that certain accounts be laid before the House, but did not mean to enter into any details on the state of the commerce of the country, and, least of all, on that great fundamental branch of industry agriculture; but he was anxious that the House should, as far as it was possible, know what was the real state of the case with respect to consumption in order, that when they came to discuss the question, they might not be ignorant of the facts connected with it. In the situation he held, he had thought it his duty to direct Ids attention to this subject, and to collect together all the information that could be obtained relative to it. The view of the subject which the papers he intended to move for would give, would not vary much from that which he had taken on the first day of the session, (when a difference arose between him and the noble marquis.) He had then stated, that one great cause of the public distress was an excess of production. He admitted that the causes to which the noble marquis had alluded might have their effects, but the noble marquis had also stated, that diminution of consumption was a more probable cause than over-production. He had endeavoured to obtain the best information in his power on the subject. With regard to that article which was the most important criterion of consumption, he meant bread, he had no means of obtaining information capable of leading to a conclusion which could be regarded as any thing like correct. But, from the manner in which the revenue was collected, their lordships had the means of accurate information on all the other great articles of consumption. It would be found that with respect to the Excise, the increase was great. He would not found his calculation on the value of
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the articles, because that was subject to variation, but on the quantity, which subject to one qualification, was more certain. The qualification he alluded to was, the defalcation which might be supposed when, produceded by smuggling; but that, so far as might be calculated on, would make the consumption greater. He would take his estimate of the consumption from an account of the quantities of several articles charged with duties of Excise in each of the last four years, ending the 5th of January 1821, and a comparison of the last year, with an average of the three preceding years. The articles were beer, candles, coffee, hides and skins, malt, pepper, salt, soap, British and foreign spirits, tea, tobacco, wine, and sugar. He would move that the returns of these articles be laid on the table; but in the meantime he should state to their lordships what he understood would turn out to be the quantities of the different articles and the general result of the comparison:

Strong Beer

Average number of barrels on which the Excise duty was raised in the three years ending in Jan. 1818, 1819, and 1820

5,356,000

For the year ending Jan. 1821

5,599,000

Making an increase of

243,000

Table Beer.

Average for the three years ending Jan. 1820

1,447,000

For the last year

1,519,465

Making an increase of

72,465

Candles.

lbs.

Average for the three years ending in Jan. 1820

79,810,409

For the last year

88,350,000

Making an increase of

3,539,591

Coffee.

lbs.

Average for the three years ending in Jan. 1820

7,569,000

For the last year

7,019,000

Making a diminution of

55,000

Hides and Skins.

lbs.

Average for the three years ending in Jan. 1820

46,219,000

For the last year

44,702,000

Making a diminution of

1,517,000

Malt.

Quarters.

Average for the three years ending in Jan. 1820

23,289,000

For the last year

24,511,000

Making an increase of

1,222,000

Salt and Rock Salt.

Cwt.

Average for internal consumption during the three years ending in Jan. 1820

1,936,000

For the last year

1,981,000

Making an increase of

45,000

For Exportation.

Cwt.

Average for the three years ending in Jan. 1820

861,247

For the last year

1,199,000

Making an increase of

537,753

Hard Soap.

lbs.

Average for the three years ending Jan. 1820

69,474,000

For the last year

73,765,000

Making an increase of

4,291,000

Soft Soap.

lbs.

Average for the three years ending Jan. 1820

4,569,000

For the last year

5,187,000

Making an increase of

618,000

British Spirits.

Gallons.

Average for the three years ending Jan. 1820

5,047,000

For the last year

6,575,000

Making an increase of

1,528,000

Foreign Spirits—Rum.

Gallons.

Average for the three years ending Jan. 1820

2,790,000

For the last year

2,757,000

Making an increase of

33,000

Foreign Spirits—Brandy.

Gallons.

Average for the three years ending January 1820

866,000

For the last year

1,143,000

Making an increase of

277,000

Tea.

lbs.

Average for the three years ending Jan. 1820

22,186,000

For the last year

22,542,000

Making an increase of

356,000

Tobacco:

lbs.

Average for the three years ending Jan. 1820

11,847,000

For the last year

11,680,000

Making a diminution of

167,000

French Wines.

Gallons.

Average for the three years ending Jan. 1820

977,000

For the last year

916,000

Making a diminution of

61,000

Wines—not French.

Gallons.

Average for the three years ending Jan., 1820

18,440,000

For the last year

16,300,000

Making a diminution of

2,146,000

Sugar.

Cwt.

Average for England alone during the three years ending Jan. 1820.

3,117,000

For the last year

3,413,000

Making an increase of

296,000

Thus, the papers which he should move for would show that on almost all the great articles of consumption, coffee ex-
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cepted, an increase had taken place. As he had already stated, there was no means of obtaining a return of the quantity of bread consumed: but when it appeared that there was an increase in all the other great articles of consumption, was it possible to doubt that that important one had also increased? There appeared then to be no ground for the conclusion which the noble marquis had drawn of a diminished consumption. He did not bring forward the information, for the purpose of denying the existence of distress. He brought it forward to establish the fact—and a consoling fact it was—that the comforts of the people could not have very much diminished, when the consumption of many of those articles on which their comfort depended had increased. He agreed with the noble marquis, that the distresses of the agricultural part of the population could expect no alleviation from any change in the existing corn laws. Whether the system of corn laws established some years ago was wise or otherwise, he would not stop now to inquire. He wished it only to be considered whether by altering these laws, even allowing them not to be the most politic, we should not increase our difficulties, and whether a continued change even for the better might not be more dangerous than an adherence to a system which was not originally the best. Entirely concurring with the noble marquis, that the object of every wise statesman ought to be, the removal of restrictions from commerce and industry to every practicable extent, and believing with him that our commercial prosperity had been brought about rather in spite of such restrictions than by their operation; still he did not think that they ought to be hastily or inconsiderately removed. Whatever evil belonged to restriction, constant fluctuation was, in his opinion, still worse. The different interests of society, when placed under laws that were not speculatively the best, might adjust themselves to their situation and to each other; but no man could tell what to do in constant fluctuations, or how to accommodate himself to continued change. He might go the length of saying that in some countries where the laws with respect to the trade in grain were more liberal than in this, they were not productive of the same advantage by their want of steadiness. In those countries, though theoretically better in many instances, they

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were liable to be changed by the operation of favour, caprice, ignorance, or intrigue, and thus no man could place any reliance on them so as to square his conduct by their provisions: but in this country, though the law might not be the wisest, those who were affected by it could calculate upon its continuance, and thus could establish their business and credit in conformity with it. It was not his intention to enter at large into the question of the agricultural distress; but he would say that the circumstances which had forced great tracts of waste land into cultivation, and had thus produced a greater supply than would otherwise have been produced, had very much increased the difficulties of the country. This was an opinion which he had formed after extensive inquiry. He allowed that there were other circumstances which, by their operation, contributed to our agricultural embarrassment. One of these he alluded to with pleasure; namely, the increase of the importation of grain from Ireland, which last year had amounted to 351,871 quarters, being more than the average importation from all quarters of the globe till a recent period. Though this importation hdd been at first productive of difficulties to one part of the empire, it would ultimately promote the prosperity of the whole. A noble baron had given it as his opinion, that considerable relief might be obtained by a change in our modes of taxation, and in the manner of distributing the taxes. Whether the present modes of taxation were the best he would not stop to inquire. It had been his opinion that an increase of the direct taxes would have been beneficial, and therefore he was for preserving for some time the income tax. But it was entirely a different question whether it would now be advisable to alter the existing system. A change in one instance might produce such a general derangement as would more than overbalance the contemplated advantage. The noble earl concluded by moving for the accounts to which he had referred.
Lord Erskinedeclared that he felt great disappointment at the speech of the noble earl. He did expect to have heard much more on the present occasion, as to the best mode of diminishing, if not of remedying, the severe evils under which the people were labouring. The noble earl, amidst his enumeration of small beer, candles, soap, &c. had said nothing of the
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real cause of the distress under which the country was labouring. That cause was the war of above twenty years duration, which had created a stock of 7 or 800 millions, the proprietors of which, having lent their money to carry on the ruinous contest, were now to be paid by the industry of the people, and more especially of the agricultural classes, without on their part contributing to the general sacrifice. The noble earl had said nothing about the poor-rates, that other source of distress to the landed interest, the evils of which had frequently been aggravated by acts of the legislature. The poor laws, in their original institution, were intended to provide only for those who were so weak or infirm as to be unable to work; but now a man could come and say—"I can work; I have children who can work likewise; but I can find no labour, and I call upon the parish to support me." Thus, those who could find no work swallowed up the means of the industrious. He entreated their lordships to take these things into their consideration, and suggest some means, not of giving cheap bread, but of increasing the wages of labour. It was far better for the poor to be employed: and, when employed, it did not matter much—at least up to a certain point—whether they had cheap bread or not.
Lord Kingsaid, that formerly it was the practice of ministers to come down to the House with the annual accounts: now they came down with an annual paradox. One year our distress was owing to a transition from war to peace; and another it was owing to excess of production. Swift, in all his expositions of the follies of mankind, never described any thing so absurd as this last paradox. If there had been a deficiency of supply, the noble earl would have found our distress was owing to that case. When the noble earl mentioned that there had been an increase of production and of consumption, would he likewise say that there had been—the necessary consequence of it—an increase of capital? No; there had been no increase of capital: there had been no increase in the quantity of lime used on the land: there had been no increase in the quantity of agricultural labour. As for the cause of our distress, we need look no further than to the circumstance, that we had been for twenty-five years engaged in war, and that we must now pay for it, aggravated as its burthen had been by a

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change in the currency. While there had been a destruction of capital by this means, there had been an increase of population. This being the disease, economy and retrenchment were the only remedy.
The Earl of Darnleydid not think that any legislative interference could do good. The only remedy for our distress would arise from retrenchment of expenditure and a diminution of taxation.
Earl Greyexpressed the extreme disappointment with which he had listened to the noble earl, who, from figures and official documents, endeavoured to draw an inference which was contradicted by every thing in the country. He well remembered that the noble earl had, some years ago, by the production of similar documents, endeavoured to draw the inference that the Bank paper was not depreciated; he now, however acknowledged that it had been so, and no doubt the same falsification would attend his inference of the present night. The assertion of the noble earl that the continued consumption proved that the comforts of the people were not diminished, could be refuted by every man in the kingdom. Nor did he believe that there was the excess of production supposed by the noble earl; for he understood that the last crop was rather under than over the average. The causes of all the evils which the country endured, were obviously the profuse expenditure of the late war, and the burdens thereby imposed upon the country. The alteration in our currency was also a main source of the evil, for let them turn and twist it as they would, the fact was, that we had contracted in depreciated paper an immense debt, which we were unable to pay in our restored currency. The situation of the country appeared to him to be frightful. A noble friend of his had said, that we must not for a moment look at a breach of public faith. So said he. But there was an ancient law maxim, which was equally applicable to other subjects:—"Nemo tenetur ad impossible." It was difficult to repress the apprehension, that we were much in the same situation in which France, at the time of the Revolution, was declared to be by a celebrated man, namely, "on the verge of bankruptcy." Distressed as the people were, and alienated from the government by a long course of the most impolitic conduct, there was nothing to which we could look
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with the slightest hope of relief, but the most unsparing retrenchment.
The motion was then agreed to.