HL Deb 05 February 1821 vol 4 cc350-60
Earl Grey

rose, to present a petition from the merchants, manufacturers, and traders of Birmingham. This petition had been agreed to at a meeting held in August last. The meeting was most numerous and respectable. He was sorry to find, that the statements it contained were completely at variance with those which had been conveyed to parliament from authority, and which had, on the first day of the session, been re-asserted by the noble earl opposite, relative to the improved state of manufactures and the general prospects of amelioration. To that general improvement Birmingham certainly was an exception. The petition stated, that the master manufacturers of Birmingham could not employ their workmen for more than three or four days in the week, and that the wages not being sufficient to support them, they were obliged to apply for assistance to the parish. The remaining facts stated in the petition were of the most distressing kind. A committee had been appointed to inquire into the distress existing in the town; that committee was divided into sections, each of which investigated the state of a particular district. From the information thus collected, it was evident, that a diminished consumption had taken place in Birmingham of all the necessaries of life to the extent of nearly one-third. This diminution was particularly apparent in butchers' meat, beer, and in bread. And even this diminished consumption was supported chiefly on credit and by the workmen pledging their property. Mr. Ryland, who had canvassed Hill-street district, ascertained, that the trade of the publicans in beer had diminished one-third. Among the bakers he also found a great falling off. With the butchers the complaint was still greater. Those who formerly bought the best pieces of meat were now content with a very inferior kind. What was before considered offal, or sold only in lots, was now purchased by persons whom nothing but distress would have driven to use it. The grocers stated, that their trade was gone. The workmen had been driven to pawn their furniture and clothes for food. Linen and every thing that could be spared had been pledged, to keep up appearances. These were facts which required the serious attention of parliament. If the investigation had been carried back to the distance of five years, their lordships might have entertained some doubt whether the distress had not been occasioned by a falling off in the demand for those articles which were chiefly in request during the war; but this could not be the case, as the inquiry extended no further than to the year 1818. When he heard the noble earl, on the first day of the session, state, that a general improvement had taken place in the manufactures of the country, he had hoped, that the town of Birmingham had participated in that improvement. He thought it right, therefore, before he presented the petition, to make some inquiry on this point. The result of the information he had received was, that though there was some additional demand, as usual at this season of the year, and some increase occasioned by some speculation for the South American market, yet, that the trade of the town was, on the whole, worse than it had been at the time the petition was signed. Iron articles had undergone a depreciation of from 20 to 25 per cent; brass goods, from 5 to 15 per cent.; plated goods a similar depreciation, and various other articles a depreciation of 20 per cent. He was further informed, that the poor rates had greatly increased, and that that increase was occasioned by the reduced rate of wages. What degree of improvement might have taken place in some parts of the country he did not know; but, as to its being general he could not but entertain very great doubt. It had been said, that a considerable improvement had been experienced in Lancashire. He believed, that there was there an increase of employment and wages, which rendered the situation of the workmen in the cotton manufactories in that county better than it had been; bathe was far from being assured, that the improvement in the state of Lancashire was general; on the contrary, he was convinced, that in consequence of the great reduction of prices a considerable diminution must have taken place in the manufacturing capital of that county. His doubt as to the assertion of any essential improvement rested on his knowledge of the general distress which prevailed through all parts of the country with which he was acquainted, and particularly with respect to agriculture; but, the most serious consideration of all was, that any appearance of increase in the trade of the country could not now be relied on as evidence of prosperity; for foreign commerce had assumed an aspect totally different from that which it wore in former times. It was no longer founded on a regular demand, and on orders received from abroad, but upon the speculation of what might be the demand of any new market which arose. The natural consequence of this state of things was an extraordinary excitement at one time and an extraordinary depression at another. To what this state of the trade of the country was owing was a question which might occasion difference of opinion, but it was indispensably necessary to ascertain the cause, and to that object their lordships' most serious attention ought to be devoted.—It had been stated, on a former occasion, by the noble earl opposite, that the agricultural distress had been occasioned by an increased production, which the noble earl had maintained was proved by the diminu- tion of price. Now, he should very much doubt, that increased production was the cause of distress. It. was true there had been two favourable harvests; but, so far from increased production having caused the distress, the farmers, from partaking in the general distress, had not been able to cultivate so well or so extensively as formerly. It followed, therefore, that instead of an increase, there was great reason to fear a diminution of production. He thought the main cause of the distress was sufficiently obvious. By the last Gazette he saw, that the average price of corn was between 54s. and 55s. per quarter, which was something less than 7s. a bushel. Now, with the taxes with which the farmers were burdened, how could they be able to cultivate the land? The effect of the excessive taxation was felt in manufactures, agriculture, commerce, and every branch of industry. The noble earl had at first maintained, that the commercial and agricultural distress was occasioned by the transition from war to peace; and next, that it was owing to the failure of the American market. This last cause was rather singularly brought forward at the very time that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was assigning another and a far more probable one in the House of Commons; namely, the measures taken for the resumption of cash payments. That the causes were various, he did not doubt; but still he held the pressure of taxation to be the principal, aggravated as it was by the present embarrassed state of the finances. The difficulties of the country, he was aware could not fail to have been increased by a vitiated currency which had been depreciated five or six per cent, and by the endeavours made to restore it to par. That endeavour had had all the effect of an additional taxation.—Having said thus much, it might be expected, that he should state, why he did not mean to move for a committee of inquiry. In the first place, the state of his health would not permit him to give constant attendance to a committee. That was a labour which he could not undergo, but he would be very willing to attend as much as he possibly could, if on the motion of any other noble lord, the House should think fit to appoint a committee. He must also confess, that though he thought the authority of parliament always properly employed, when inquiries of this kind were instituted; yet he had found from experience, that very little good arose from such investigations, unless they were undertaken under the sanction of the existing government. If he wanted any proof of this, the result of the committee which was, on the motion of his noble friend, appointed last session to inquire into the state of foreign trade, would be sufficient. After much consideration, that committee made a report on one point only; but, he apprehended their lordships were not at this moment much nearer to any adjustment on that particular point than they were last session; for he understood it was now thought necessary, by his majesty's ministers, to wait the result of the investigation of another committee, to be appointed by the House of Commons, which committee had not yet been appointed. He hoped, when the report of that committee was made, that the government would then be prepared to give a full consideration to the general distress of the country.

The Earl of Liverpool

said, he could have no objection to the referring of the petition to the committee, for the re-appointment of which the noble marquis had given notice, or to any mode in which the subject could be fairly brought under discussion. But what he more particularly rose to notice was, a misapprehension which the noble earl had made respecting a paragraph in the Speech delivered from the throne, on the opening of the session. The noble earl had conceived, that the paragraph was so worded as to imply, that a general improvement had taken place throughout the whole country. This certainly was not the case; the words of the Speech were—"that a considerable improvement has taken place within the last half-year, in several of the most important branches of our commerce and manufactures." After-Wards, referring to the state of the country, it was stated "that in many of the manufacturing districts the distresses which prevailed at the commencement of the last session have greatly abated." There was not, therefore, in the wording of the Speech—and he was equally confident in what he had stated on the first day of the session—any assertion of a general improvement throughout the country, nor had he ever maintained, that very considerable distress did not affect the agricultural and manufacturing interests. With regard to Birmingham arid the surrounding districts, he was aware, that, from whatever cause it might pre- ceed, there was a great depreciation of prices, and consequently considerable embarrassment. But as to that important branch of trade, the cotton manufactures be would repeat, that both in Lancashire and in several districts of Scotland, a very considerable improvement had taken place. The improvement in Lancashire was not exclusively confined to the manufacturing part of the county. He could state upon good authority, that the trade of the port of Liverpool had partaken in the general amelioration.—As to the question of agricultural distress, he was prepared to discuss it whenever it should be brought forward; but, he wished to guard himself against the suspicion, that he admitted any one particular cause as the origin of that distress. On the contrary, he was convinced, that there must be many conspiring causes. And here he wished to say one word with reference to what had fallen from him on the first day of the session. He had undoubtedly said, that he considered our increased production to be one cause of the existing agricultural distress. It was, in his opinion, quite evident, that there had within these eight years been a great increase in agricultural produce. It appeared, that now, for the first time for these forty years the country had been two years without the introduction of any foreign wheat. There had in fact been no importation since February, 1819. He knew that this fact had been doubted, and that it had been supposed, that the foreign corn which was warehoused had found its way into the market. Had such been the case, his argument would fall to the ground; but a very strict investigation of the subject had been made, conducted by persons who were persuaded of the existence of the abuse; and, notwithstanding the greatest pains were taken to detect any abuse, they were at last convinced, that none of the warehoused corn had been consumed in the country. Relying on the accuracy of this investigation, he was entitled to say, that their lordships had before them the fact of the country having now been two years without any importation of foreign corn; and this fact he held to be a strong presumption of the increased production of corn in the country. There had been, he believed, an increased importation from Ireland; but the improved cultivation of that country, whatever partial disadvantages it might be attended with, could not but be regarded as a benefit to the empire in general. It was possible, that the diminished production which the noble earl apprehended, might be the means of correcting the evil; for he believed, that the great quantity of inferior land which had been forced into cultivation, when prices were high during the war, was one of the causes of the present distress. He was ready to admit, that a share of the difficulties of the country might also be owing to taxation; but, in what degree taxation operated he could not then undertake to say, though he was of opinion, that its effect had been much overrated. Their lordships would recollect, that there had already been a diminution of taxation to the extent of fifteen or sixteen millions, and yet that reduction had not removed the embarrassments complained of. That the measures taken respecting the currency of the country had also, in some degree, contributed to the distress he should not dispute. That they would have such an effect was one of the arguments used at the time by those who opposed the steps which were taken for a return to cash payments. But it was the opinion of the country, and of their lordships, that a temporary evil was to be endured, in order to obtain the advantage of a currency convertible into specie. This was not to be done without encountering some difficulty; but, that its influence was as extensive as some persons contended he could not admit. He was, as he had already said, prepared to enter into the discussion of the subject to which the noble earl had called the attention of the House, as soon as it could be submitted in a regular shape; but, their lordships would always bear in mind this important principle, that in a question of this kind, unless they could clearly see their way, to legislate at all was an evil. With regard to the result of the committee on the timber trade, to which the noble earl had alluded, he would only say, that he trusted the session would not go over without something being done on that subject. As the matter now stood, it was altogether a question of duties, but one which bore rather upon regulation than upon revenue.

The Marquis of Lansdown

thought himself bound to notice the character of this petition. From the debt which the country owed to the industry of the district from which it came, and the great accuracy of the statements it contained, he thought it was entitled to the greatest attention; but there were some observations in it which called upon him to say a few words. It was stated by the petitioners, that since the complaints winch had been made of the prevalence of national distress, no measure of relief had been undertaken by parliament, except the appointment of a committee on foreign trade. Now their lordships would recollect, that when he, in the course of the last session, moved the appointment of a committee to consider of the state of foreign trade, he stated, that he did not confine his motion to that object, because, he conceived it the only one that ought to be inquired into, but, because he conceived that remedies could best be applied to the existing distress, if their lordships' attention were directed to one branch of the subject at a time. When the noble earl opposite, suggested the expediency of referring the application of the petitioners to a committee similar to that of last year, he was bound to say, that the petitioners did not appear to pray particularly for any thing that fell within the inquiries of such a committee. They did not expect relief so much from the extension of foreign trade as from an improvement in the home market; as they thought, that the circumstances which formed the foundation of their sufferings and calamities were to be found rather in the reduction of home consumption than in the diminution of our external commerce. The noble earl had stated, and stated truly, that the distresses under which the country laboured, were not spread equally over all the branches of its industry, and that a partial alleviation of them had lately been experienced where their pressure had previously been greatest. This he was willing to allow. The town of Birmingham, with which the petitioners were connected, had experienced no relief, but in other places there had been an improvement in trade. The cotton trade in Manchester and Liverpool had materially improved. He had certain information, that there had, in Liverpool, taken place of late, a great revival of the export trade, and, that the cotton trade in particular had been restored to something like comparative prosperity. When he admitted this fact, he begged, however, to connect it with some explanation. Though the trade had been revived, and capital was again brought into activity, neither the merchant nor the manufacturer could realize that profit from their capital which they did in better times. Their capital was again employed, but not to so much advantage as formerly. A beneficial effect was produced by the activity which was excited, but that effect was not so great as when the profits of the capital employed were greater. If capitalists could realize three, two or one per cent on their capital, it was an amelioration of a state of things when no capital at all could be beneficially employed; but, profits so small could not indicate a flourishing state of trade. The noble earl had ascribed the fall in the prices of agricultural produce, not so much to diminished consumption, as to increased production; and he had referred, for proof of the truth of his doctrine, to the extended cultivation of the country, under the stimulus of war prices and the want of importation during the last two years. But, if this were the case, was it not surprising, that that effect was not felt earlier, and was felt all at once? Was it not inexplicable, on his hypothesis, that when the prices were high, the production of the country should be inadequate to its consumption; and that when they had fallen for years—when the stimulating cause had ceased to operate—there should immediately commence an excess of production over the powers of consumption? When their lordships considered this and other circumstances connected with the state of the country—when they looked to the statement of distresses on their table, and calculated the amount and pressure of taxation—they would see other causes for the complaints of the agricultural interest than excess of production: they would see grounds for believing in a diminished consumption; but, the consumption of the people was not only diminished—the quality of their food was deteriorated. The taxes had driven the labouring and poorer classes of the community to the use of lower articles of consumption than they were formerly accustomed to enjoy. Where they formerly lived on corn, a great portion of them now lived on potatoes. Thus the aggregate consumption of grain over the whole country was, by the pressure of taxation, materially diminished. If their lordships were to follow an hypothesis, in accounting for the distresses of the agricultural interests, they should form one that was consistent with fact, and that explained the appearances for winch it was brought to account. Nothing could be more unsatisfactory than the one which assumed, that the country, which did not grow enough for its own consumption when prices were high, should all at once grow too much when they had fallen.—Now with regard to the propriety of referring the petition to a committee. He did not think with the petitioners, that much benefit would result from the appointment of such a committee. He had said, that the state of the home trade was more important to the petitioners than that of our foreign trade; and it might be supposed, that as an inquiry had last year been directed into the means of ameliorating the latter, so now a wise policy would require more strongly an investigation into the former. But there was this difference between the two cases—that whereas our foreign trade might be benefitted and extended by an inquiry into the policy of certain restrictions on it, and the removal of them, the difficulties that pressed upon our home consumption, however easily they might be ascertained by a committee, could not be removed. A committee in the latter case might discover the cause, but could not apply the remedy. He attributed our present pressure to the circumstance of our living so long on the capital of the country, and our being obliged now to confine ourselves to its revenue. This cause, which applied more or less to all other countries that had made similar exertions, was aggravated in this by the great amount of taxation, and this again was aggravated by the necessary and too long deferred return to cash payments. A measure which could only be effected by principles and means which, adding to a taxation already existing to un amount greater than in any other country in the world, clogged and hampered all the means which the country possessed of adapting itself to the new state of things. If he was right in his opinion, it was not to a committee that the country should look for a remedy, but to a determination on the part of its government to reduce the public expenditure by every means its disposal; and, above all, by a determination on the part of parliament not to allow any partial interests, however powerful, to interfere with those broad principles of trade, by which alone new commerce could be created, new capital called into action, and those impediments removed, which in this, as in other countries, put a check to commercial prosperity. Much were it to be desired, that those great sovereigns of the world, assembled at Troppau or Laybach, instead of devising plans to violate the independence of nations, and establish a system of arbitrary despotism on the continent, should only meet to remove the impolitic restrictions still fastened on European commerce, and thus do more to effect that which they professed to be their object, the tranquillization of the world, which rested on the prosperity of trade, than by any military menace which they might adopt. Much towards the attainment of that great object might be accomplished by the government of this country, by the removal of the restrictions existing on foreign trade; and he trusted more to their efforts and to the suggestions of individuals to promote trade at home and abroad, than to the labours of a committee. Should, however, the present petition be referred to the Committee on Foreign Trade, far from opposing the inquiry, though he might not be able to take an active part in it, he should give it his most sincere support.

Lord Calthorpe

could state, from his personal knowledge, that the individuals who had signed the present petition were incapable of putting their names to any facts of which they did not know the reality. He could not help hoping, as far as the foreign trade was concerned, that the committee which sat last year, and which was about to be revived, would secure to the country all attainable advantages. He was therefore glad that the noble earl who had presented the petition had not moved for a new committee, which might have the effect of distracting the labours of the old. Yet he felt desirous, that some committee of the nature proposed by the petitioners should be appointed in that or the other House. He hoped, that the public wish, expressed by numberless petitions, would induce ministers to sanction the appointment of such a committee to investigate the causes of the existing distress, or at least to afford an opportunity of ascertaining what were the circumstances which affected agriculture.

Ordered to lie on the table.