HL Deb 22 June 1820 vol 1 cc1206-13
The Earl of Liverpool

assured their lordships that it was with extreme reluctance he now rose to propose any farther adjournment of the order for the meeting of the secret committee to which the consideration of the papers connected with his majesty's message was referred, and which at present stood fixed for to morrow; but circumstances had come to his knowledge which led him still to entertain hopes that some adjustment might take place which would render any investigation of the papers laid on the table unnecessary. Under these circum stances, he should not act consistently with the course he had hitherto pursued in this important and delicate business, if he did not propose to their lordships a farther adjournment of the committee.—The day for which he should propose the meeting was Tuesday next. He felt most strongly all he objections which must arise in the minds of their lordships to any unnecessary delay. He trusted, however, they would be satisfied that nothing but the most urgent considerations could have induced him to propose this adjournment and he had only to add, that if the adjustment did hot take place before Monday, he should then feel it to be his duty to propose that the committee should proceed to the investigation for which it was appointed.

Earl Grey

could not help expressing his astonishment that such a proposal should be made; but as the noble earl had stated that, from circumstances which had come to his knowledge, he entertained hopes than an, adjustment would take place, it was impossible for him to offer any opposition to the motion for postponing the committee. At the same time, it was equally impossible for him to refrain from calling their lordships' attention to the extraordinary and disgraceful situation in which the House was placed, in consequence of the conduct of the noble lord and his colleagues. He had already stated that situation to be disgraceful, and upon reflection he did not think the word too strong. In this situation their lordships were placed in consequence of his majesty's ministers not having had the courage and the wisdom to make up their minds on the advice they ought to give to the Crown, and to act on that advice when given. In this case it was their duty to have done one of two things. It was for; them to consider whether they had grounds for proceeding against her majesty or not; and having made up their, minds on that question, it was their duty to act according to the decision. If they thought there were no grounds for proceeding, or if considerations of a public nature induced them not to bring forward any measure, it was their duty to declare that opinion, and act upon it. If, on the contrary, they thought there were circumstances which rendered it improper that her majesty the Queen should stand at the head of female society in this country, then they ought not to have proposed a secret committee, but ought to have come manfully and openly forward with a public measure: then, whatever shame might be long to the case would have fallen upon I the accusers, had their charges been false; upon her majesty had they proved to be true. This was the plain duty of the ministers; but from this they had shrunk, and had endeavoured to shift from them selves all responsibility; and in doing so, had involved themselves in irretrievable disgrace. But the evil of the case did not stop here; the honour of the Grown, and the dignity of the House were deeply implicated by the proceedings. When he came to the consideration of the question, he should state in detail the grounds on which he objected to the course which had been followed; but, though he did not oppose the motion, he could not refrain from feeling shame and indignation at the situation in which the House stood. At first, ministers had proceeded with the greatest expedition. They seemed to think that the slightest delay would be dangerous; they sent down a message calculated almost to "frighten the isle from its propriety." They hastened to the appointment of a secret committee. Then, not in consequence of any thing that had passed in that House, but because something had been done in another place, repeated delays had been interposed.—Their lordships, however, were left in ignorance of the cause of the postponements— Adjournment, and adjournment, and adjournment, Creeps in this petty pace from day to day, To the last syllable of recorded time! Thus, week after week, their lordships had been told the last period was come; and now again another final period was fixed. Their lordships had first been desired to adjourn the proceeding they had voted, to give opportunity for a negotiation.—. The papers which contained the history of that negotiation were laid on the table, and then they were desired to adjourn again in consequence of a new expectation of an adjustment. Nothing had been said as Co the bearing the papers laid on the table were expected to have on the question of the appointment of the committee. In this state of things, their lordships' dignity had suffered; but, though he felt for the situation in which the House was placed, he should not oppose the motion of the noble lord.

The Earl of Liverpool

was confident that their lordships would feel the difficulty of the situation in which he stood. It was impossible for him, in this stage of the proceeding, to explain the grounds of his conduct, and what were the reasons which had induced him, and those who acted with him, to tender to the sovereign, the advice they had thought it their duty to give; but he trusted that, in the interval before the time arrived when he should be at liberty to state the reasons of the course which had been pursued, then-lordships would give him credit for not having shrunk from offering any advice that appeared necessary, either for the honour of the Crown, the advantage of the country, or the particular interests of the case. He assured their lordships that, were this the last day of his existence, he could lay his hand on his heart and declare, that in no business—and since the commencement of his public life, none had been to him so personally painful—had his majesty's ministers ever given any advice to the Crown in which he was so fully convinced that they had acted in the way which was most consistent with their duty to their sovereign and their country. If he abstained from stating the reasons which had governed the conduct of his majesty's advisers, it was because it was impossible at that time to enter into them with propriety. But he denied that any imputation could, in the mean time, be cast upon them. Neither would he admit that any disgrace had fallen upon the House. It was certainly true, that sealed papers had been referred to a secret committee, and that the meeting of the committee which their lordships had appointed had been postponed from time to time. But upon what ground had this been done? Upon the proposition of the advisers of the Crown, who were the only persons acquainted with the sealed papers, and therefore the only persons as yet qualified to give an opinion upon any question connected with them. In any case in which sealed papers were laid before parliament, it was always competent to ministers, who were the only depositories of the secrets such papers contained, to come and say that delay was adviseable. In such a case, how could any disgrace attach to their lordships for agreeing to a delay, of the propriety or impropriety of which they could not judge? But, according to the reasoning of the noble earl, the disgrace not only attached to the House but to ministers. This was said when the grounds on which his majesty's advisers had acted were not known. He was most anxious for the arrival of that period in which he could give every explanation that might be desired: until then, he did not ask from the noble lord that justice which he knew he would not accord to him but he expected it from the House.

Earl Spencer

said, he would not object to this motion for the further postponement of the inquiry but had he been present in the House or in the country when the proposition was first made for the appointment of a secret committee, he should have done all in his power to dissuade their lordships from adopting so unwise and unsafe a measure. He should now of course bow to the decision of the House, yet he might be permitted to express his opinion upon the subjects. The measure being in his mind originally wrong, he could not therefore oppose the postponement of it. The measure was wrong, because it bound the House to decide upon a question in their legislative capacity, which they might have to determine subsequently in their judicial capacity. This point, as he collected from the ordinary sources of intelligence, had been strongly urged on the first night, but their lordships had decided against it. Circumstances, however, had since occurred, which pretty clearly proved that more wisdom would have been displayed, and the dignity of the House would have been better observed, had that argument been successful. He should now say no more upon this point, except to express his sincere hope that the secret committee might never sit.

Lord Ellenborough

regarded the present proposition as standing on the same grounds as all the former motions for postponement; namely, that there existed some hope of terminating by negotiation the differences which were to have been referred to a committee. He could not look upon that House as covered with disgrace by the adjournments. It was not the other House, as had been argued, that had caused these adjournments. The same cause which operated to induce the other House to adjourn operated on their lordships also. The only distinction was, that the two Houses were in a different situation as to the stage of proceeding in which delay had been suggested. Their lordships had appointed the committee, and the other House had not. When it was first proposed to adjourn the question, he had ventured to predict, that unless a short period was finally fixed, there could be no hope of an arrangement taking place; and the apprehensions he then expressed he was sorry to find were realized. From the papers on the table, he was convinced there was no hope of adjustment without the assistance of parliament. It was only through the immediate interference of parliament that any satisfactory result could be expected.

Lord Holland

observed, that the noble lord who had just spoken concurred with the noble lord opposite in the propriety of delay. The only reason assigned for postponement was the expectation of an adjustment. But the noble lord who had just sat down was of opinion there could be no settlement without the interference of parliament; and he was sure no reasons more strong could be urged, than those that that noble lord had given against the very motion he supported. He was also persuaded that the dignity of the House had not suffered by the proceedings which had taken place, because the same causes had operated on both Houses to induce them to postpone the proceedings. There was certainly something ingenious in this argument, but it was rather singular that those causes had always operated in that House precisely the day after they had operated in the other. Their lordships were now deliberating on the propriety of adjourning the committee: of course, this question came upon them quite unexpectedly; for yesterday, when the noble lord over the way was asked whether there was any important question on which the House was summoned for this day, he answered that the marine mutiny bill was before them: so it was on account of that bill their lordships had met to day! It was certainly very odd, that those causes which the noble lord alleged operated equally on both Houses, should always commence to operate in that House, just twenty four hours after the operation had taken effect in the House of Commons. He did not mean to oppose the motion; but he must still say, that the more proper and manly course would have been to have adopted the motion of the noble baron opposite (Kenyon), and have suspended the appointment of the committee. The noble earl on the other side had appealed to the difficulty of his situation as an excuse, for not stating the motives of his conduct; but though that might be a good reason for his not openly explaining the grounds on which he had acted, it was too much to desire the House, on that account, to act in a way in which their proceedings could neither be satisfactory to themselves nor to the public. His objection was, that no reason had been assigned to justify the House in the course it had adopted. And in whom had their lordships placed such confidence? In men who constantly shifted from their own shoulders all responsibility. The noble earl had told them, that it was usual to refer papers transmitted by the Crown to a secret committee: but he forgot to mention, that it was also usual to state the bearing and effect of such papers, and the view which ministers had of any measure which they thought ought to be adopted upon them. Had they done this in the present case, they would have been pledged to some distinct course, and the Crown and the country would have had the benefit of their decision. Every step already taken must have been adopted on their recommendation. They had advised the Crown to an act, the legality of which he doubted; namely, the omission of her majesty's name from the liturgy. They had advised every measure, and surely ought before now to have made up their minds as to the course of proceeding which should be adopted.

Lord Erskines

said:—My lords, after what has passed, I feel it, necessary to trouble your lordships with a very few words. I have already stated upon a former occasion, my reasons for voting for a secret committee, and to those reasons I still adhere. I certainly gave that vote under the full persuasion, that we could not be called upon in our judicial character to adjudicate any charges against the queen, otherwise I should not have given that vote, and I still consider it to be impossible that any charge can be brought against the queen, which can become the subject of investigation before us in our judicial character. To know the contents of the green bag is impossible, even to the second sight of a Scotsman, but I cannot bring myself to believe, that the ministers of the Crown would place this House in the situation of prejudging questions, that, might afterwards come before them in a judicial character, as such a course would be most inconvenient to the ends of justice. I was told, when in a distant part of the country—I found that her majesty's name was excluded from the liturgy, that that act was resorted to in consequence of the government being in possession of charges against the queen, with regard to her conduct, there being no doubt that that omission of her majesty's name in the liturgy; was derogatory to her character. I was therefore, prepared for charges being made against her majesty, either with a view of founding on them a bill of divorce or of degradation, or whatever other object; and, as I have already-stated, I considered the most advisable course to be, under all the circumstances, to refer the papers containing those charges1 to a secret committee. But when see that the only members of this House who are in possession of the contents of these papers, namely, his majesty's ministers, are ready to enter into negotiation as to all the matters contained in them, for the purpose of bringing about at adjustment of the dispute, I may well be allowed to doubt whether the charges against the queen are of that grave and serious nature or supported by that evidence, which we were, in the first instance, taught to believe—whether the ministers who brought forward these charges, ate themselves satisfied as to the alleged character of them, and if that be the case; whether a secret, committee is at all necessary for their investigation, it being-perfectly competent to the ministers of the Crown to bring forward whatever measure they may think the circumstances of the case either render necessary or expedient.

The Earl of Darnley

remarked, that although the noble lord (Ellenborough) had avowed his belief that; negotiation could not be successful unless conducted under the control of parliament, he had with some degree of inconsistency voted for the further adjournment of the inquiry. It was more consistent that they who thought the green bag should never be opened, should support such a motion. He hoped sincerely that the question of the queen's guilt or innocence would never be brought forward, but he would not at the present moment express any opinion upon it. As little was he prepared to pass a censure upon ministers upon such points as had not been fully explained to the House, but he might express his opinion upon certain notorious facts. He could not therefore avoid remarking, that so far as these facts appeared, the conduct of ministers seemed to have been a series of false moves, in which they were constantly in check. He saw not how they could get out, but if they persevered they must lose the game. By having her name erased from the liturgy her majesty was at once condemned, without being allowed the chance of a defence. This was a proceeding under which no woman of feeling or spirit (and her majesty did not appear to be deficient in either) could sit down contented The noble earl recapitulated the measures pursued against the queen and concluded by expressing his fears that the conduct of the House would not, in the opinion of the public, appear to be free from reproach.

The motion was agreed to.