Lords Sitting of 21 June 1820

MUTINY BILL.
Earl Grosvenorrose, on the order of the day for the third reading of the Mutiny bill. Before he made the motion of which he had given notice, for a reduction of the present number

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of the army, he thought it necessary to say a few words; for he was by no means satisfied as to the propriety of the late increase, by any thing which had been stated in its defence. Their lordships ought to be well convinced of the necessity of maintaining such a force as that proposed by the present bill before they agreed to vote it. When, however, he considered that, among the other reasons for objecting to the measure, the matter of discontent in the army itself would be diminished by a reduction he could feel little hesitation in bringing forward the motion he was about to make. He should not enter into any discussion of the reports which were circulated on the cause of the! discontents. He would only say, that he could not suppose it true that the discontents which had broken out among a part of the military were owing to their not receiving an extra allowance, which it had been the practice to give them, not in war, but in peace. That such a thing should have been done without the sanction of parliament, or even that any allowance at all should be given for such a purpose as that alluded to was said to have been granted, appeared to him very extraordinary. He could rather suppose that a case of discontent might have arisen from the troops usually quartered in the metropolis being called upon to perform more than their ordinary duty. But when he considered the enormous amount of the present army, he could not but see how easily this cause might have been avoided. When there, were so many other corps which might be employed on any particular service, instead of the guards, there could be no difficulty in removing this difficulty. In despotic countries, such disturbances in a military force would be attended by very serious consequences; but, to whatever extent they might have gone, they occasioned no alarm to his mind. When he considered that this was a country possessing a free government, and that the people were sincerely attached to the constitution, whatever alarm other governments might feel under such circumstances, he saw no ground for any serious apprehension here. He was certainly the less disposed to alarm, because, in his mind he never had separated the soldier from the citizen, though he was sorry to say that, from many things which had occurred it appeared to be the wish of some persons to dissolve that connexion. But, to proceed
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to the more immediate subject of his motion; their lordships were aware that three years ago it was determined, even by ministers themselves, that the army should be reduced to the state in which it was in 1792. Why this period was chosen instead of 1786 he did not know; the latter he thought would have afforded the most proper example, for the year 1792 was a year in which the state of Europe rendered war probable. The force at present maintained, was, however, double that of 1792, and about triple that of 1786. But three years ago, when ministers determined on this reduction, the discontents of the country were, according to their own showing greater than any that existed now. Had they not considered the discontents to be of the most serious nature, they certainly would not have proposed that iron law, the suspension of the; Habeas Corpus act, which their lordships had been induced to pass. If they thought it right to reduce the military force at that time, there surely appeared nothing like discontent at present to justify an increase. It had been asserted, that every endeavour was made to reduce the expense of the army as low as possible, and yet the charge was not less than 10,000,000 l. Every man in the service cost rather more than 100 l. annually, which was a most enormous charge, and proved the great extravagance of the system. The force of the army was not only double what it was in 1792, but the amount of the expenditure was, in several important articles greater at present than it had been in the third year of the war. The increase which had been made in the army led to an increase in the number of barracks—a measure which he had always looked at with jealousy. But if it were necessary to increase the barracks, they surely need not be augmented to the great extent to which they were carried. Nearly one hundred had been built in different parts of the country. He must confess, however, that he believed it was scarcely possible for government to resist many of the applications made to then for building barracks, though he knew of instances in which they were made of most ludicrous grounds. The applications he knew were chiefly made by country magistrates, who were clergymen, and in general very respectable persons, but misled by the erroneous views they entertained. Most of these magistrates were what was considered extremely loyal; by which was

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meant exceedingly attached to the system of the present ministers. They regarded every man who differed from their political opinions, as disaffected and seditious. If the people around them thought some reform necessary, if they ventured, for instance, to say that the borough of Grampound was corrupt and ought to be disfranchised—these magistrates called them radicals, and were often led to exercise an unnecessary severity. It was not surprising that the people then became irritated. They called the magistrates tyrants, and the magistrates, observing the discontents they had provoked, asked for the aid of a military force. It ought to be the study of government to remove the cause of discontents, instead of increasing the military force, which could only serve to increase them. Whenever there was much dissatisfaction, great misrule had in general given cause for it. The present amount of the army was between 91,000 and 92,000. He should propose to take from it 11,910, which would leave it 80,000. When their lordships recollected the number of the militia and yeomanry kept on foot, they could not but admit that the standing army, so reduced, would be sufficient. He concluded by moving an amendment, which had for its object to reduce the army 11,910 men.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that with regard to the circumstances to which the noble earl had alluded in the commencement of his speech, he must observe, that the reports respecting those circumstances had been grossly exaggerated. He had also the satisfaction to state, that any dissatisfaction which prevailed had now completely subsided; and he could assure the noble earl that it was not to be ascribed to any of the causes to which he had alluded. At the same time, he could not but add, that he thought the noble earl would have acted more prudently if, considering the state in which the affair now was, he had refrained from saying any thing on the subject. With regard to the noble earl's amendment, he felt himself bound to oppose it, though he must observe that it was with as much regret as could be felt by any man that he agreed to recommend the insertion of the words in his majesty's speech at the opening of the session relative to the increase of the military force. No man could have been more indisposed than he was to make any addition to the army, until he was convinced that the increase was necessary to
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the internal peace and good order of the country. When the state of the country in the end of the last and the beginning of the present year was impartially considered, it was impossible not to admit the necessity of the augmentation.
The amendment was negatived, and the bill passed.