HL Deb 08 June 1820 vol 1 cc985-99

The Earl of Liverpool moved the order of the day for proceeding to ballot for a secret committee, pursuant to the vote of last night. The clerks were about to hand about the balloting glasses, when

Lord Kenyon

rose to propose the postponement of the order, as he saw no other noble lord disposed to interfere. Concurring as he did in the wisdom of the measure which their lordships had yesterday resolved to adopt, it might appear extraordinary that he should propose any thing calculated to prevent its being carried into effect. Indeed, considering the nature of the message which had been received from the throne—considering also what was due to the dignity of the illustrious parties, as well as to the propriety of their lordships proceedings—he had regarded the appointment of the committee the only fit course to be adopted. It was a proceeding to which their lordships were driven by the necessity of the case; but he understood that circumstances had arisen from which there was reason to hope that the very painful consequences which were to be anticipated from the measure their lordships had agreed to if it were to be proceeded in, might yet be averted. Under these circumstances, he entertained a confident expectation that their lordships would be prevailed upon to suspend the measure they had agreed to yesterday, in the hope that something might occur to render it altogether unnecessary. The proceeding had been delayed in another place with the view to afford opportunity for an arrangement; and he was sure that if their lordships could do any thing to prevent the facts proposed to be referred to the committee from being communicated to the public, their taking such a step would be the means of preventing a great calamity from taking place. While there was any probability of such an arrangement being entered into, there was sufficient ground for their lordships to delay the execution of the order they had made. It was true it would be in their lordships power, even if the committee were appointed, to suspend the investigation; but he thought it would be much better if the committee did not enter on its functions at all, until it should be seen whether the expectation which at present existed would be realized or fail. This course would show their lordships wish to conciliate; and with that view, he would propose that the ballot be postponed till Monday.

The Earl of Liverpool

—My lords; with reference to what has been said by my noble friend, I think it necessary to state, that no circumstance has been communicated to me, nor have I any information to authorize me in holding out any prospect of conciliation. Far be it from me, however, to negative so desirable an object, which must be the wish of every man who at all considers the subject; but what I object to is, that nothing has been stated sufficient to induce this House to recede from its vote of last night, by not proceeding to the ballot. Let us proceed to the ballot, and then it will be perfectly consistent with the regularity of our proceedings to postpone the meeting of the committee for a few days, in order that as opportunity may be given for the possibility of conciliation, if such is the wish of the House. I should therefore propose, after the ballot has taken place, that the meeting of the committee should be postponed till Tuesday.

The Marquis of Lansdowne

was not surprised to find that noble lords should, on reflection, call upon the House to undo to-day what it had done yesterday; but in whatever light the proposition might appear, he was favourable to the proposed delay. He was ready to support the noble baron's motion, as it appeared to him the most consistent, or rather the least inconsistent, of the two propositions made to the House. At the same time, if the noble baron's motion should be rejected by their lordships, he would accept the course pointed out by the noble earl, because he was most anxious that some means should be found to prevent both Houses of Parliament from proceeding farther in this business. He, therefore, did not mean to oppose the noble earl's arrangement; but he must remind their lordships, that the situation in which they found themselves placed was a proof of the truth of what he had suggested yesterday, of the inconvenience of presuming on the authority of any noble lord, even of a minister of state at the head of the government, what was to be the course which the other House of Parliament would in any case choose to pursue. The result had proved that their lordships ought not to have acted on the supposition of what the other House would do, because it was impossible to know what course that House might think fit to adopt. As the matter now stood, it appeared that their lordships had embarked in the business referred to their consideration with a degree of precipitation in which the other House did not choose to accompany them. They were aware what the other House had done, and those who wished to maintain that contemporaneous co-operation between the two Houses which many thought desirable on such occasions as the present, would doubtless support any proposition for postponement. To effect this purpose, and the still greater object of an arrangement such as had been alluded to, he wished to see the noble baron's motion adopted.

Lord Kenyon

noticed what had been said by the marquis of Lansdowne, in the commencement of his speech, respecting: the undoing today what had been done yesterday—an expression which appeared to give much satisfaction to a noble lord neat him ford Holland had smiled when the noble marquis made the observation referred to]. He was one of those who had approved the course adopted yesterday, but he did not on that account conceive that there was any impropriety in now proposing to suspend the proceeding.

The Marquis of Lansdowne

explained, that he had no intention of applying what he had said to the conduct of the noble baron in particular.

Lord Kenyon

then observed that, whether it should be their lordships pleasure to adopt his motion or; not, he had at least the satisfaction of having drawn from the noble earl an acquiescence in the propriety of delay. What the noble earl, however, proposed was, to appoint the committee, but to allow nothing to be done till Tuesday. He thought it would be a better way to postpone the consideration of the subject altogether while the slightest hope of any conciliatory arrangement existed. As long as any hope could be indulged, he should not think that he did his duty if he did not endeavour to gain time; and as the best and most consistent mode of obtaining that object was, in his opinion, to suspend the proceeding in its present state, he should persist in his motion, and hoped that their lordships would come with him to the conclusion that the order for appointing the committee ought to be postponed to Monday.

The Earl of Lauderdale

was as anxious to agree to any course which might have a conciliatory effect as the noble baron or his noble friend could be, but he knew of nothing out of that House that ought to be a rule for what it was proper for their lordships to do. He made this observation because the debate had been proceeding in a most disorderly manner. He had never before, in the course of his experience, heard it assigned as a reason for their lordships not proceeding in a measure which they had agreed to adopt, that the other House of Parliament had chosen to decide otherwise. The House had acted on its own judgment; and if delay was thought advisable, the only question which now arose was, which of the modes suggested was most consistent with the dignity of the House? He might join his noble friend in his triumph at the hope of their lordships being compelled to retrace their steps, but it was his duty to consider what was now fittest to be done, and he did not hesitate to say that the mode proposed by the noble earl opposite was that which appeared to him the best.

Lord Holland

could not agree with the view of the question which had been taken by his noble friend who had just sat down. In the mean time, however, he begged to assure the noble baron who had noticed the expression of his countenance, that that expression was accompanied by of feeling of disapprobation, of what the noble baron proposed. On the contrary it was with much satisfaction he found that the noble baron, who had yesterday voted for a committee, did to-day approve of delay. With regard to what his noble friend had said respecting the notice taken of the proceeding adopted by the House of Commons, so far from considering that disorderly, he considered it a most cogent reason for postponing the appointment of the committee. Their lordships must be aware that their knowledge of what was done in that House did not rest upon the statement of any noble lord that so and so had happened. They had the votes of the House of Commons before them, and from these votes they knew that the question was postponed. How those who contended for the propriety of the concurrence of the two Houses of Parliament in the same measure (which he certainly did not do) could object to referring to what was done in the House of Commons, was a matter difficult to be understood. There were no other means of securing that concurrence. He could assure their lordships that he felt a sincere respect for the dignity of the House. He had never been a member of the other branch of the legislature; and having during the whole of his parliamentary life been a member of that House, could surely, as little as any person, be suspected of wishing to treat it with disrespect. But he always considered true dignity to consist not in persisting in error, but in acknowledging and correcting it. There was good sense and propriety in the old and homely adage, which said that.

When once a man has chanced to lose his way, The more he walks the more he goes astray. Instead of obstinately continuing in an erroneous course, the true dignity in such a case was to go back, if possible, or at least to stand still. If the decision of yesterday was, as he contended, precipitate and erroneous, the best mode of preserving the dignity of the House was to retrace their steps. For that reason he very much preferred proceeding on the motion of the noble baron opposite to the course recommended by the noble earl. He wished the ballot to is postponed altogether; and he thought the situation in which the House was placed required that course. Their lordships would recollect, that, the ground on which the postponement was proposed was the possibility that some arrangement might become to; but of that, he was sorry to perceive the noble earl did not think there was any prospect, and held out no hope to the House that the delay would lead to such a result. But there were other grounds for the delay. The noble earl had yesterday stated, as one reason to induce their lordships to agree to the appointment of the committee, not only that no impeachment was intended, but that it was impossible any impeachment could be the result of the investigation; and that, therefore, the course he recommended could lead to nothing but to a legislative measure. But unless public rumour was quite unfounded, such was not the opinion of all his majesty's ministers. If his noble friend did not call him to order for attending to any thing which did not occur in that House, he would say, though it might be disorderly, that he had heard out of doors that a cabinet minister had said that the referring of the papers in the green bag to a committee would be followed by an impeachment. This he stated, and it could noble contradicted, that he had heard it out of doors. The proceeding was altogether inconsistent, and only calculated to expose the government to that contempt which, according to the words of a bill of last session, it was necessary to prevent. It was impossible the conduct of ministers should not occasion irritation. They could not tell what to do, but came down to throw on the House all the responsibility of their conduct in the hopes that their lordships would shield them, and direct them how to proceed. This, too, was done at a time when it was very probable the opinion of the House might be placed in a conflicting position with that of the other House of Parliament; and when one minister says there can be no judicial proceeding, while another asserts that there maybe one. Ought their lordships to proceed to the appointment of the committee, when it appeared that the ministers had not yet made up their minds as to the course to be pursued? Yesterday the whole responsibility was thrown on their lordships of a proceeding which it was now proposed to relinquish, without any other reason being assigned than that the other House of Parliament had not come to the same conclusion. If what had been suggested yesterday had been adopted, this inconsistency would not have occurred. He could not, however, think that making an order that the committee should not sit till Tuesday was the way to preserve the dignity of the House. The true dignity would be to persist in what they had done yesterday, if they thought it right; or, if they found they had been in error to rescind the order entirely.

The Earl of Liverpool

could not allow; the speech of the noble lord to pass without observation. The proceeding of yesterday had nothing to do with the delay now proposed. It was not said that their lordships should wait for a contemporaneous proceeding of the other House, but the proposition was made with the knowledge that the two Houses were to proceed contemporaneously. The House, however, would act on its own view of the case. He had not said that all such measures should be contemporaneous in both Houses; but he still maintained the opinion he had given, that if the present case was to be proceeded in at all, the proper way was by that, and the other House of parliament entering on the measure at the same time. The postponement to Tuesday next was no abandonment of what had already been done, and might have been proposed by any noble lord without reference to what had occurred in another place. He made the proposition without reference to any facts or circumstances which had come to his knowledge. If from the nature of the case, any good result might arise from the delay, an opportunity was afforded for that advantage; but there was nothing in the proposition of delay to impeach the propriety of the proceeding of yesterday.

The Earl of Carnarvon

was for the postponement of the ballot, and thought the adoption of the noble baron's motion the course which common sense dictated. What was the only ground for delay? It was obviously the possibility that some circumstances might arise which would render it unnecessary to form any committee on the case. The noble earl's rather clumsy way of obtaining delay by postponing the sitting of the committee: to Tuesday was virtually the same as the motion of the noble baron. He could not fix Monday for the meeting of the committee, because, if an arrangement should take place after to-morrow, the House would not have the opportunity of preventing the committee from proceeding to the investigation of the papers on the day on which they would be ordered to sit. When no advantage was gained by the noble earl's mode, he thought it would be more becoming in their lordships to adopt the consistent course proposed by the noble baron, especially when they considered the delicate situation in which they would be placed if the House of Commons should, after all, decide to proceed by impeachment.

The Earl of Darnley

supported the motion of the noble baron, by the adoption of which he thought their lordships would best consult the dignity of the House

Lord Erskine

said;—My lords; as my noble friend below me informs me that he shall divide the House upon the question, I must trouble your lordships, contrary to my intention, with a very tow words. If the ballot had been only objected to, both yesterday and to-day, on the ground that delay was adviseable, I should consider it as a matter of the most perfect indifference whether we delayed ballotting, or the sitting of the committee to be appointed; but the ballot was resisted, and with great ability and eloquence, on the ground that the proceeding under it would be highly unconstitutional—a proposition to which I can by no means agree. It has been stated, that if we proceed contemporaneously with the House of Commons we shall be placed in a situation which would disqualify us from trying an impeachment, if the Commons should impeach. But in the case before us there can be no reason to presume that such proceeding will take place. The case is shortly this:—evil reports respecting the conduct of the queen beyond the seas (which I sincerely hope, on investigation, will prove groundless) called upon his majesty nevertheless to notice them. The king, by his accession, does not forfeit the rights of a private man, though his situation is changed. He cannot proceed for such a private wrong, like a private man, but as his consort is a public person, representing the nation as well as himself, he must proceed through the public councils; and in a case of great and painful necessity he has applied to both Houses of Parliament for advice. That act of his majesty negatives every idea of an impeachment, and shows that what he seeks is a legislative inquiry, and an act of parliament, if unfortunately it should be necessary; because we ought not to presume that the king asks us to put ourselves in a situation disqualifying us from what might afterwards be our duty, which I agree would be the case if we were now to examine the evidence, and afterwards to sit in judgment upon it under an impeachment. It is certainly true that the House of Commons might proceed against the queen by impeachment, though not at the instance and even against the consent of the king, who had bound himself to act in another manner by his message to both Houses; but can any supposition be more preposterous? The highest wrong, if any has been committed, is to the king, and it is only the queen consort's situation, as it respects the public, that makes her infidelity a crime at all, and it cannot therefore be believed that, except at the instance of the king, an impeachment could take place, more especially when his majesty has selected another mode of recovering for the public and himself the same measure of justice by a bill, if unfortunately necessary, beginning in either House of Parliament, each being at liberty to reject the opinion of the other. On that ground, I can feel no objection to the ballot which we consented to last night. We have acted as we ought to do, and we have no steps to retrace. I should be, of all mankind, the most in excuse able, if contrary to the principles in which I have been bred, and on which I have uniformly acted, I should consent to pervert this high tribunal, by consenting to its being accuser and judge. But that cannot be our condition, because, after having been placed in that situation by the Commons proceeding to impeach the queen against the king's consent, we might refuse to try her. My lords, I dare scarcely trust myself to express an opinion against that of my noble friends, whom I so highly respect, and with whom I have always acted in parliament. I agree to the law and constitution as they have ably asserted them, but I deny our situation as they assume it. As to secret committees, I have not changed any of my opinions concerning them. No man in the House has complained of them more warmly, because I thought they were inapplicable to public acts of commotion, and created a great jealousy on that account in the minds of the people; but is it possible to maintain that no committee ought to be secret? and what case that ever existed could, in tenderness to the illustrious person, so loudly call for secrecy? We are to inquire whether any, and what proceeding is to be adopted, and if, as I sincerely hope, we should find that there ought to be no proceeding whatever, the character of the queen will be completely restored and vindicated; whereas, if we should arrive at the same conclusion by a public investigation, a sting would remain that never could be drawn out. There might then be differences of opinion, and malignity might invent them—and if we say there should be a proceeding, it would then be a public proceeding. As to the cause of the delay I know nothing of it. The House of Commons has expressed no difference of opinion from any delivered in this House. It is perfectly notorious that there has been a negotiation to avert so painful and afflicting an inquiry, which has only been frustrated by her majesty's arrival, and by her own acts, as I have heard them represented; and if these acts are likely to be reconsidered, humanity, honour, and justice ought to unite in rendering them practicable; and if, therefore, when Tuesday comes a glimpse of hope shall remain that the whole proceeding may be averted, another adjournment may take place; but after the ground on which the ballot was originally resisted, I cannot consent to say that we were in the wrong in adopting it, when I feel we were perfectly in the right.

The Earl of Rosslyn

said, he would endeavour to bring back the attention^ of their lordships to the true state of the business, and he was not desirous to notice that part of the speech of his noble friend, which chiefly appeared to him to be an argument growing out of the debate that passed yesterday, farther than to set him right with respect to what had taken place because he conceived there was not one word which he then heard uttered on this subject that conveyed any wish either to refuse such proceedings as it might be deemed fit to adopt at a proper time, and after due consideration, or to deprive his majesty, or any other individual, of any relief or remedy that might be devised when the case was investigated. The argument, this he understood it yesterday, was, to persuade their lordships not to place themselves, by any act, in a situation that must embarrass them, if a judicial proceeding were begun by the other House of Parliament. They were called on, not to adopt any proceeding that might seem to imply the prejudging of a case with respect to which they were to be the ultimate judges; and, therefore, it was argued, that they ought not to proceed with any examination, or to offer any opinion, either of which was likely to have the effect pointed out. Another argument was, that the proceedings of the two Houses of Parliament ought not, in any degree, to be placed in competition. These were the observations made yesterday; and the proceeding then determined on could not now be retracted The course of proceeding pointed out today was by no means intended to undo what was done last night; and neither of his noble friends, in the course of their observations, had said any thing that could lead to an opinion that they wished their lordships to retrace their steps. The state in which they stood was this—they had either heard circumstances, or they had learned that an opinion was entertained that by a short delay that House might be spared the painful necessity of entering into the discussion of this question, and the still more painful necessity of a public examination of this most disagreeable subject. Under these circumstances all persons, he believed without exception, had agreed that the delay of a few days would not be objectionable. He apprehended that not the smallest objection could be offered to the practical result of such an arrangement. The question, therefore, was merely as to the mode of their own proceedings—whether they would fix the ballot of the committee for Monday, or go on with it to day, and adjourn the farther proceedings until Monday. The benefit that would result from a short delay being admitted on all hands, he could have no objection to the proposition of the noble baron opposite, and he would therefore acquiesce in his motion. He apprehended that by suspending all the proceedings, in the hope—he knew not with what probability of its being realised—of an amicable arrangement taking place, their lordships would stand acquitted in the eyes of the country. It would, he conceived, be better to let the ballot stand over to the day mentioned by the noble baron and then, having weighed the events which might occur in the interim, they could decide whether it might be necessary to proceed farther or not. As a hope seemed to be entertained, that their acting farther in this business might be rendered unnecessary, he conceived that the suspending their proceedings, the moment it was admitted that such was the acknowledged feeling of the House, would be more respectful to all the parties, more respectful towards the public, and more consistent with the sense of their own dignity and honour, than to go on with proceedings, which, although they had been begun, they would not perhaps be able to carry to any practical or useful end.

Lord Ellenborough

saw little difference in the two modes that were proposed. It was of little matter, with respect to the dignity and consistency of their proceedings, whether they adjourned the appointment of the committee, or, having appointed it, adjourned its proceedings. He, however, wished that the committee should now be balloted for, and that it should be directed to meet on Saturday. He proposed this course, because he was convinced that, if there was any chance of a successful arrangement, it could only be obtained by their lordships showing an absolute determination to proceed in the course agreed to yesterday, if between this day and that which he had mentioned, an amicable adjustment was not effected. It was impossible that the negotiation could be drawn out to any great length and he was sure that it would be shortened by the means which he now pointed out. In his opinion a satisfactory arrangement could only be obtained by proceeding in that manner.

The Earl of Donoughmore

said, so many allusions had been made to what had passed in another place, that it almost looked as if the members had been transposed from the one House to the other. In the place to which he alluded, they thought they had not sufficient reason to proceed, and they adjourned the debate; but undoubtedly that was no reason that should induce their lordships to stay the proceedings. This was not all, however; the subject was now treated as if their lordships had also adjourned the debate yesterday, for they had heard no arguments from his noble friends this evening that had not been urged in the course of their speeches last night. And why were they called on to pause? Truly, because in the other House of Parliament the debate had been adjourned. What reason had been laid before them to alter the course of their proceedings, which had been so solemnly decided upon last night—decided too by so great a majority, that those who differed in opinion from that majority did not think it proper to call for a division? What sort of argument was advanced, in order I to induce them to depart from the proceeding originally contemplated? He had heard none, except that a different course was taken in another place. It would not be at all material to quarrel about a day, or two days, or a week, in the decision of the present question. Every noble lord he was sure, wished it should be placed on a proper, decent, and constitutional footing, agreeably to the feelings of both the illustrious personages, and therefore in unison with the sentiments of all those who could boast of any degree of delicate and honourable feeling. On this ground, lie should have no objection to give as much time to the consideration of their proceedings as could with propriety be called for; but he asked, what individual argument, what reason, in the smallest degree forcible, had been laid before their lordships to grant an extension of time on the present occasion. They had nothing to do with what had occurred in the other House: an allusion to what passed there, if used as an argument was most untenable and most unparliamentary, lie must say, that if they altered the proceeding which they had last night agreed to, namely, that of balloting this day for a committee, they would do so on no good parliamentary ground, but merely because they chose to truckle and bow down to the other House of Parliament. Were they, because the other House had thought fit not to come to an immediate decision as their lordships had done, to say, "Oh! now we cannot venture to proceed, the other House of Parliament having suspended their judgment and postponed the debase, as they do on many other occasions, to another day." It seemed, because the members of the other House had not made up their minds, or for some other reason had postponed the debate, their lordships were, therefore, to stop a proceeding, the most: solemn, perhaps, on which that House had been called on to decide, taking into consideration the illustrious personages concerned, for many ages past. They were called on to forget their duty to themselves, to the importance of the subject under discussion, and the high dignity of the individuals connected with it, by immediately adopting, not the course of proceeding, not the opinion of the other House of Parliament—for they had expressed none—but merely adopting the postponement of that which they had previously agreed to perfect. They surely would not be induced to do so, because the simple fact had been stated, that the other House had not come to a decision on the subject, on which their lordships had last night promptly decided.

The Marquis of Lansdowne

said, that as a reproach had been cast against his noble friend near him and himself, on account of what had fallen from them, he felt himself called on to say that the accusation was not well founded. He, in common with the rest of their lordships, had a right, he conceived, to give an opinion on every part of these proceedings. Neither he nor his noble friend had expressed any desire to thwart the proceedings which had taken place in the House last night. It would be recollected, that he had not proposed to change that proceeding, which could not now in fact be recalled. He had risen to express an opinion in favour of the proposition of the noble baron opposite, who suggested the propriety of suspending the ballot till Monday. The noble earl opposite wished also that the proceeding should be suspended, but in another way. Nothing was, however, said by any noble lord, as to the propriety of altering the course which had been marked out last night. What he had said referred entirely to the comparative benefit that was likely to be derived from one of the modes proposed by the noble lords opposite, both of whom—he would not say, on account of what occurred in another House last night, lest he might incur the reproach of his noble friend who spoke last—seemed to have been impressed at the same moment with the necessity of suspending that course of proceeding on which, last night, their lordships had determined to act. What he had argued (and after what he had heard, his opinion was greatly strengthened, since the same feeling was expressed by the noble baron and the noble earl, and appeared to be participated in by the whole House) was, that the proceeding should be suspended. It was more consistent, he conceived, with true dignity, to express that feeling on the first occasion, instead of making believe, by the appointment of a committee, that they were determined to go OD, although circumstances might occur which might call on them to undo all that had previously been done. There was more dignity, he conceived, in taking the best means that occurred to them to prevent this committee, if possible, from sitting at all, than to hurry on the proceeding without making such an effort. He lamented that he differed from his noble friend, but he wished him to understand distinctly what the grounds of that difference were.

Their lordships then divided: Contents, present 82.—Proxies, 26–108: Non-Contents, present, 26—Proxies 3–29.—Majority for the earl of Liverpool's motion, 79. A committee of scrutiny was then appointed to inspect the balloting glasses. In a short time they returned to the House, when their chairman, the earl of Shaftesbury stated that the majority of suffrages had been given to the following peers:—The Archbishop of Canterbury, the lord chancellor, the lord president of the council, the duke of Beaufort, the duke of Northumberland, the marquis of Lansdowne, the marquis of Buckingham, the earl of Liverpool, the earl of Donoughmore, earl Beauchamp, viscount Sidmouth, the bishop of London, lord Re-desdale, lord Erskine, and the earl of Lauderdale. The committee were ordered to meet on Tuesday next.