Lords Sitting of 30 August 1820

Preamble
The order of the day being read for the further consideration and second reading of the Bill of Pains and Penalties against her majesty, &c, counsel were called in.
Then Paolo Raggazoni was called in, and sworn, and examined as follows by the Solicitor General, through the interpretation of the Marchese di Spineto.
Are you a native of Italy? I am.
In what part of Italy do you reside? At Biango.
Is that in the territory of Varese? It is.
What are you by business? A mason.
Were you ever employed as a mason to do business at the Villa d'Este? I was.
Had you any persons employed under you, or were you a mere workman? I was a master mason.
How many men had you employed under you? 20, 25, 30, 8, 12, according to the work.
During any part of the time you were employed doing work at the Villa d'Este, were the princess of Wales and Pergami residing there? No; when I went to the Villa d'Este they were at Bordo Vico.
Was that at the Villa Villani? Yes.
Did they afterwards come to the Villa d'Este while you were working there? They came.
Did you ever see the princess and Pergami, upon the lake at the Villa d'Este? I have seen them.
Was there any canoe there? There was.
Did you ever see them together in that canoe? I have.
Alone, or with other people? Alone.
Once, or more than once, or several times? More than once, more than twice.
Did you ever see them together in the garden? I have.
Have you ever seen them alone in the garden? Alone.
Once, or more than once, or several times? I have seen them more than once; but once I have seen the princess sitting in a chair with

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wheels or castors, and the baron behind pushing her to make her go.
After you had seen, in the manner you have described, the princess in the chair and the baron pushing or pulling that chair, did you afterwards see any body else in that chair? I have not; I have only seen them alone.
At the time when you saw the baron pushing the chair in the manner you have described, was there any body else with them, or were they, the baron and the princess, alone? The baron and the princess were alone.
Did you see the baron get into the chair? I did; the baron and the princess made the chair get forward.
You have stated that at the time when the princess was in the chair, the baron pushed or drew the chair; at the time when you saw the baron in the chair, who pushed or drew the chair? The princess pushed the chair.
Arc you to be understood that they were at that time alone? Alone, yes; Verona came and brought the chair and went away, and then the princess and the baron remained alone.
Have you at different times seen the princess and Pergami walking in the garden? I have seen them several times walking in the garden.
Have you seen them alone walking in the garden? Yes, alone.
In what manner have you observed them walking, were they separate or together? Arm in arm walking.
Have you seen that frequently or only seldom? More than once, more than three limes, I have seen it.
Do you recollect, at any time, being at work in a grotto in the garden? I do.
What work were you doing in that grotto? I was making a cornice to a round room.
Was there a room adjoining to that? Behind there was.
While you were at work, in the manner you have described, did you hear any body in that adjoining room? Yes, I heard somebody enter.
After you had heard somebody enter in the manner you have described, what did you hear? I heard somebody come in, and I put myself under the scaffold to see who it was, and I saw Pergami and the princess come; there were two figures, the figure of Adam on the right and the figure of Eve on the left, and Adam had the leaf of a fig below the navel, then they looked at those figures of Adam and Eve, and they laughed together.
You have told us that Adam had a fig leaf, was there any fig-leaf to Eve? Yes.
Can you state how they were fastened on? They were fastened with a little bough; they put the leaf aside and looked at what was underneath; by "ramino," I mean a wire that went all round the figure; and that the princess and Pergami put aside this fig-leaf to see what was underneath.
Where were you yourself during the whole
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of that time? I was behind a pilaster to look what they were doing; and when I saw that they were coming towards me, then I mounted on my scaffold, and worked at my cornice.
Are you to be understood that those two figures were in the room next to that in which you were at work? They were behind the room where I was at work, by ten or twelve yards.
What kind of communication was there between the place where you were at work and the place where those two figures of Adam and Eve were standing? Here was the room of Adam and Eve, then followed a small corridor at the bottom; there were two doors, one to the right and another to the left, and in the middle there was a pilaster; and I placed myself behind the pilaster to look; and behind there was the round room where I was at work.
Did you place yourself there in consequence of your hearing somebody in the room where the figures were? I did.
When they removed the leaf in the manner you have described, what did they do? They talked together, and looked sometimes at one, sometimes at another, between themselves, laughing.
Do you remember an entertainment that was given at the Villa d'Este on St. Bartholomew's day? I do.
At what hour of the night or the morning did you go home to go to bed to a place called II Paese? Sometimes I went to bed atone o'clock, sometimes at half-past one.
The question refers to the night on which this entertainment was given; do you remember going through the garden for the purpose of going to a place called II Paese? Yes, I remember one evening I was going to II Paese to sleep.
Is that place you have mentioned part of the Villa d'Este"? Yes, it is; immediately after the Villa d'Este there is a garden, after which there is a park, at the end of which there is II Paese, and there is wood on both sides.
Do you know a person called Domenico Brusa? I do; we have been together.
Do you know one Eurico Bai? I do not.
Upon the night which has been mentioned, when you were going to the place you have described, who was with you? Domenico Brusa.
As nearly as you can recollect, what hour was it you passed through the garden of the Villa d'Este with Domenico Brusa? About one or half-past one.
Interpreter.—The Italian and the English time is reckoned in a different manner.
Do you reckon by the Italian or the French hour? The Italian hour.
Interpreter.—We reckon the hour, not from twelve to twelve, but from one to twenty-four; the Sun, according to the Italian mode of calculation, always sets at half an hour past the three-and-twenty, the remaining half hour

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is generally allowed for twilight, and that completes the twenty-four hours.
Mr. Solicitor General to the Marchese.—Will you translate into English time the time?
Interpreter.—Then I must know the time of year, taking it at Bartholomew's day, it would he about half-past nine at night, according to the English mode of calculating.
To the Witness.—When you were passing through the garden did you see the princess and Pergami? They were not in the garden, they were at the bottom of the park, sitting upon a bench.
Were they alone? They were alone.
Did you ever attend at the theatre at the Villa d'Este? I have been there.
Did you ever see the princess and Pergami act together upon that theatre? I have.
Have you seen that more than once? Only once.
Do you recollect what part was played by the princess? The princess was performing the character of a sick woman, and the baron went to visit her.
In what character did the baron go to visit her? He went to feel her hand, and to perform the part of a doctor.
The Solicitor General stated, that there was some doubt whether in Lombardy they calculated by the Italian method, and that it was very desirable to know, whether the hour to which the witness referred was half past nine or half past one; he therefore requested permission to put a question upon that point.
When you say it was about one or half-past one that you saw Pergami and the princess sitting in the manner you have described, according to the best of your recollection, how long was it after sun-set? The sun had been setting for an hour and a half.
Mr. Cohen,—My lords, I was born in Lombardy myself, and I know this is the mode of reckoning.
Cross-examined by Dr. Lushinglon.
Have you ever been examined before? No; I have been examined at Milan.
When was that? In the year 1818.
By whom? The advocate Vimercati.
Was any one else present? There was.
Who? I do not know.
Do you know colonel Brown? I do not.
How came you to go to Milan to be examined? The government sent for me to go to Milan to be examined, and I went.
What government? The government of Milan sent for me that I should appear before the police.
Did they send an officer of Justice to you, or how? They sent Restelli, a courier.
Who is Restelli? A courier.
Had you known Restelli before? I had.
Where? At the Villa d'Este.
Did he formerly live with the princess of Wales? He did
Was he in her service as a courier? Yes;
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he was chief groom or courier, he belonged to the stable.
What passed between you and Restelli when he came to you? He told me that I must go to Milan, by an order of government. Was that all he told you? He told me that I must go to Milan, because the government wanted me; I said I could not go, and he answered that I must go, because government wanted me.
Was that the whole, did he say nothing else to you? No.
How long was he with you? A little. How long, as nearly as you can recollect? He came once to ask me.
How long, as nearly as you can recollect, was he with you? No time at all, he came to tell me, that I was obliged to go to Milan, and then went away immediately in a chaise. Did he tell you what you were to go to Milan for? He did not, he told me nothing.
When you went to Milan, for what purpose did you go? I went to tell the truth, because he told me, you must go because you have been living with the princess at Como, and therefore you must go, and tell what you know.
Then he did tell you you were to be examined respecting the princess of Wales? Yes; he told me nothing to say, but merely, you have been there at work, and therefore the government want to see you, and you must go to be spoken to by the government.
Had you ever before that time spoken to any body respecting the circumstances you have now stated? No, I can swear this that never any body came for this purpose.
Had you ever before that time, spoken to any body respecting the circumstances you have now stated? No.
How many workmen have you employed at the Villa d'Este? 10, 12, 14; when the baron told me, "I want more masons," I sent for more, and I had 18 or 20; when he was not so pressing I sent them away.
Were all those persons sent to Milan to be examined? No, not one of them.
When you were examined at Milan, was what you said taken down in writing? It was taken in writing.
Did you sign it? I did. Were you sworn? Yes, I took an oath at Milan.
Who swore you? The advocate Vimercati. In what form? He told me, "Are you ready to swear upon the truth," and I said, "Yes, the truth."
Were you sworn upon the gospels, or in what manner? He told me. you are then ready to come and swear to the truth, I said yes, I am ready to come and swear to the truth.
Were you sworn upon the cross at that time? Yes, I took the oath upon the cross; I took the cross which I carry about me, and I kissed it myself before Vimercati.
Who was present besides Vimercati at that

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time? There wore two or four more people who were present, but I do not know who they were, I have given my examination, but I do not know who they were.
Were they Englishmen? I believe that they were Englishmen.
Have you ever since that time seen the deposition you signed? Yes, I signed my name, I gave it in, and then I went away.
Have you ever seen the deposition you signed since that time that you signed it? No, I have not seen it since.
Have you been ever examined since that time? No.
Has no one spoken to you about the evidence you were to give since you have been in England? No.
What did you receive for going to Milan to be examined? I have received nothing, not even this, which means not even a pin, not even a drop of water; I took my horse, I mounted my horse, and I went.
Were you then told that you were to be sent to England? Yes, they told me that they were going to send me to England.
When was that? Now, when the government sent for me.
When you were examined at Milan, did they then tell you you were to be sent to England? No, they told me that I should be obliged to go and swear before a tribunal.
What did you say in answer to that? I said yes, I was ready whenever they ordered, because I was going to tell the truth.
Are all the bills paid for the work you did at the Villa d'Este? They have not been all paid, but there is a little still owing to me from the chief mason.
Is any thing owing to you from the princess of Wales? No, nothing.
From whom did you receive the money for your bills for the princess's work? The chief mason, the head mason paid me, gave me money, I was working, and then whenever I wanted money the chief mason gave it to me; I had nothing to do with the princess.
Who first directed you to come to England? The government, who told me to come to England, for I did not wish to come, for I am a married man, and my wife is with child, and I have an old father, and I did not wish to come, and the government told me I must come, and it would be a business of a month or six weeks.
Did you come by yourself, or with any one else? We have been together, but I know no one, for I am alone.
Did you come with a courier? I did.
From Milan? From Milan.
What was the name of the courier? Restelli.
Do you not know the names of any of the other persons who came with you? No, they attended to their business, and I attended to mine, because I did not wish to come, and was even crying.
Do not you know the names of any one of
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those persons that you travelled with? I know the names only of three, Brusa, Bianchi, and Enrico Bai.
Have you continued to live with them since you have been in England? I have.
Where? I do not know, it is a place just by; I do not know what it is, for I never have been in this place before; if I knew the place I would tell you.
Is it close by? It is near.
Was Brusa with you yesterday? No.
From the time that you signed your deposition at Milan, have you had any conversation as to these facts, till to-day, with any person whatever? I have been speaking with nobody.
You have never spoken with any one, except at Milan, from the time the circumstances you have stated took place? I never said any thing to any person; I never have opened my mouth with any person, and as I never have appeared before in a tribunal of justice, I said to the curate of my country, that I did not wish to come, and he told me that I might go.
Have you been employed by the princess of Wales to make a monument? No, I was told by the architect Ratta to come and work at the princess's; so I went and worked there for two years.
How many times have you seen Restelli since the year 1816? Never; I never have seen him since he came to speak to me.
Re-examined by Mr. Solicitor General.
Is Enrico Bai, whom you have mentioned, also in the neighbourhood? He is here.
You have told us that Restelli came to you, in order that you might go to Milan; who was it that came with you as courier to this country? From Milan to Holland, Restelli; and from Holland here, English people.
Look at this gentleman (Mr. Bourchier); were any questions asked you in the place near this court, as to the circumstances to which you have now deposed?
Mr. Brougham objected to this line of examination.
The counsel were informed, that the answer of the witness on cross-examination may be read to him, and that he may be called upon to explain it.
The short-hand writer of the House being directed to read the answer of the witness referred to, stated, that conceiving the examination of this witness to have been closed, he had sent out the notes to be copied.
The Solicitor-General applied to their lordships, that the witness might stand by until the examination of the next witness; and that in the meantime he should have no communication with any other person.
Mr. Brougham acceded to this proposal.
Their lordships directed that his further examination should be postponed for the present. The witness was directed to withdraw.
Then Gerolamo Mejani was called in, and sworn, and examined as follows by Mr. Parke, through the interpretation of the Marchesc di Spineto:
Are you a native of Italy? I am:
Of what profession are you? A writer.
Were you at any time in the service of the princess of Wales? I was.
For what length of time? About two months.
Was that at the Villa d'Estc? At the Villa d'Este.
In what capacity were you employed by the princess of Wales? As a director or superintendant of her gardens.
In what year was it you commenced your employment? At the end of the year 1816, and in the beginning of the year 1817.
Do you know a person of the name of Pergami? I do.
Did you know Pergami before he was in the service of the princess? I did, at Monza.
In what circumstances was he when you knew him? He was an excise officer, that is to say, he belonged to an Excise office, and went to put the Excise mark upon the casks of wine under the order of the officer.
In what circumstances was he as to money? When I have known him he was a poor man.
How long was that before you saw Pergami in the princess's service? I have seen Pergami in the service of the princess at the Villa d'Este, but I do not know at what time he went into her service.
How long is it that you knew him in the employment you have stated before you saw him in the princess's service? I had known him between two and three years, but I am not precise as to the length of time.
When you were at Villa d'Este, had you opportunities of seeing the princess and Pergami together? I had.
Did you see them often together? Often, every day I saw them.
What was their conduct towards each other when you have seen them? They behaved towards each other with the utmost friendship, as if they were married.
When they were walking together, did they walk separate from each other or arm in arm? Arm in arm.
Did you ever sec them together in a canoe? Yes, I have seen them several times, at different times.
Were they alone in the canoe or was some person with them? Alone, he and her royal highness together.
Did you ever see them together riding in a carriage? I have.
Did you ever see them together in a carriage called a padovanello? I have.
Describe in what manner they sat in the padovanello? Pergami was sitting in the back part, and the princess on his knee.
Was anybody else in the carriage? No one else.
Did you ever see Pergami and the princess in the kitchen together? Several times.
What were they doing in the kitchen? They were eating on the table there, where the cook was used to eat.
When you saw them, were they eating from one plate or two? Sometimes from one plate, sometimes from two.
Do you know the gate leading from the little garden into the great garden"? I do.
Do you remember seeing the princess and Pergami together near that gate? Yes.
How far were you off from them when you saw them together? Twenty or thirty paces; I have not reckoned them;
Did you observe them do any think to each other? I have seen them once kiss.
Was that on the month? I was behind, and I have not made this observation.
Was that on the mouth? They made a motion (imitating it); whether they kissed on the mouth or not I do not know.
Was it on the mouth or the cheek? I was behind, and I have not been able to see whether he kissed her on the mouth or on the cheek.
Have you heard the princess and Pergami conversing together, talking to each other? Yes, I have seen them several times, they always were talking to one another.
In what way did they talk to each other? They sometimes spoke French, which I could not understand, except that once I heard a word, which was "mon cœur," (my heart).
Cross-examined by Mr. Tindal.
When were you first applied to upon this subject? I want to know whether it is meant when I was examined or spoken to; but at Milan I was spoken to.
When did any person first apply to you before you went to Milan? They sent me a person whom I do not know, he told me that they wanted me at Milan upon this subject, but I do not know the person.
When was that? In February, 1818, eighteen months ago; February or January, I do not know exactly which.
Had you mentioned to anybody before that what you knew upon the subject? Nothing; I did no longer think of it.
Where were you living at the time that person applied to you? At Monza:
How far is that from Milan? Ten miles.
What situation in life were you in at that time? A writer.
What do you mean by a writer? I kept account books.
Whom did you keep accounts for? For all the affairs belonging to the park, for the prince Beauharnois, the viceroy of Italy.
Did the person who applied to you, come more than once? Once only;
Did you go immediately to Milan? No, because I had something to write and to do, and I made him wait a day:
Did he tell you what you were to do when

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you got to Milan? Nothing; he only told me that the advocate Vimercati wanted to speak to me, nothing else.
Had not you the curiosity to ask what it was about? I asked, but he would not tell me.
Why did you go then, not knowing any thing about the matter? He told me when I was at Milan, for then I asked him for what motive, and he told me for this, and this.
Then you went to Milan without knowing what you were going for? They had told me, that the advocate Vimercati wanted to speak to me, but they did not tell me the motive till I reached Milan.
Did you know Vimercati before? I have heard his name mentioned, for he was a friend to a friend of mine, advocate Marochi; but I never had known him.
Whom did you see when you got to Milan? Nobody.
What persons did you see or go before on this subject when you got to Milan? When I reached Milan they told me the hour at which I ought to call at the House of Vimercati; there was this Vimercati, two or three other persons whom I did not know, and two other Milanese, whom I did not know.
Were those two or three persons whom you did not know English? They told me they were Englishmen, but I did not know them.
Did you hear the names of them? No, then I did not; afterwards I heard their names.
Was the name of one of them colonel Brown? I heard it afterwards, but then I did not know him.
Was the name of one of the others Mr. Powell? I never heard of him but after five or six months, but at that time I did not know him.
Do you now know that one of the persons you saw there was Mr. Powell? I have known him here.
How long did you remain at Milan? Two days.
Was that the only time you went there upon this business? The only one.
Were you examined on each of those days, or only on one? On the last day they examined me.
Was your examination taken down in writing? Yes; they made me even sign it.
Did you also swear to it? They had made me to swear to come before any tribunal, and if I had known any such thing I should not have signed it.
Did you take that oath upon the cross? No; they only told the that here we must come and tell the truth, and that we must say the truth, neither more nor less, only what I have seen with my eyes, without lies.
What did you receive for your journey to Milan, and staying there two days? They paid my expenses and gave me twenty francs, and I was obliged to add a franc of my own out of my own pocket
When did yon leave Italy for the purpose of coming here? On the 29th of June.
Who came with you? We were twelve; the names of them all I do not know; I know them by sight.
Was Theodore Majoochi one of them? No; his wife alone.
Do you mean that the wife came with you, or with Theodore Majoochi? Yes, the wife came with us.
Who first told you that you were to come to England? A certain Restelli came to tell me so.
Who is Restelli? Restelli was a man in the service of the princess.
Was he in the service of the princess when he came to you? No he was no longer in her service.
Do you know in whose service he was at that time? I do not know.
Do you know why Restelli quitted the princess's service? I know nothing of that.
Did you know him while he was in her service? I have known him in the service of the princess, and I have also known him before, when I was at court.
Recollect yourself; do you not know that he was dismissed from the princess's service for stealing corn?
Mr. Parke objected to the question.
The counsel were directed to proceed.
The question was put to the witness.
I know nothing of this.
Who spoke to you to come to England besides Restelli? Colonel Brown.
Did Restelli take you to colonel Brown? Restelli came to tell me so on the 15th of June, but on the 27th a letter came which obliged me to go to Milan.
What agreement did Restelli or any other person make with you for your coming here?
Mr. Parke objected to the question.
Mr. Tindal.—What agreement was made by you with Restelli for your coming over to England?
Mr. Parke objected to the question, as assuming that an agreement was made.
The counsel were informed, that, in strictness, the question could not be put in its present form.
Mr. Tindal.—Was any agreement made between you and Restelli for your coming over here? No agreement.
Was any agreement made by you with any body else? I have made no agreement.
What was your occupation at the time you left Italy? I was a writer as I stated before.
Are you to be understood that you have made no agreement with any one upon the subject of your coming here? I have made no agreement whatever.
Have you had any promise made to you that you shall receive any thing? None.
Then have you left Italy and your business

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without any promise of any compensation? They have made me no promise of compensation, or any thing else.
Have you seen Paturzo since you came here? I do not know Paturzo.
Have you seen Majoochi since you came here? I have seen him.
Has he told you how lie was examined here? Nothing, he told me nothing.
Have you never spoken to him on the subject? We were talking together, and he said you will go up stairs, and then you will see how many people there are.
Did not he also tell you, that there were two sets of counsel, one on your left hand and the other on your right? I did not hear that.
Has no other person put that into your head? Nobody.
Did Majoochi dine with you yesterday? Yes.
And sup with you at night? Yes, he did sup last night.
Have you lived together every day since you came to England? No.
Have you seen him most days? I have seen him since the time I have been here in this place.
You stated that you saw the princess and Pergami in a canoe upon the lake of Como; are there not many villages and houses surrounding the lake of Como? There are villages and houses, many.
Is there not a great traffic kept up, in passing backwards and forwards across the lake? Boats are passing.
There are no roads round the lake, are there are? There are foot-paths where the country people go.
Is not the regular traffic or intercourse from one side of the lake to the other, kept up by boats? There are always boats going to and fro, some with wood, some with charcoal.
Was the carriage that you described the princess and Pergami to be in, an open carriage? It is an open carriage, it is a small chair.
Re-examined by Mr. Parke.
What size is the lake of Como, what length and what breadth? The length begins from Como, and goes straight forward, the breadth is a mile, or a mile and a half.
Do you know about how many miles the length is? Beginning from Como to Cevennes is nearly sixty miles they say, but I have not measured them.
The witness was directed to withdraw.
Then Paolo Raggazoni was again called in, and the following questions were read over to him.
"Have you been ever examined since that time? No.
"Has no one spoken to you about the evidence you were to give since you have been in England? No.
"From the time that you signed your de-
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position at Milan, have you had any conversation as to these facts till to-day, with any person whatever? I have been speaking with nobody.
"You have never spoken with any one, except at Milan, from the time the circumstances you have stated took place? I never said any thing to any person; I have never opened my mouth with any person: and as I never have appeared before any tribunal of justice, I said to the curate of my country, that I did not wish to come, and he told me that I might go."
Lord Chancellor.—Do you mean to say, that you never have been examined in England previously to your appearance here this morning? There was somebody who took me into a room, and asked me, whether it was true that I had said so, and I said "Yes."
When was that? I do not know the day.
Earl of Liverpool.—About how many days ago? It was last week; I do not know the day, but it was last week.
The following question was put at the request of Mr. Brougham.
Had the gentleman who took you into that room a paper in his hand? Yes, he had a paper in his hand; and he was reading from this paper; and put me the question, and asked me whether it was so; and I said "yes," when I knew it was true.
The following question and answer were read over to the witness.
"Have you ever been examined since that time? No."
Earl Grey.—You have stated that you have signed a deposition at Milan: you have also stated that you have not since been examined: what do you mean by stating that you had not been since examined? I was thinking that you were asking me whether I had been examined at Milan before I came to England, and I was not examined there.
Then Paolo Oggioni was called in, and sworn, and examined as follows by the Attorney General, through the interpretation of the Marchcse di Spincto:
What countryman are you? Of Lodi.
Were you ever in the service of the princess of Wales? I have been.
In what capacity? Under cook.
How long were you in that service? Almost a year.
At what places? At the Villa d'Este and the Barona.
About how long ago is it that you quitted the princess's service? In the year 1817.
Did you know Pergami? I did.
Where did you first know him? At Lodi.
How long ago? Between the year 1805 and 1809.
In what situation was Pergami when you first knew him? I have seen him about Lodi, and then I have seen him in prison.

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Where did you see him in prison? At Lodi.
Mr. Denman submitted to their' lordships, whether this could be evidence.
Was Pergami in the princess's service while your were in her royal highness's service as under cook? He was.
What was Pergami's situation in the princess's house, or service, when you were there? Baron.
You say he was a baron, what was his situation in the household of the princess at that time? He commanded over the household.
Have you ever seen during the time that you were in the service of the princess, the princess and Pergami together? I have.
Where have you seen them together? Going out and in the kitchen.
When you have seen them walking togegether, in what manner were they walking? Arm in arm.
Have you ever seen the princess riding on horseback or otherwise? I have.
Has any one been with her, when you have seen her riding? The baron and one of the servants.
You have said that you have seen the princess in the kitchen with Pergami, in what manner have they come into the kitchen? They came arm in arm.
For what purpose have they come into the kitchen? Sometimes to come and eat something.
By sometimes, do you mean many times, or few? Many times.
You say they came for the purpose of eating, had they any thing to eat in the kitchen? They had,
When you were, at the Barona, did you ever know any balls given by the princess there? I have.
Who used to attend those balls? The country people of low rank in life.
Did the princess use to dance with those persons? No, she danced by herself, and sometimes with Pergami.
Did she dance at the same time with the country people and low people, who were there at those balls? She did.
Do you know the wife of the inn-keeper of the St Christopher? I do.
Was she at those balls? She came twice.
Do you know any of the other women who came to those balls? There came the daughters of the farmer who had hired the Barona.
What do you mean by hiring the Barona, do you mean the tenant of the farm? Yes, the man who hired the land of the Barona; the tenant.
In what rooms did the dancing take place? In the dining-room.
Were any of the other rooms used upon those occasions? There were.
What other rooms? It was a room next to it which led on to the stairs that led into the room of the princess.
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At those balls did any of the nobility of the neighbourhood come? No.
At the Barona have you seen the princess and Pergami together? I have.
Where? In the kitchen, and walking many times.
When you have seen them walking, were they walking alone, or was any other person with them? I have seen them alone.
Do you know a person of the name of Mahomet? I do.
Have you ever seen him perform any dance? I have.
Have you at any time when Mahomet has been performing his dance seen the princess? Her royal highness was present.
In what manner did Mahomet dance or perform at that time? He did so. [The witness made a motion snapping the fingers.]
Were those the only motions he made? I have seen him several different times always make the same gesticulations.
Have you seen the princess present upon more than one occasion, or only one occasion when Mahomet was performing this dance? I have seen her more than once.
Where? At the Villa d'Este and the Barona.
In what part of the house, or was it in the house that the princess was present? Twice in the kitchen, at other times in the court.
Upon' those occasions when the princess was present, did Mahomet do any thing with any part of his dress? He took his breeches and made a kind of aroll of it, and made it so, [making a motion in the front of his person.]
In what position was that roll? With the breeches twisted round before, so [putting his hand to the front of his breeches].
When the princess was present upon those occasions, did she look at Mahomet? She did.
Did she say or do any thing upon those occasions? She laughed.
Cross-examined by Mr. Wilde.
When did you leave the princess's service? In the year 1817.
Were you discharged for drunkenness? No.
Did you go away of your own accord? When she set out to go to Rome, I was left behind, with other six servants.
Do you mean that you were discharged at that time? I was; but my discharge was when she set out, till a further order, and this further order never came.
Did you receive any pay from the princess after that? No, I did not.
What service did you next enter into? In the house of a priest; I went into the service of a priest, but I do not remember his name.
Where did he live? He was the minister of the great hospital at Milan.
Where did he live? He dwelt in Milan.
How long did you live in his service? A year.
Living a year in his service, do you mean that you do not know his name? I do not remember the name.
When did you enter into that person's service? When I left the princess.
How soon after the princess left to go to Home? After six months.
Do you mean that you were out of service for six months after you left the princess's service? Now I remember the name of the priest is called Borbona.
Do you mean that you were out of service six months? I was.
Where did you live during that time? At my house.
Where? At Lodi.
How did you support yourself during that time? From my house.
How did you support yourself during that time? Economically, with my money.
Are you a married man, or were you a married man at that time? I was.
Have you any family? One child.
Do you mean that you have saved money enough to live without work for six months, and to support your family? I do.
Are your wife and child over in England with you? They are not.
Where are they? At Lodi.
In what capacity were you with the person you have mentioned? A footman and cook.
How long did you continue in that service? Almost a year.
What was your next service? The viceprefect of Monza.
Where were you when you were first aplied to to give information upon this subject? I was with the architect Albigi.
Where does he live? At Milan.
Who applied to you? I was applied to by the police.
Had you ever mentioned any of the circumstances you have stated to-day, before that application? I had not.
Are you quite sure that that application was made to you before you had said any thing to any body upon that subject? I never said any thing, except when I was sent for, when I knew nothing of this.
Were you examined at Milan? I was.
How often? Once.
Was your examination put into writing? It was.
Have you seen that examination since? I have not.
Have you ever been examined since, either at Milan or in England? I have been examined also in England.
Had the person who examined you any paper to examine you from? He did write, but I do not know what paper he had; he wrote down what I said.
The question is, whether the person who examined you read a paper? He did.
Who applied to you to come to England? The government at Milan.
Were you at that time in your place with the architect? I was.
Have you given up your place? They have taken me to bring me here, and so I was obliged to give it up.
Do you know a person named Restelli? I do.
Have you had any communication with him since you left the princess's service? I have not.
Do you know Majoochi? I know him here.
How long have you been here? I do not remember how long I have been here; I do not remember how many days.
Have you seen Majoochi every day since you have been here? I have.
And Restelli? No.
You have been describing some dances of Mahomet; who were present when those dances were performed? The princess and the baron.
Were you present? I was.
Was any body else? There were many others, but I paid no attention to who they were.
Re-examined by Mr. Attorney General.
You have been asked, whether the person who examined you in England had a paper in his hand, and whether he read it; did he read it aloud to you, or was he reading it to himself? He read it to himself.
You have said that you do not know how long you have been in England; have you been in England more than once? Yes.
Do you remember how long ago it is, the first time that you came here? I do not remember the day, I have it not in my mind.
Where did you come to when you first came to England? To the inn.
Do you know the name of the inn where you landed the first time you came? I do not know, because it was in the night.
Did any thing happen there the first time you came?
Mr. Denmansaid, that for the sake of their lordships, and in order to save time, he objected to this question. It was unconnected with the case. If their lordships thought the question ought to be put as to what passed on witness's arrival in England, he would not object to it.
The Attorney Generalobserved, that it was for their lordships to decide whether he ought to ask the question. Witness was asked the period of his arrival in England, no doubt with a view to some particular object, not to waste their lordships time, and he conceived he had a right to re-examine on the same point.
Mr. Denmansaid, that he had no objection to any inquiry relative to witness's second arrival in this country, but if this question was to be urged as a precedent, to be referred to for particular purposes, he objected to it. It was not decent to put it; but decent, or indecent, he contended that it was wholly irregular, as it had nothing to do with the

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question. He called their lordships' attention to it, not because the question was likely to elucidate any thing, but because it was giving the go-by to the real question, and raising a new question to which he would have no opportunity of replying. Besides, it would give his learned friend an opportunity of leading their lordships' mind from the real case.
The Attorney General was directed to proceed.
Did any thing occur upon your first coming to England which enables you to recollect about what time it was that you came here? I do not remember when I arrived in England.
Is there any circumstance which will revive your recollection? The first time I came to England I landed at Dover.
How long did you remain in England then? A night and a day.
Where did you go to then?
Mr. Denman objected to this question.
The Attorney Generalcontended that he had a right to put the question. The witness had been asked how long he had been in England, and where he now was, with a view to show that the witnesses were living together; he therefore had a right to show why that was now the case.
Mr. Denmansaid, that his learned friend's statement took him completely out of court. He was sure their lordships would not now try that collateral question, namely, what circumstances operated upon the witness's mind to induce him to join the other witnesses? This might produce an injurious impression towards his client. The attorney-general, who was there only to see justice done to all parties, ought not to put the question; at all events, he begged it might not be put until their lordships had formed their judgment on it.
The counsel were informed, that if it has been the tendency of the cross-examination, for purposes hereafter to be explained, to argue upon the consequence of those witnesses being all kept together, a re-examination might be admitted to show the cause of their all being kept together.
Whereupon the following extracts were read from the evidence:
"How long have you been here? I do not remember how long I have been here, I do not remember how many days.
Have you seen Majoochi every day since you have been here? I have.
And Restelli? No."
The counsel were informed, that the cross-examination did not lay a sufficient ground for the above questions.
Examined by the Lords.
Marquis of Lansdown.—On the occasion on which you have described Mahomet to have used certain gesticulations in the presence of
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her royal highness twice in the kitchen and once in the court, can you state from your own knowledge, whether on those occasions Mahomet had been sent for by her royal highness for that purpose? Her royal highness never sent for Mahomet, her highness altogether did not send for Mahomet.
You have described that Mahomet twisted part of his breeches into a roll, do you know what that roll was meant to represent? It seems as if it was the yard of a man, the membrum virile.
When this was performed, did her royal highness retire, or did she remain at the place where she was? She remained there and laughed.
Earl of Liverpool.—When you state that her royal highness did not send for Mahomet on the occasion of his using certain gesticulations, do you mean that her royal highness did not send you for Mahomet, or that you know that her royal highness did not send for Mahomet at all? I never saw any person sent to fetch him, and I do not know whether any person was sent to fetch him; I know that she came when he was dancing.
How long did her royal highness remain present during the time that Mahomet was using these gesticulations? She remained some little when she came under the arm of the baron, but how long she staid I paid no attention, because I attended to my work.
Lord Combermere.—Did any thing particular happen to you upon your first arrival at Dover? Yes, much.
State what that was?
Mr. Denmanobjected to this question. He submitted, that unless the circumstance alluded to could be stated to have happened in the presence of her royal highness, or could, in some way or other, be connected with her agents, their lordships could not, according to the received rules of evidence which governed the inferior courts, allow the question to be put. Their lordships, he conceived, must at once see the propriety and necessity of objecting to a question of this nature.
Mr. Broughamsaid, their lordships had always been ready to give a certain liberty to counsel in objecting to questions that appeared irregular; and. if they looked to former trials in that House—he spoke particularly of regular trials—they would find that the party prosecuted had been allowed so to object, by the indulgence of their lodships.
The counsel were informed, that unless it could be shown that the princess was connected with what happened at Dover, what happened at Dover was not evidence on this inquiry.
The Earl of Lauderdaleconceived, that the decision on the propriety of the question must depend on what followed it. For instance, something was said about the receipt of money; and then the witness was asked, whe-

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ther money had been offered at Dover? This laid the foundation for other inquiries, which could not be made, unless originally some ground was formed for proceeding.
The Lord Chancellorobserved, that the noble lord who put the question might give reasons for asking it, and it would then be for the House to decide whether it should be put or not. But, at present, it was so general, that the House knew not how to apply it.
Earl Grey—No foundation having been given for this question, I conceive the learned lord on the woolsack has very properly stated that it cannot be put. This point has already been decided on the re-examination: and though I am ready to contend for the fullest latitude of examination by your lordships, I think you will find it a matter of sound discretion to pause before you allow a question to be put, which the House, on the decision of the judges, has already decided cannot be regularly put.
The question was withdrawn.
Lord Falmouth.—You have mentioned balls given by the princess; who asked the company to those balls, did the princess, or were the servants allowed to ask their friends? I do not know who invited the company; they came, but I do not know who invited them, because I attended to my work.
Are you to be understood that they were not servants' balls? They were not.
Lord De Dunstanville.—Did you consider the motions of Mahomet as the customary motions of Mahomet in his dances? Yes, he always made this gesture, as a custom he had in his dances.
Earl of Darnley.—You have stated that at the exhibitions of Mahomet many persons were present; were women present as well as men? No women.
Then Louisa Demont was called in and sworn, and examined through the interpretation of the Marchese di Spineto.
Mr. Williams.—You do not understand English, do you? Tres peu.
How long have you been in England? Treize mois.
Have not you talked English at all? Tres feu.
Have you not been in the habit of speaking English? [In French, through the Marchese di Spineto.] I cannot speak it; I understand it very little.
Examined by the Solicitor General, through the interpretation of the Marchese di Spineto.
Of what country are you a native? Of the Pays de Vaud, Switzerland.
Are you of the Protestant, or the Catholic religion? I am a Protestant.
Did you enter into the service of the princess of Wales? I have been.
Where did you reside at that time, just before you went into her service, what was your home? At Colombier.
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Where did you first go, for the purpose of seeing the princess of Wales? To Geneva.
Did you make any engagement with the princess of Wales at Geneva, or did you make an engagement after you had seen her at Geneva? I had engaged myself to live in her service, with her maitre de hotel, for five years.
Was that at Geneva? Yes.
Did you enter into her service in fact at Geneva, or did you afterwards enter into her service at any other place? I entered her royal highness's service at Lausanne.
Did you proceed with her royal highness from Lausanne to Milan? I did.
You have stated, that you entered into the service of her royal highness for five years; in what situation or capacity did you enter into her service? First femme de chambre.
Slate when you arrived at Milan of whom the suite of her royal highness consisted? Gentlemen, or all together.
State first the gentlemen? There were four gentlemen, sir William Gell, Mr. Craven, Dr. Holland, and Mr. Hesse.
State what ladies composed her suite at that time? Lady Elizabeth Forbes.
At what place did you lodge upon your arrival at Milan? In an inn.
What was the name of that inn? The Royal Hotel, I believe.
Do you remember a person of the name of Pergami, who was engaged at that place in the service of her royal highness? I remember it well.
In what situation or capacity was he engaged to serve her royal highness? Courier.
As nearly as you can recollect, how many days was this before her royal highness quitted Milan? About a fortnight; I do not recollect exactly.
During the fourteen or fifteen days to which you have spoken, did Pergami wait at table upon her royal highness? He waited at table.
From Milan, did her royal highness pass through Rome in her way to Naples? Yes, she passed through Rome.
Do you recollect a young person of the. name of William Austin being with her royal highness? I do.
Before the princess arrived at Naples, where was William Austin in the habit of sleeping' usually? Generally he slept in the room of her royal highness.
Do you recollect in what house her royal highness slept on the night before she entered the city of Naples? In a country house.
Do you recollect whether William Austin slept in the room of her royal highness in that country house? I cannot positively say about that night, but generally he was in the habit of sleeping in the room with her royal highness.
Had her royal highness, about that time, any conversation with you about the place of sleeping of William Austin? Her royal highs ness told me, during that same evening, in

1113
the country house, that William Austin had become too big a boy to sleep in her own room, and he must have a chamber to himself.
Up to this period, of which you have been speaking, did Pergami breakfast and dine with the other servants? He dined always at our table, the table at which I dined.
Do you know what room was allotted for Pergami upon the first night of his arrival at Naples? I do not know.
Do you remember the room in which he slept on the second night of your arrival at Naples? Yes, I do.
Was that room near the room which was occupied by her royal highness? It was near.
Was there an internal communication between the two rooms? There was one.
What was there between the two chambers? A small cabinet with a fire-place, and a passage.
What was there between the two chambers? A small cabinet and a passage.
Could you pass from the room of the princess into the room of Pergami, by going along that passage, and through the small cabinet? Yes.
Was there any door communicating from that passage to any other part of the house? There was a door that led out of the passage.
When that door was closed, and when the door of her royal highness's apartment was closed, and the outer door of Pergami's room was closed, could any body have access to those rooms and that passage? No, there were only those doors.
Did her royal highness, on the evening after her arrival at Naples, go to the opera? Her royal highness told me whilst I was dressing her that she was going to the opera.
Did she return early or late from the opera that evening? It seemed to me that she returned early.
Upon her return, did she go into her bedroom?
Mr. Williams objected to the question.
Upon her return, where did she go? I found her in her bed-room.
Were you in the bedroom yourself? I was not there, but she sent for me.
Upon your arrival in the bed-room of the princess, what did the princess do? Her royal highness crossed the passage, and went into the cabinet.
Do you know where Pergami was at that time? I do not know.
After her royal highness had gone into the cabinet, what did she then do? I do not know what she did, but she returned immediately into the bed-room where I was.
Did she say any thing to you; did she give you any orders? Her royal highness told me to forbid William Austin to enter into her room, because she wished to sleep quietly.
Where did William Austin sleep that night? In a small cabinet, where he remained all the time we were at Naples.
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Was that cabinet adjoining to the bed-room of the princess? It was near, there was a door of communication.
Do you know whether that door was open or shut that night? I saw it shut.
When that door was shut, was there any communication between that cabinet and the passage of which you have spoken? There was none but the passage.
What beds were there that night in the bed-room of the princess? Two; a large one and a small one.
What was the small bed? The travelling bed of her royal highness.
Did her royal highness usually sleep on that bed? She slept in it generally.
Was that bed, or not, made up that night for her royal highness? I saw in the evening that it was made.
Did you take any notice of the other bed, whether there were sheets on it, or not? I saw afterwards that there were no sheets.
How long did you remain with her royal highness that night before you left the bedroom? Some minutes, a very little time.
Did you make any observation upon the conduct of her royal highness at that time in the bed-room? I saw she was extremely agitated.
What was your reason for remaining only a few minutes?
Mr. Williams objected to the question.
The counsel were informed that the question might be put.
The question was proposed to the witness.
Because her royal highness sent me away immediately.
Had that been her usual practice? It had not.
What time the next morning did you see her royal highness? I do not remember precisely.
As nearly as you can recollect? Near eleven o'clock, or about eleven o'clock.
Was that later, or about her usual time? It was nearly her usual time.
When did you see Pergami that morning? I did not sec him during the whole of the morning,
When was it that you first saw him that day, and where? At dinner.
Did you take notice of the princess's travelling bed in the morning? I did.
What observation did you make, as to whether it had been slept in or not? I observed that nobody had slept in it.
Did you observe the larger bed, what appearance that had? I did.
What observation did you make upon the large bed? I observed it had been occupied.
Can you inform their lordships more particularly of the state of it? I cannot.
Was it much or a little deranged or tumbled? Not much.
Do you know where Pergami slept, during the whole time he resided at Naples, from that period? In his room.

1115
Is that the room which you have described? Yes.
Was it near or at a distance from the rooms of the other servants? There was only Mr. Hieronimus who slept on the same side of the house.
Where did Mr. Hieronimus sleep? In a room which had a door in a corridor, which was before entering the room of her royal highness; the two doors were in the same passage.
Did you, whilst you resided at Naples, ever see Pergami in the bed-room of her royal highness, or in her dressing-room? I have seen him in the bed-room very often.
Who was it that at Naples assisted her royal highness in making her toilette? I.
Did you ever see any other person present at the time when her royal highness was making her toilette at Naples? Mr. William Austin, and Mr. Pergami.
Was Pergami at that time courier? He was a courier.
How old was Mr. William Austin? Twelve or thirteen years about.
You have said that you have seen Pergami present in the dressing-room, when the princess was making her toilette; was that once or more than once, or how? Several times.
In what state of her royal highness's dress, when she was little dressed or much dressed, or how? Sometimes she was dressed, sometimes she was not.
Did he go in only for a moment, and come out again, or did he remain for any time? He went in and out.
Do you remember ever seeing Pergami at night in the passage of which you have made mention? I do.
Where was her royal highness at that time? In her bed-room.
Was she dressed or undressed, or in what state? She was undressed.
Where were you standing? I was near to the door of her royal highness.
Where did you see Pergami? I saw Pergami come out of his room, and come into the passage.
In what direction, towards the princess's room, or how? He was going towards the bed-room of her royal highness.
What was the state of Pergami's dress at the time you saw him in the passage going towards the bed-room of her royal highness? He was not dressed.
When you say he was not dressed, what do you mean; what had he on? He was not dressed at all.
Do you remember what he had on his feet? Slippers.
Do you remember whether he had any stockings on I saw no stockings.
Had he on any thing more than his shirt? Nothing else.
You have said that the princess at that time was undressed; had she got into bed or not? She was not in bed.
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When you saw Pergami coming along the passage in the direction of her royal highness's room, in the manner you have described, what did you do? I escaped by the little door which was near me out of the apartment of the princess.
You have staled what was the condition of the small travelling bed on the second night after the princess's arrival at Naples; what was the state of that bed on the subsequent nights during her residence at Naples? I made no observation on it afterwards.
State what was the appearance on the second night of the great bed, whether it had the appearance of one person having slept in it or more? More than one person.
How was that bed on the subsequent nights; had it the appearance of one person having slept in it, or more than one person? I have always seen the same thing.
At Naples? Yes, at Naples.
Was it your business, during a part of the time of the residence at Naples, to make the princess's bed? Towards the latter end of the time we remained at Naples it was I who made the bed.
Did you make the small travelling bed? I did.
Did you make it up every day? I do not remember at Naples.
Do you mean to say you do not remember during any part of the lime at Naples? Not during the whole time.
Do you remember a masked ball that was given to Murat by her royal highness? I remember it.
Where was the place where it was given? At a house on the sea shore.
Where did her royal highness dress herself for that ball? In a small room on the second floor.
In the house where the ball was? In the same house.
In what character did she first appear? In the character of a countrywoman in the neighbourhood of Naples.
Whose business was it to assist her royal highness in putting on her dress for the ball? Mine.
Did you go to that house? I did.
Did Pergami also go? Yes, he went with me in the same carriage.
When the princess dressed herself in the dress you have described of a Neapolitan peasant, who assisted her in dressing? I.
How long did her royal highness remain at the ball in the character of a Neapolitan peasant? About an hour.
Did she afterwards return for the purpose of changing her dress? Yes.
What dress did she assume the second time, what character? The Genius of History.,
Did she change her dress entirely for that purpose? Yes.
Did you assist her in changing her dress? I did not.

1117
Who assisted her in changing her dress? Pergami went into her dressing room; there were two rooms an anti-room and a dressing-room.
Where did you stay yourself? In the anti-room.
Did you see Pergami go into the dressing-room? I saw him enter.
How long did the princess remain in the dressing-room before she came out with her dress entirely changed? I do not remember precisely.
Can you tell about how long? About three quarters of an hour.
When she came out, did she come out alone, or did any person come with her? Pergami came out first, and her royal highness came out after.
How long before her royal highness came out did Pergami come out? A very little time.
When you say a very little time, was it one, two, three, or four, or five minutes, or what? Two or three minutes.
Did her royal highness go to the ball in this character you have described? She went down to go to the ball in the same character.
How long did she remain absent? About three quarters of an hour, thereabouts.
At the end of that time, did she come back again into the anti-room? She returned into the anti-room.
Describe the manner in which her royal highness was dressed in this character of the Genius of History? She had her arms bare, and her breasts bare, and the drapery in the same way as people represent the Muses, or the Genius of History.
When you describe the arms bare, up to what part do you mean; the entire arm, or how? I did not observe whether they were completely hare.
You have mentioned, that after the princess had gone to the ball the second time, she returned to the anti-room; did she go into her dressing-room again, for the purpose of changing her dress? She did.
Did you go into the dressing-room, for the purpose of assisting her, or who else? I did.
In what character was she dressed this third time? Something like a Turkish peasant; something that had the appearance of it.
Where was Pergami during the time the princess was arranging her dress as aTurkish peasant? In the anti-room.
What was he doing there? Ingoing out of the room, I saw him dressed like a Turk.
Did her royal highness go to the ball again, in this character of a Turkish peasant? I saw her go down stairs to go to the ball.
Did she go alone, or did Pergami go with her? Pergami went with her.
Did you see them go down stairs together? I did.
In what way did they go; were they sepa-
1118
rate, or how? The princess was under the arm of Pergami.
Was Pergami still courier? He was.
Did Pergami return from the ball before the princess, or how? He returned almost immediately.
Upon his return, did her royal highness come back? I do not remember.
How soon after did you see her royal highness? I saw her at the moment we were going to our house.
Do you recollect whether or not you saw her royal highness soon after Pergami returned from the ball in the manner you have described? I do not remember.
Was there any garden belonging to this house where the princess lived at Naples? Yes, there was a garden.
Was there any terrace in that garden? There was a small terrace.
Did you ever see the princess walking upon that terrace? I have seen her once.
Alone, or with any body? With M. Pergami.
Can you describe how they were walking, whether they were together or separate? The princess was under the arm of M. Pergami.
Do you recollect where the princess was in the habit of breakfasting at Naples? In the small cabinet with a fire-place.
By that do you mean the cabinet you have described contiguous to the bed-room of Pergami? I do.
Did she breakfast there alone, or did any person breakfast with her? I do not know.
Were you ever in the room when her royal highness was at breakfast in that cabinet? I do not remember.
Do you remember Pergami meeting with some accident while he was at Naples? I do.
Upon that occasion was there any bed or sofa put into the cabinet? I do not know whether it was put for that occasion; but I saw Pergami sitting on a sofa in the same cabinet.
Do you know the theatre St. Carlos at Naples? I do.
Did you ever go to that theatre with her royal highness? Yes, once.
Who went with her royal highness besides you? M. Pergami.
In what carriage did they go? A hired carriage.
Did Pergami go in the carriage with her royal highness? He did.
Where did her royal highness get into this carriage? We went through the terrace and the garden by a small door which led into a small street which was by the side of the garden.
What kind of night was it, do you happen to recollect? Gloomy, very gloomy, and it rained.
When you first arrived at the theatre, into what part of the theatre did you go? We went up stairs into the saloon where they walk.

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In what way was her royal highness dressed? Her royal highness was dressed in a red cloak; a very large cloak.
In what way was Pergami dressed? As far as I can remember, he was dressed in a red domino.
What had he on his head? A large hat.
Of what description? Large.
When you got into the saloon, what took place? Nothing happened to us.
Did you afterwards go into any other part of the house? We descended into the pit.
When you got into the pit, what happened? Many ugly masks surrounded us, and began to make a great noise and hissed us.
Describe all which took place? Those masks surrounded us, and we had great difficulty to withdraw, at last we went into a small room.
Was there any thing particular in the dress which her royal highness wore? Her dress was very ugly, monstrous.
How long did her royal highness remain in the whole at Naples, as well as you recollect? About three or four months.
During that time, did Pergami continue to wait at table as usual, or how? Yes, he did.
Did you make any other observations, except as you have stated, upon the conduct of her royal highness and Pergami towards each other, when they were together at Naples? Only that they were very familiar, one towards the other.
How early did that familiarity commence, at what period? From the moment we reached Naples.
Were the servants in general in the habit of going into the bed-room of her royal highness without knocking? No, unless they were sent for by her royal highness.
Did you observe, in this respect, how Pergami conducted himself; did he go in without knocking, when he was not sent for? He never knocked.
Did any part of the English suite of her royal highness quit her whilst she was at Naples? Not during our stay; but when we left Naples, some remained at Naples.
Where did her royal highness go to from Naples? To Rome.
Which of the four gentlemen whose names you have before mentioned accompanied her royal highness to Rome; did any of them? Dr. Holland.
Did the lady you have mentioned accompany her royal highness to Rome? She remained at Naples.
What lady was that? Lady Elizabeth Forbes.
Had her royal highness then any English lady in her suite when she arrived at Rome? She had lady Charlotte Lindsay.
When did lady Charlotte Lindsay join? As far as I recollect, towards the end of the time we were at Naples.
From Rome did her royal highness go to Civita Vecchia, and afterwards to Genoa? Yes.
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Do you remember the house in which her royal highness resided whilst she was at Genoa? I do.
Was there any other English gentleman, except Dr. Holland, in the suite of her royal highness at Genoa? Mr. Hownam joined at Genoa.
With the exception of Dr. Holland and Mr. Hownam, was there at that time any other English gentleman in her suite? No; lord Glenbervie came every day to dine but I do not know that he was in the suite.
Did lady Charlotte Lindsay go to Genoa? She did not.
Where did she leave? At Leghorn.
Do you recollect the situation of the bedroom of the princess and of Pergami at Genoa? I do.
Were those rooms near or distant from each other? They were very near one to another.
Do you recollect what separated them? A single room.
For what purpose was that room used? There was the luggage of her royal highness, and her royal highness dressed there also.
As far as you recollect, was there any communication between that room and Pergami's There was.
Did they continue to sleep in those rooms you have described during the whole time that her royal highness resided at Genoa? They did.
Did you observe where her royal highness breakfasted at Genoa? I did.
Where was it? In a small cabinet at the end of the grand saloon.
Do you know whether she breakfasted there alone or not? I have seen twice Mr. Pergami breakfast with her.
Was Pergami at that time courier? He was.
Do you know who waited at breakfast? Louis Pergami and Theodore Majoochi.
What relation is Louis Pergami to Bartholomew Pergami? Brother to Mr. Pergami.
Do you remember any garden or shrubbery belonging to that house at Genoa, where her royal highness resided? I do.
Have you ever seen her royal highness walking in that shrubbery? Very often.
Did you ever see Pergami in the shrubbery? I have.
Was her royal highness, when walking in the shrubbery, always alone, or had she any person with her? Pergami was always with her.
How were they walking, in what way, separate or together? Her royal highness was upon an ass, but at other times they walked together.
When you say they walked together, describe in what manner they walked together? I have not observed.
Had you any thing to do in making her royal highness's bed during any part of the time of the residence at Genoa? Till the time that my sister arrived.

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You were just asked whether you had seen the princess and Pergami walking together in the shrubbery; you said, many times; were they at those times alone, or were other persons with them? Sometimes me, sometimes Theodore Majoochi, and sometimes William Austin, and sometimes, we were all together.
At Genoa, where was the bed-room occupied by you? By the side of that of her royal highness.
Was the door between the room occupied by you and the bed-room of her royal highness open at night, or how? The princess always locked it every night when I went away.
You were asked whether the door between your bed-room and that of the princess was left open at night, or how; you said it was shut; what do you mean by shut, shut with the key, or only shut? Her royal highness turned the key inside.
Was the bed-room of Pergami situate on the opposite side? It was.
In the morning, who let you into the princess's room? The princess herself called me from my room.
Did you observe the bed of the princess, whether it had been slept in or not? Most often it had not been slept in.
What do you mean by "plus souvent?" Ordinarily, commonly.
You have stated that after you were in your, bed-room the princess locked the door on the other side; after this, did you hear any noise of any door opening, or any other thing, in the princess's room?
The witness was directed to withdraw.
The Duke of Hamiltonsaid, he interposed with great reluctance, because he thought the interpreter not quite competent to the task he had undertaken; he should be wanting to himself and to his country in a case of so much importance if he did not say, that the mode of interpretation as it had been conducted since this witness was called had not been satisfactory to him.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that the marquis di Spineto had shown himself an excellent Italian, but he did not seem quite so perfect in the French language. He was not aware that any material mistake had been made by him, but the interpreter had certainly appeared embarrassed sometimes, and it might be better if a gentleman could be procured more conversant with French.
The Solicitor-Generalsaid, that from the inquiries they had made, they had reason to think the marquis perfectly competent to discharge the duty he had undertaken. He and the interpreter on the other side had only differed regarding a single expression.
The Earl of Harrowbyadmitted, that the interpreter did not seem sufficiently acquainted with the idiom of the French language, although he was not aware that he had made
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any mistake. Of his general intelligence and competence, as far as his own language was concerned, there could be no doubt. It was necessary, however, that a person should be provided, well versed in the respective idioms to the French and English languages.
Earl Greyagreed, that no unfaithful translation had been given by the interpreter, and that his task was an arduous one, recollecting the liability of confusing three languages, two of them not his own. He had performed his duty in his native tongue in the most satisfactory manner.
Mr. Broughamsaid, that he and his friends had no complaint to make against any part of the interpretation hitherto. The French of the marquis di Spineto was certainly not so good as his Italian, but at least for this day he had no objection to its being continued, and to-morrow another interpreter could be procured.
The witness was again called in, and the question was proposed through the marchese di Spineto.
I have sometimes heard the noise of a door opening towards the side of the princess, but I do not know whether it was the door of her room.
Was there any other door, that you recollect, in that direction, except the door of the princess's room, or the door of Pergami's room? There was a third door into the dressing-room of her royal highness.
Was that the room which you have described as being the room between the bedroom of her royal highness and Pergami's room? In the room which was between the two rooms, there was a thrid door, which was in the room where her royal highness breakfasted.
After you had heard this door open, did you hear any noise in the princess's room during the remainder of the night, or was all quiet there? All was quiet.
Was it your business, at the period of which you are speaking, to make the bed of her royal highness? It was.
Describe what you were in the habit of doing to the bed? I arranged the pillows, and I spread the clothes.
Did you unmake the bed entirely? Very seldom.
Why did you not? Because there was no need for it; it was made.
Was it in that state in the morning always, when you went for the first time into her royal highness's bed-room? Almost every morning.
How long did her royal highness continue at Genoa? Nearly two months.
During the time that her royal highness resided at Genoa, did any of the relations of Pergami enter her service? Louis Pergami, brother to Mr. Pergami.
Do you remember Faustina? I do.
Did she enter into the service there? She was travelling and arrived at Genoa, but I do

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not know whether she entered the service of her royal highness.
Did she live in the house of her royal highness? She came expressly from Milan to. her royal highness.
Did she reside with her royal highness during the remainder of the time that her royal highness continued at Genoa? She did.
Do you know Pergami'smother? I do. How did they call her? They called her Nonna, which signifies grandmother, the mother of Mr. Pergami.
Did she continue to live with her royal highness during the remainder of the time she continued at Genoa? Yes, as well as Faustina.
Was there a little child, the daughter of Pergami? Yes.
What was her name, and how old was she? She was called Victorine, and was about two or three years old.
Did her royal highness, whilst she was at Genoa, go to look at any house in the country? She did.
Did she say for what purpose she went to look at that house? Because she wished to live there, she had a desire to take it.
Did she say any thing about the English? She said, that it was distant from the town, where there were many English.
Do you know how she came to say, that it was distant from the town, where there were many English?
Mr. Williams, of counsel on behalf of the Queen, objected to the question.
Mr. Solicitor General.—Did her royal highness say any thing more upon that subject? Her royal highness only said, that she wished to take that, because it was far from Genoa and the English.
Where did her royal highness go to from Genoa? She went to Milan.
Did she go to a house in the Place Boromeo? Not immediately.
How soon after her arrival at Milan did she go to that house? Two or three days.
Had any English lady joined her royal highness at Genoa? Lady Charlotte Campbell.
With her daughters? Her daughters came also, but they were in a private house.
Did lady Charlotte Campbell go to Milan with her royal highness; did she accompany her on the road to Milan? She did not, not on the same day, but she came afterwards.
Who went in the carriage from Genoa to Milan with her royal highness? William Austin and I.
Did you see Pergami on the road? I did.
Did you see her royal highness say any tiling, or do any thing, or give any thing to Pergami on the road? Her royal highness gave often something to eat to Pergami, and asked him if he wanted any thing.
Do you mean that that was at the times
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when they stopped at the inns, or when they were travelling on the road? On the road, because we ate in the carriage.
In what character was Pergami serving upon that journey? He was on horseback, dressed as a courier.
Do you recollect the situation of the bedrooms of Pergami and the princess in the Place Boromeo at Milan? I do.
Were they near to or distant from each other? They were near.
How long did lady Charlotte Campbell continue at Milan with her royal highness? I believe nearly a month, as far as I can recollect. When lady Charlotte Campbell went away and left her royal highness, was there any English lady remaining in her suite? No.
Did any other lady come into the situation of lady of honour? Yes.
How soon after lady Charlotte Campbell had gone away? A few days after. Who was that person? The countess Oldi. Before she came into the service of her royal highness, had you any conversation with her royal highness upon the subject, or did her royal highness say any thing to you upon the subject? She told me that countess Oldi wished to come; that the countess Oldi wished to come into her service as a dame d'honneur; that her royal highness wished to take the countess Oldi into her service.
At the time you had this conversation with her royal highness, did her royal highness tell you who the countess Oldi was? She told me only that she was a noble lady.
Do you know what relation the countess Oldi was to Pergami? She was the sister of Mr. Pergami.
How soon did you know that the countess Oldi was a sister to Pergami? Two months after.
Two months after what? Two months after her arrival.
Did her royal highness give any other description of the countess Oldi, except that you have mentioned, that she was a noble lady? She only said that people said that she was pretty or handsome.
After this conversation, did you see madam Oldi when she came into the service? I did. Do you know whether she could speak French? Not at all.
Could her royal highness speak Italian? Very little.
Did you make any observation upon the language of the countess Oldi, so as to ascertain whether she was a woman of education? I only observed, that she spoke very vulgar Italian.
Did you ever see any of her writing in Italian?
Mr. Williams objected to the question.
Did you make any observation upon the manners of the countess Oldi; whether they were the manners, in your judgment, of a gentlewoman or not?

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The interpreter stated, that he was under a difficulty in interpreting that question; as there was not such a word as "gentlewoman" in the French language.
Did you make any observation upon the manners of the countess Oldi? No, I did not.
Do you remember a gentleman of the name of William Burrell being with her royal highness at Milan? I do.
How long did Mr. William Burrell remain with her royal highness? Not a very long time; I do not remember precisely.
Can you state about the time? About a month, more or less.
After Mr. William Burrell went away, did any other English gentleman come into the service of her royal highness? No.
At what place did Dr. Holland quit her royal highness? At Venice.
Was that during the time that her royal highness was residing at Milan? It was.
Did any other English person except Mr. Hownam remain in her royal highness's service after that time? No.
Where did her royal highness go to from her house in the Place Boromco? To Como.
To Villa Viliani? Yes.
Was there any gallery belonging to the house in the Place Boromeo? Yes, round the house, inside.
Do you remember being in that gallery at any time in the morning, and seeing Pergami? I have not seen Pergami on the gallery.
Where did you see him? At his window.
What was he doing? He was opening his window to call his servant.
What robe or dress had he on at that time? He had a gown of blue silk that the princess put on generally in the morning.
Had you seen the princess wear this before that time? Often.
How near to that time, some days before or the day before, or how? Some days before.
After Mr. Burrell left the house other royal highness, did any alteration take place, was there any change in what was going on in the house? There was more freedom in the house, more liberty.
Can you state in particular what you allude to, what you observed? Her royal highness and the servants played in the saloon every evening.
Can you tell at what game? Different games, different plays, different frolics, blind-man's-buff.
Did the princess play? She played sometimes.
To the best of your recollection, did this take place before Mr. Burrell left? After Mr. Burrell left.
Did you make any observation upon the conduct of her royal highness with respect to Pergami during the residence at Milan and aft the Villa Villani? No, only that they were very Free towards one another.
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When was it that the princess went to the Villa d'Este? At the beginning of September.
The Counsel were directed to withdraw.
Ordered, that the farther consideration and second reading of the said bill be adjourned to to-morrow.