Preamble

HL Deb 22 August 1820 vol 2 cc837-69

The order of the day being read for the further consideration and second reading of the Bill, intituled "An Act," &c.; and for counsel to be heard for and against the same; the counsel were accordingly called in.

Then Teodoro Majoochi was again called in, and further examined by Mr.Solicitor General through the interpretation of the marchese di Spineto.

You were mentioning yesterday, that you went with the Queen on the journey to Bavaria into Germany, did you go to Carlsruhe? I did.

Did you go also to Nuremburg, Vienna, and Treiste? I did.

Without asking you particularly as to the situation of the bed-rooms of Pergami and the princess, at each of the places at which they slept during that journey; to the best of your recollection were those rooms generally contiguous to each other, or having a direct communication with each other, or were they at a distance?

The Interpreter stated, the phrase used by the witness in his answer, may have a double meaning,—more near than far—or, more generally near than far.

Mr. Solicitor General.

—Explain what you mean by the expressions you have just made use of whether they were usually near or usually at a distance? Nearer than far, more near than far.

Did they usually communicate with each other? Yes, they did.

Were they generally separated from the rooms occupied by the rest of the suite? They were.

Who generally selected the apartments that is, the bed-room of the princess and, of Pergami? They both made the distribution of the chambers; her royal highness and Pergami.

Did Pergami travel on that journey in the same carriage with the princess? In the journey to Bavaria, and to Genoa.

When you say that Pergami travelled in the same carriage with the princess, in the journey to Bavaria, do you mean also in the journey through Germany? I meant so.

Was it your business to prepare the carriages, and the things that were put into them? It was my duty,

Do you know in what particular part of the carriage Pergami usually sat during the journey? I do not remember.

Do you remember at any time in examining the carriage finding any bottle in it? I found one bottle.

Was that usually in the carriage on the journey, when the princess and Pergami travelled together? It was.

Will you explain the construction of the bottle, as far as relates to the opening, or mouth of it, was it large or small? About three or four inches in diameter.

Do you know from what you found from time to time in that bottle, for what purpose it was used in the carriage? It was for Pergami making water.

Do you remember being at the convent of Benedictines at St. Alessio? I do remember it.

Do you remember seeing the princess at breakfast there? I do remember it.

Did the princess breakfast alone, or did Pergami breakfast with her? She breakfasted with Pergami.

Do you remember upon that occasion anything being done by Pergami to the princess? I do not remember.

Will you mention at what place it was you quitted the service of the princess? At Pesaro.

In the whole, how long had you been in the service, as near as you can recollect? Nearly three years.

After you left the service of the princess at Pesaro, where did you go? To Milan

Into whose service did you afterwards enter? The marchese Erba Odcscalchi.

How long did you remain in Italy after you left the service of the princess at Pesaro? I do not remember.

As nearly as you can tell, stale how long you remained in. Italy after you left the princess? Four or five months; precisely I do not remember.

Do you remember at any time going with the princess to Pavia? I do.

At what inn did you lodge at that place? I do not remember the name of the inn; but it is an inn on the right hand of entering Pavia.

Do you remember, at any time when the princess was at Naples Pergami being out on horseback, and the princess asking for him one evening? I remember it too well.

The interpreter was asked;—does the Italian word used by the witness mean very well, as well as too well? It means very well. I have translated it too well, because it was observed by the learned attorney general of her majesty yesterday, that it meant "too"; I should, upon my oath, translate it very well.

Mr. Brougham

stated that he had been misunderstood.

Mr. Solicitor General.

During the absence of Pergami on horseback, in the manner you have described, did the princess ask for him? She did.

Upon the return of Pergami after that ride, did you communicate to Pergami that the princess Wanted him? I did.

Was the princess at that time above stairs in her bed-room? I do not know, because I was down below in the court.

In consequence of your having communicated to Pergami that the princess wanted him, did Pergami go up stairs to the bedroom?

Mr. Brougham

submitted whether this question could be put as against Pergami, without evidence of the conduct of the Queen to bring them together.

The counsel were informed, that the question appeared to the House to be a leading question, and that it should be put thus; "To what place did Pergami go upon the communication being made to him?"

Mr. Solicitor General.

After it was communicated by you to Pergami that the princess wanted him, where did Pergami go to?

While the witness was giving the answer, before it was interpreted, Mr. Brougham interposed, stating that it was irregular, as relating a conversation which had passed between the witness and Pergami.

The counsel were informed, that the question might he put.

Mr. Solicitor General.

After you had communicated to Pergami that the princess had asked for him during his absence, what did he do, where did he go to? Into his own room.

After he had entered into his own room, what did he do as to the door? He shut up his door.

When you say he shut the door, what do you mean, that he merely closed it, or did he do any thing with the lock? He locked the door.

Do you remember how long Pergami remained there? Three quarters of an hour, or an hour.

Did you see the princess below stairs in the rooms during that period? I did not.

In the former part of your examination, being asked with respect to the position of the bed-room at the Villa d'Este, you said, that some change had taken place; did that change take place during the time they were absent in Greece? It did.

Do you know what was the relative situation of the apartments of the princess and Pergami at the Villa d'Este after her return from Greece, and after that change had taken. place? I remember it.

Were those apartments near to each other, and was there a direct communication between them? Yes.

Were the apartments of the rest of the household at a distance? They were further.

Do you remember whether there was any door which being closed shut all communication from the rest of the House, from those apartments occupied by the princess and Pergami? Yes, when the door was locked, then nobody else could enter.

Do you recollect whether, for the purpose of forming this communication, any alteration had been made in any wall of any of those apartments? I do not remember.

Was there a theatre at the Villa d'Este? There was.

Did the princess act upon that theatre? She did.

Did she act with Pergami at that theatre? I have seen Pergami and the princess, but I have not remained during the whole performance of the comedy.

Upon your first arrival at the Villa d'Este, and your first residence there, was the princess usually visited by persons of distinction of that part of Italy? I do not remember.

Do you remember a person of the name of Mahomet, that was in the service of the princess? I do remember him.

What countryman was he? It was reported of Jaffa.

Did he come on board the vessel at Jaffa? Yes.

Did he remain with the princess at the Villa d'Este, during the whole time that the princess resided there? Yes.

Can you tell of any circumstances in the conduct of Mahomet; any exhibitions which he was in the habit of making; observing always not to mention them unless the princess was present?

Mr. Brougham

submitted, that the princess and Mahomet should be first brought together, and then a question asked, What passed while they were together? in order to prevent the witness misconceiving the question, and forgetting the reservation.

The Solicitor-general stated, that he would endeavour to put the question so as to avoid all misconception.

Do you remember, on any occasion when the princess was present, Mahomet making any exhibition?

Interpreter. "Giuoco", the word the witness uses, signifies play, or motions, or game, or tricks.

Mr. Solicitor General.

Was the trick, or whatever you allude to, one that he was in the habit of making?

Mr. Brougham

submitted, that this question ought to be put with a guard; only those parts of his habit which were brought home to the knowledge of her majesty being receivable in evidence.

Mr. Solicitor General.

Describe what this Giuoco was, to which you allude, before the princess.

[The witness snapped his fingers and bent his body, bending out his knees.]

Interpreter. If I am obliged to give the translation of that, it is a species of a dance, which is commonly performed in the east.

Mr. Solicitor General.

Was any thing done by Mahomet, upon that occasion, with any part of his dress? He made use of the linen of his large pantaloons.

Describe what use he made of the linen of his large pantaloons, and what he did with it? He made the pantaloons go backwards and forwards [moving his person backwards and forwards.]

Before he began, or during the time of this motion, did he make any arrangement or any alteration as to his pantaloons; did he do any thing with the linen of his pantaloons or trowsers? This I do not know.

Describe this Giuoco from beginning to end; every thing that was done, as nearly as you can recollect; whether with his pantaloons, his turban, or any other part of his dress? [The witness made a motion.]

Interpreter. I cannot translate that, because it is a motion.

Mr. Solicitor General.

Describe with accuracy what was done with the pantaloons or trowsers; how were the trowsers prepared? He made them strike forward; go backwards and forwards.

Did he do any thing to the trowsers with his hands, either at or during the time when these motions were going on? I have not seen it.

Was the position of his trowsers the same as usual? Always in the same state.

Do you remember upon more than one occasion this Giuoco being practised in the presence of the princess? More than once.

Was Pergami present also? He was.

The Villa d'Este was upon the banks of the lake of Como; did you ever see the princess upon the lake of Como with Pergami? Many times.

Alone, or with other people? Alone.

You have said that you have seen her many times upon the lake of Como, and you have also said that you have seen them alone on the lake of Como; have you seen them often on the lake of Como, or seldom? Many times.

Cross-examined by Mr. Brougham.

You have told us that you left general Pino's service; was not it on account of killing a horse, or something of that kind? No.

You never killed a horse at all? Never, never, oh never.

You never told any one that you had? Never, never.

What wages had you in general Pino's service? Fifty pence.

Interpreter. That is twenty-five pence of this country.

Per day? Yes.

Did you not find that enough, and leave the service on that account? I left the service at Mantua; during the blockade of Mantua I left the service of general Pino.

At the second table of the Queen's house at Naples, the table of the gentlemen, did not sir William Cell's servant sit also? I do not remember.

Do you remember another English servant of Mr. Craven, another of the gentlemen of her royal highness's suite, dining at that table? I do not remember that.

Had either of these two English gentlemen English servants at all in her royal highness's family? They had.

English servants? Yes; I believe they were English, because they always spoke English.

Were they livery servants, or servants out of livery? During every day they did not wear livery, but during a grand dinner, I saw them come home with livery uniforms.

Interpreter. Uniform is the translation of the word he used, but livery is his meaning.

Was it the duty of the ordinary livery servants of the household to wait upon her royal highness? At table, yes.

Was it their duty to wait upon her royal highness also at breakfast in the morning? No.

Was it not the duty of the upper servants, including the couriers, so to wait upon her royal highness? Yes, it was.

Do you know Hieronimus? Very well.

Do you know Camera also? Yes.

Were they couriers? They were couriers, because they wore the livery of couriers and rode.

In the princess's house at Naples, where did William Austin sleep? I do not remember.

Will you swear that he did not sleep in the next room to her royal highness? This I cannot remember.

What was the room next the room in which her royal highness slept? I have seen no other.

Where did Dr. Holland, her royal highness's physician sleep? I do not remember.

Will you swear there was no passage by which her royal highness could enter Pergami's room, when he was confined with his illness, except going through the room where you slept? I have seen that passage; other passages I have not seen.

Will you swear there was no other passage? There was a great saloon, after which came the room of her royal highness, after which there was a little corridor, and so you passed into the cabinet; I have seen no other passage.

Will you swear there was no other passage? I cannot swear; I have seen no other than this, and I cannot say that there was any other but this.

Will you swear that there was no other way by which any person going into Pergami's room could go, except by passing through the cabinet? I cannot swear that there is another; I have seen but that; there might have been, but I have not seen any, and I cannot assert but that alone.

Will you swear that if a person wish to go from the princess's room to Pergami's room, he or she could not go any other way than through the cabinet in which you slept? There was another passage to go into the room of Pergami.

Without passing through the cabinet where you slept? Yes.

Where did Hieronimus sleep in this house? I do not remember.

Where did Camera sleep? Camera was not then in the service at Naples.

Where did sir W. Gell's servants sleep? I do not remember.

And you do not remember where Mr. Craven's servants slept neither, I take for granted? I do not remember.

Where did Demont sleep; the maid? I do not know.

Where did the other maids sleep? I do not know where the other members of the family slept.

Was it not a very severe accident which Pergami met with, from the kick of the horse? It was so severe that he could no longer go on horseback.

Was it not so much more severe than that, that he was confined to his apartment? I cannot say that, because I cannot have any knowledge of the illness.

Had you not so much knowledge of the illness that you were taken for the purpose of attending him in the illness, and made to sleep now for the first time in the cabinet next him? Yes; Pergami told me to put my bed to wait upon him.

You have said that he could not ride; did he go out walking during the accident? I cannot know whether he could walk.

Did you see him walk out every day as usual out of his room and into the streets? I do not remember.

Will you swear that during his illness you ever saw him walk out once? I do not remember to have seen him go out walking.

Did you ever go into his room during the time of his illness? I waited upon him.

In waiting upon him did you frequently go into his room? Often.

Did you find him there walking up and down the room? This I do not remember.

Was he attended by any medical man? I I do not remember.

Did you not see her royal highness the princess of Wales go into the room of Hieronimus to ask after his health when he had had an accident which confined him? I do not remember.

Have you not seen her royal highness go into the room of sir W. Gell also, when he was confined with illness to his room? I do not remember.

Was it not the constant practice of her royal highness to go herself into the chamber of any of her suite who might happen to be ill, in order to see after their health and their treatment during that illness? I do not remember.

You never happened to be ill yourself at Naples? No.

Did her royal highness make any difference whatsoever in the attentions she paid between the upper servants, the gentlemen or ladies of her household, and the lowest of her attendants, during their confinement by sickness?

The Solicitor General

submitted, that Mr. Brougham was assuming, as the bases of his questions, facts which did not appear at present to exist, which he conceived to be irregular, even in cross-examination.

Mr. Brougham was heard in support of the question.

The counsel were informed, that the regular mode of cross-examination, if it was meant to prove that her royal highness went into the room of Hieronimus when he was ill, was, the witness should first be asked whether he knew that Hieronimus was ill, and then the witness might be asked whether her royal highness went into his room.

Mr. Btoughtam.

Were all the parts high and low, of her royal highness's suite, with the exception of Pergami, always in perfect health during the time they were at Naples? I do not remember.

Did Dr. Holland the physician never attend any body at all, during the residence at Naples? There was no other but Pergami during the time that I remember; Pergami was ill of that fall, the others I do not remember.

Do you mean to say that you do not remember any other person being attended by Dr. Holland, during the time that Pergami was ill in consequence of that fall? I do not remember.

What sort of abed did you sleep upon in the little cabinet, while you attended Pergami? A mattrass.

It had no curtains had it? No; it was carried on the shoulders, and laid down.

When her royal highness went from Naples to Rome in March 1815, what English persons were with her? Dr. Holland; as far as I remember, Hieronimus.

Was not lady Charlotte Lindsay there? Was it a small lady; for I do not remember her name.

Was there one English lady with her royal highness or two, at that time? I remember to have seen one English lady; I had seen one, but the other I had not seen; the little thin one I had seen, and remember.

Did one or both of those English ladies go with her royal highness from Naples to Rome? Madame Falconet, the mother, and the two daughters; the mother was said to be the wife of Falconet, the banker of Naples.

Was Mrs. Falconet an English lady? I do not know.

Did she always talk English? She spoke rather Trench, hut I never heard her speak English; I do not know whether she spoke English, but she always spoke French.

Did you ever see these two young ladies, these daughters of Mrs. Falconet's, in the princess's house with their mother at Naples? At Naples I do not remember to have seen them.

Did you see them any where else in the princess's house? I have seen them on the journey; when we began our journey from Naples to Rome.

Then is it not true that Mrs. Falconet did take her daughters to Rome with her? Yes.

About what age were those two girls? I do not remember.

Were they young children or young ladies?

[The witness made an answer, upon which the interpreter stated, that it was apparent the witness did not understand the question.]

Mr. Brougham

desired, that that which he had stated might be translated.

The counsel were informed, that it was the wish of the House, that the witness might not be interrupted, in giving that which he might conceive to be an answer; but might finish any thing he had to state, it not being the intention of the House to impute blame to either interpreter or counsel, in respect of such interpretation as had occurred.

Were they young children or young ladies? Yes; ladies.

Did you see lady Charlotte Lindsay, or any other lady besides madame Falconet, with her royal highness, after she left Naples? I do not remember.

Did you ever see more than one English lady in the household of her royal highness at the same time? I do not know; I do not remember.

Mr. Brougham desired, that the expression might be translated "I do not remember."

The Interpreter stated, that there were different meanings to the expression "non mi ricordo," and submitted, that if he was wrong, the interpreter for her majesty might be the person to correct him, and he requested might correct him in any thing in which he might err.

Then Benetto Cohen, the interpreter on behalf of her Majesty, was asked—How do you translate the Italian words, "non mi ricordo?" "I do not remember." What is the Italian for "I do not know?" Non so.

The interpreter submitted, that he might be at liberty to ask the witness "what he meant by those words when he used them?" which being permitted by their lordships, the question was so put by him to the witness?—That, I do not recollect to have seen that.

Mr. Brougham.

You gave us an account yesterday of having knocked one night at Pergami's door at Genoa so loud that he must have heard you, and that he gave no answer? I did.

What sort of people were they who had come into the house that night, that made you go and knock up the baron—knock up Pergami? It was when that theft was made.

Do you mean to say that robbers had broken in, or threatened to break into the house?— Robbers had gone into the house.

Was not the alarm given that it was part of your friend Ompteda's gang; was not that the alarm in the Queen's house?

The Solicitor General

objected to the question, as assuming there was a person of the name of Ompteda, and secondly, that he was a friend of the witness; and also assuming that there was a gang of which the friend of the witness was a party.

The counsel were informed, that that question appeared to the House irregular, and such as ought not to be put.

Mr. Brougham

stated, that he had put the question in that form to save time, but would put it with more minuteness. Did not somebody that night come and attack a window of the house? Yes, some thieves.

Did not you yourself go to the window on that occasion? I opened the window, and saw a tall person before me; I took a gun and fired upon this person, that fellow; I saw no more than one, and I fired upon those persons; they ran away.

The counsel were directed to withdraw. It appeared that sir William Gell, who was ordered to attend at a witness, was in the House, and had been so during a part of yesterday. The counsel were again called in, and informed that it was the desire of the House, that in future no person shall be examined as a witness, other than the members of the House, without leave of the House, who has been present during the examination of any other witness or witnesses.

Mr. Brougham

stated to their lordships, in excuse for sir W. Gell having been present, that he had excepted those persons who were in official attendance, and that sir W. Gell was in official attendance upon her Majesty, but that he had now withdrawn, and would not in future be present.

Mr. Denman

stated, that lord Llandaff was ordered to attend as a witness for her majesty; that he had applied to the Attorney General for his consent for his lordship to be present; that as that consent might not be sufficient, he now begged to apply to the House for permission for lord Landaff to be present.

The counsel were informed that any Irish peer had a right to be present; and that the resolution was not intended to exclude any Irish peer, or others, who had a right to be present.

The Attorney General

requested to be informed, whether the rule was intended to apply to those who were professionally engaged on either side, or whether it would be necessary to hand in to their lordships, a list of those gentlemen necessarily attendant on each side, so as to come within the rule laid down.

The counsel were informed that it could not be intended to include those professionally engaged, and they were directed to hand in a list of those (counsel, attornies, and their clerks) whose attendance was necessary on cither side.

[The examination of the witness then proceeded.]

Mr. Brougham.

After the robbers had attacked or threatened the house, and you had fired upon them in the way you have described, was not the whole house alarmed by what had taken place? I immediately ran to knock at the door, and then in going down stairs I found that all the people had collected, or were coming down stairs.

Did you see any one of them with a drawn sword in his hand upon that occasion? I cannot remember that.

Was captain Hownam there upon that occasion? I do not remember whether he was there.

Was Hieronimus? It was all the family, but I cannot say individually whether those persons were there.

Did yon see Pergami there? Yes, Pergami was there, I saw him.

How long after the first alarm was it that you went to knock at Pergami's door? I went to knock at the door.

How long after the first alarm was it that you went to knock at Pergami's door? Three minutes.

Three minutes after you had fired the piece? Yes.

After knocking at Pergami's door, and not finding him there, did you open the door to see whether he was in the room, or not? No, I did not open the door, but Pergami came out about a quarter of an hour after; a great noise was made, and then he came out.

Where were you at the time that Pergami did what you are pleased to call, come out?

Interpreter. I cannot put the question in that way, what you please to call, come out; I can put it, when he came out.

Mr. Brougham.

Where were you when Pergami did what you call, come out? I knocked at the door, received no answer, and went down stairs, and then all the family was coming out; and then I saw Pergami come out in about a quarter of an hour afterwards.

Then first you fired upon the robbers, then, three minutes afterwards, knocked violently at Pergami's room, then you went away, and a quarter of an hour after that the house were pleased to take the alarm, and all to come out?

Mr. Solicitor General

objected to this question, as an incorrect statement of the answer.

Mr. Brougham.

How soon after you fired the piece did you see Pergami, and the rest of the household come out? I fired, ran to the room of Pergami, knocked, and received no answer; went back again to the place where I had fired, the family collected, and I called and said, robbers, robbers, we have robbers in the house; I remained there, and then the people retired.

How long were you knocking at Pergami's door? I remained a long time, and I knocked very loud, louder and louder.

Did you go below from Pergami's door?—I went down to the same room where the robbers had been.

Where did you first see Pergami after that time? In the same room to which I referred, and where the thieves had been.

You have said, that the princess went almost immediately from the Grand Britannia at Venice, to a private house in the neighbourhood? Yes.

What was the room next to the Queen's room in that house? There was a great saloon, and in the corner there was a room which led into the bed-room of her royal highness.

Was there another room on any other of the four sides of the princess's room? There was on two sides a window, and on the third side there were other rooms.

Was there not a room used for a sitting-room on the side you are now speaking of, which opened into the Queen's room? I do not know what use the room was put to.

Where did Hieronimus sleep? I do not remember.

Beyond those rooms which you have described, and of which you say you do not know the use, was there a staircase? I do not know, I have not seen any staircase on that side.

Where did William Austin sleep in this house? I do not remember.

Where did captain Hownam sleep? I do not know.

Was he with the Queen at Venice? He was.

Was William Austin? He was.

Hieronimus? He was.

Camera? No, he was not there.

Was Victorine, Pergami's child there? do not remember.

Did Victorine, the child, always sleep in the room with the princess? Where.

After the time that the child Victorine came to be in the house with her royal highness, did she generally sleep in the same room with the princess? I do not know: Do you know of her sleeping in any other part of the house? I cannot know that.

Did you ever see her sleeping in any other part of either the house or the ships? I do not remember; she slept under the pavillion with her sometimes.

Interpreter. I do find it difficult to make myself understood; the witness is frightened out of his wits; he does not understand the most common words; I cannot make him understand the question.

Mr. Brougham.

Will you swear that you ever in your life, saw Victorine sleep in any other part of of the ship or house, except where the princess was? Sometimes she slept under the pavilion, where was the bed with her royal highness; sometimes she slept down below, in the room of her royal highness, and sometimes she slept with the dame d'honneur.

Whom do you mean by the lady of honor? The countess Oldi.

Who besides yourself, do you know, ever saw Victorine sleeping out of the room where her royal highness slept? That I do not know.

Did you ever yourself see Victorine in a room, and in a bed where her royal highness was not to sleep that night? I have never seen it.

Did Mr. Burrell, an English gentleman, go to Venice with her royal highness at the time you have spoken of? I do not remember.

Do you ever remember having seen a gentleman of that name in her royal highness's family, for any length of time? Yes, a short young man.

When and where? At the Villa Villani, when we were there, and also at Milan and the house Boromeo.

Where did he sleep at the Villa Villani? I do not remember.

At the Casa Boromeo? I do not remember.

At Venice? I do not remember there also.

The second time when you went bark to Genoa, was not the arrangement of the rooms the same as usual with respect to the princess and Pergami? The princess did-not stop at Genoa only once; she merely embarked there when she came from Naples the second time, she went immediately on board the ship.

Have you ever seen the Villa d'Este since the time you came back from the long voyage? I have.

Was the position of the rooms the same as it had been before with respect to the Queen and Pergami? They were not in the same situation as before.

Was there not a stair-case or a landing-place of a stair-case on one side of the princess's room on her return? A small corridor.

Was there a sitting-room on the other side of it, not opposite, but on one of the other sides of it? There was a small corridor, on the left of which there was a door that led into the room of the princess, which was only locked; and then going a little further on in the corridor there was on the left hand a small room, and opposite to this small room there was another door which led into the loom where they supped in the evening.

Did not that room communicate on the one side with the princess's room, and on the other side with the room where the maids slept? There was this supping room on the right, there was a door which led into Pergami's room, and on the same right hand of the same room there was a small alcove, where there was the bed of Bartolomeo Pergami.

How many doors were there in the small sitting-room where they supped? I saw two doors open always, but there was a third stopped by a picture.

Where did her royal highness's maids sleep? On the other side, in another apartment.

Where did Mr. Hownam sleep? I do not know.

By what passage did the maids get into her royal highness's bed-room, for the service of the chamber? Through the small corridor.

Into which her royal highness's room opened? They could go this way, through the small corridor.

Upon the journey, when her royal highness used tents for resting in, you have said that her practice was, to travel by night, and to rest during the heat of the day? Yes.

Did her royal highness ride upon that journey? She rode on horseback.

About how many hours was she on horseback, generally speaking, in the course of the night? She mounted her horse in the evening at the sun-set, and travelled all night, till the rising of the sun.

It is not asked as to half an hour, or even an hour, but about how many hours was she on horseback during the night? I do not recollect.

Was she four hours? She mounted on horseback in the evening when the sun-set, and dismounted in the morning when the sun arose; but I had no watch, and I do not know the length of time.

Will you take upon you to swear, that she did not frequently ride in this manner as much as eight hours without stopping? I do not recollect.

Was not her royal highness extremely fatigued when she dismounted in the morning from those rides? It was said, that she was very tired, and she immediately went to rest herself on the Turkish sofa.

Was she very much fatigued during the last hour or two of those rides before dismounting? I cannot recollect that.

Have you not seen, during the last hour or two of those rides, her royal highness obliged to have persons supporting her on horseback, from the excess of her fatigue? I do not recollect.

Was it not her royal highness's practice upon those rides, the instant she dismounted from horseback, to throw herself upon the sofa for repose? After she dismounted from her horse, she threw herself upon the sofa, because she was tired.

Have you not yourself slept or rested yourself between the inner and the outer of those two tents where her royal highness reposed during the day? Yes; I and Carlo.

Was not this the regular place of rest both for you and Carlo at such hours? I slept on one side and Carlino slept on the other, because it made two tents; and in the interstice of those two tents on one side I slept, and on the other side Carlino.

Does Carlino mean Camera? It was said that he was a nephew of Bartolomeo Pergami.

Was he one of the servants? He wore livery, as I did.

What sort of sofas were they that were put under the tent on those occasions; was not one an iron bedstead, and the other a sofa? There was first a Turkish sofa, or rather a sofa placed by the Turks, and then I placed an iron bedstead.

Are you understood rightly that no bed clothes of any sort were put upon the sofa? I do not remember that.

Was not the sofa put down in the same state in which it was carried, like a common sofa in a room? Yes; in the middle of the Pavilion was a pillar or column, and the sofa was placed close to it.

Was it not in every other respect as sofas are, which are placed in rooms? It was a sofa; I have not paid particular attention; I know it was a sofa.

On the iron bedstead did you not place a mattress to make it more soft to lie upon? A small mattress which did belong to the small iron bed.

Was it not a mattress, cased in leather, a leathern mattress? I do not remember.

Used you not to place it; was it not your office to put it there yourself? It was my office, together with Carlino, to place the bed.

Those were the same beds; the sofa and the bed that were used underneath the tent on board the Polacca, were they not? There were two bedsteads, one that was in a trunk, and the other folded up in a bundle; but I do not remember whether it was that in the trunk, or that in the bundle.

Were they not exactly of the same kind? That of iron, which was made in a bundle, was a very little larger; and the other, which was in a trunk, was a very little smaller.

Was not the sofa the same that was used on board the Polacca under the Pavilion? I do not recollect whether it was the same or not.

If it was not the same identical sofa, was it not a sofa so like in every respect that yon might easily take one for the other? I cannot say.

Was it not her royal highness's constant practice upon the voyage to throw herself down for repose in the middle of the day without taking off her clothes? To this I paid no attention; I made no observation.

Will you take upon yourself to swear, that during the whole of that voyage, the princess ever took off one stitch of her clothes? If you speak so, I shall understand you; after her royal highness had dismounted from the horse, she undressed herself to rest herself.

What part of her clothes do you mean to swear that her royal highness took off for that purpose? The upper gown; the upper garments.

Do you mean to say that her royal highness took off her gown, or a sort of surtout or cloak, in which she had been riding? I do not recollect.

Was there not a cloak which her royal highness was accustomed to throw over her the moment she dismounted, for the purpose of resting in it? I do not recollect that.

Did her royal highness put on a mantle when she mounted in order to pursue her journey? I do not remember that.

Were there sheets and blankets upon the sofa under the tent, in which a person taking off their clothes could go to bed, as is usual in Europe? I placed the bed, and then I placed some feather pillows, and then I retired.

You did not put any sheets or blankets, or coverlid and sheets, did you? I do not remember.

Was it not exactly the same used for sleeping under the tent on board the Polacca afterwards, during the sea voyage? I do not remember; I know that there were beds or cushions, but I do not know whether the beds were made whether to get into or not.

Will you swear you ever saw, either on the land journey in Palestine, or on board the ship during the voyage, one stitch of common bed clothes, sheets, blankets, or coverlids upon that bed? This I do not recollect.

Who except yourself and Carlino ever made those beds, either on the land or sea voyage? I do not recollect any other who did it.

Have you not sworn it was you and Carlino whose duty it was to make those beds? Yes; when we arrived under the tent I placed the bed, and then I went out.

You have told us how and by whom the bed was made at night, who removed the beds in the morning on the voyage? I do not remember.

Will you swear that it was not yourself? I do not recollect. In the evening I was ordered to make the bed, and I carried the cushions; then in the morning I was called and took away the cushions; for it was not a matrimonial bed, a large bed, a real bed, but they were merely small cushions which I placed where people could rest.

Did you ever happen to see Billy Austin, William Austin, rest under the tent in the same way on the voyage, or on land? I do not recollect.

Did you ever see Hieronimus rest in the same way in the tent? I do not recollect.

Will you swear that they both of them have not so rested in the tent? I do not recollect.

In the room below the cabin on board the polacre, where did Hieronimus sleep in general? I do not recollect.

Where did Mr. Hownam sleep?—I do not recollect.

Where did William Austin sleep? I do not remember.

Where did the countess Oldi sleep? I do not remember.

Where did you yourself sleep? On a sofa in a room where they dined.

Did not Camera sleep in the same room on another? Camera was not a servant there.

Was Camera on board the ship? he was on board the ship, but he was not a servant.

Where did he sleep? I do not know where he slept.

But you swear that you yourself slept on a sofa in the dining-room? Yes; whenever I felt myself sick or unwell I went down below; but when not, I slept there; generally I slept there.

Where did the maids sleep? I do not know.

Where did captain Flynn sleep? I do not know.

You know there was one English sea officer on board the vessel, as well as captain Hownam? Yes.

The whole of the voyage? Lieutenant Flynn was on board the polacre Caroline, during the whole voyage.

Was he not in her royal higness's suit in her royal highness's land journey, as well as the sea voyage? I do not remember that.

Will you swear that lieutenant Flynn was not on the land journey with her royal highness to Palestine? This I do not recollect.

About what aged man is Lieutenant Flynn? I cannot tell.

Is he a very young man, or a man of about thirty? I cannot recollect.

Is he older or younger apparently than lieutenant Hownam? This I cannot recollect.

Have you ever seen him in her royal highness's suite, except during the long voyage? I do not remember.

Did you ever see him in your life with her Toyal highness at the Villa d'Este, or the Villa Villani, or any of the other palaces her royal highness inhabited? I cannot remember.

Have you the least doubt in your mind, that captain Flynn never was in her royal highness's service regularly when on shore? I do not remember either yes or no; I do not recollect at all of this.

When did you see captain Flynn for the last time? I do not remember.

About what time? On the return from the voyage to Egypt, I remember he was on board about Syracuse, or at Syracuse.

And you do not recollect having ever seen him since? I do not remember to have seen him after that.

Were you ever sea-sick on the voyage home from Jaffa? Whenever I am on board a ship, I am more unwell than well.

His majesty's attorney-general submitted, that this was not a proper translation of the words of the witness, but that the interpretation was always, or almost always.

The counsel were informed, that in case any doubt arose whether the interpretation was correct, it must be explained by the interpretation of the other interpreter, who was sworn; for that there was no person in the House, or at the bar, who had a right to give any interpretation.

Mr. Brougham

to the Marchese.—Give us in Italian, the very words the witness said? He answered "sempre," and in the same breath, he added, "le piu parti," and that as far as I can collect it is, for the most part I was more sick than well.

Then when you were unwell, you went below did you not? Sometimes I threw myself on the cannon, sometimes I threw myself on the sofa, sometimes I was down, and threw myself wherever the sickness surprised me.

Did you not, when you were ill during the voyage, sleep below under the deck? Under the deck.

In the hold? Yes, at the bottom of the ship,

Have you not been frequently, during the voyage, for days together, when you never made your appearance on the deck at all? When I was unwell, sometimes I was a day or two without coming up; when I was unwell I was sometimes a whole day without coming up.

Will you swear you have not, during the voyage, been kept down by illness for more than two whole days together? I was whole days together without coming up.

Do you mean that you were whole days together? For instance, in the morning I fell sick, and I remained below till the next morning.

Will you swear that you have not been more than two days without ever coming up at all? I was ill one day and one night; for instance, this morning I fell ill, and I remained ill till next morning.

Will you take upon yourself now to swear, that you never, during the whole voyage, were more than one day and one night toge-without coming above upon deck?

Interpreter. I cannot translate it, with the utmost submission to your lordships, to make the sense of it so as for the witness to understand. It is impossible for me to translate it literally; if I had a man of talent by my side, I would do it, but I cannot do it with this witness.

Their lordships directed that the question should be put by the other interpreter.

The question was repeated through the interpretation of Mr. Cohen. Yes.

The examination proceeded through the interpretation of Mr. Cohen.

Do you mean that you swear that you never were more than four-and-twenty hours together without going upon deck? Yes.

More than four-and-twenty hours following each other? From one morning to the other.

During the time that you were on board ship, did they not keep watches as is usual upon deck? I do not remember.

Were you the only person upon deck at that part of the ship where the tent was placed, in which her majesty slept during the night? I did not sleep upon deck.

When you saw the lent placed for her majesty to sleep in, and left at night to go below, were you the only person on deck at that time? This I do not remember.

Were there no sailors on board this ship? There were.

Did those sailors never come upon deck? This I do not remember.

Did those excellent sailors always remain below in the hold with you? This I cannot remember, if they slept in the hold during the night-time or went up.

Do you mean to represent that the ship was left to go alone the whole of every night without any sailors being on deck? I cannot know whether the sailors were down in the hold or upon the deck while the vessel was a going during the night.

Did you not see the sailors upon deck during the day? Yes, they were at work in the daytime.

About how many sailors were there on board this ship? I do not know the number.

Were there four? I do not know the number.

Will you swear there were not two-and-twenty? I cannot swear.

About what size was the ship? I cannot give an account of this vessel, because I have no knowledge of ships.

So that whether there were two sailors on board this ship, or two-and-twenty, you will not take upon yourself to swear? No, no, no; I cannot tell.

Was there a captain? Yes, the owner of the ship.

Were there any other officers belonging to the ship? I cannot tell; I do not know.

Who slept in the place where you used to sleep down below in the hold? I know very well that I slept there, but I do not remember who else.

What part of the ship was it regular and customary for the livery servants of her royal highness's establishment to sleep in on board the ship? This I do not know.

The livery servants of the suite? This I do not remember.

Were you not yourself a livery servant? Yes.

Where did the padrone of the vessel sleep? I do not know.

How many masts had the vessel? Three.

Will you swear that it was not a ship of 300 tons? I have no knowledge of ships, and I cannot say.

When her royal highness slept below, had she not a room in the inside, beyond the dining-room? This I do not remember.

When her royal highness was going by sea on her voyage from Sicily to Tunis, where did she sleep? This I cannot remember.

When she was going afterwards from Tunis to Constantinople on board the ship, where did her royal highness sleep? This I do not remember

When she was going from Constantinople to the Holy Land on board the ship, where did she sleep then? I do not remember.

Where did Pergami sleep on those three voyages of which you have just been speaking? This I do not know.

Where did you sleep yourself? I went below.

Do you mean in the hold? In the hold.

Were you ever yourself in the room in the vessel where the princess used to dine? Yes.

How many doors were in that room? This I do not remember.

Do you not know that there were two rooms which entered out of that inside? This I do not remember.

Was not the bath taken always when taken in the dining-room itself? Not in the dining-room, but in the room next to it.

What do you mean by the room next to it? A small room.

What do you mean by the other small room; where was that placed? Another small room that was on one side.

Do you mean, that after you entered from the fore part of the vessel where every body slept, into the dining-room, that within the dining-room there was another small room entering into it? As soon as you enter the dining-room, there was a small room where the princess took the bath.

Their lordships having expressed a doubt whether the answer to the question had been rightly translated, it was translated as above by the marchese di Spineto, which was assented to by both sides, as being the correct translation. The interpretatoin proceeded through the marchese di Spineto.

How often will you swear that her royal highness took the bath during the voyage? I can swear to twice; she might have taken it more, but I remember only two times.

Was it Pergami's office to prepare the bath for her royal highness? This I do not know; but I believe not.

Whose office in her royal highness's household was it? This I do not know.

Was it your office? I was ordered to carry the water into the bath.

Did you carry the water into the bath, or only to the door of the dining-room? I was ordered to make the bath, and I filled the bath with water about one-half; then I called Pergami, he came down and put his hand into the bath, to try the temperature, and then he told me to get ready some more water, and to give it him, in case it should be wanted.

When you were there, and put in the water first to make it half-full, and called Pergami down to see whether it was of the right temperature, was there any-body else in the room but Pergami and yourself? No one else.

Did you not then retire, and leave Pergami to see whether the bath was rightly prepared or heated? After I had called Pergami, and he had thrust his hand into the water to try the temperature, I was told to go and get some more water, hot and cold, that I might give it to him in case it was wanted.

In this dining-room was there not another room opening into it, besides the room where the bath was? I do not recollect.

Will you swear there were not two, one belonging to the princess, and the other belonging to the countess Oldi? This I do not remember, whether there was any other door.

But you will swear that Camera did not sleep there? No.

Maurice Camera? I never saw him sleep there.

Did you ever see Maurice Camera upon the voyage at all? I do not remember whether he slept there.

Was he not on board? He was on board.

Was he not on board, and was he not with her royal highness during the whole of the long voyage? Yes; but I do not remember where he slept.

You will not swear he did not sleep in that very dining-room? No I cannot swear that.

Was he not with her royal highness during the whole of the land journey, as well as during the voyage? He was.

Was he not a page and courier? I remember he was a courier, but I do not know that he was a page.

Camera was no relation of Pergami, was he? This I do not know; I cannot know.

You have told us that another, Carlino, was, because he was said to be a relation of Pergami's; was Camera said to be a relation of Pergami's in the same way that the others were said to be? This I never heard.

What number of maids had her royal highness with her, upon the long voyage? There were mademoiselle Demont, Brunette, and the countess Oldi.

How long is it since you have seen Demont? At Naples.

You have never seen her since you saw her at Naples; where did you see her last? At Pesaro, when I left the service of her royal highness.

You have never seen her since that? Never.

Do you know where she is now? No; I have never seen her since.

Perhaps you do not know whether she is dead or alive? I cannot know it.

Have you never heard of her since you left her at Pesaro? Never.

Have you never heard her talked about since you left Pesaro? No.

Have you never heard her name mentioned since you left Pesaro? I have never heard it.

Have you never heard Sacchini talked of since you left Pesaro? Yes, I have heard his name mentioned.

Have you not seen him too? I have spoken to him once on the piazza of the cathedral of Milan.

Have you never seen him since? I do not remember to have seen him after that, I do not remember to have spoken to Sacchini; it is possible, it may be, that I may have done it, but I do not remember.

You said yesterday you had seen the princess and Pergami at breakfast together? Yes.

Who saw them at breakfast besides Hieronimus and yourself?

The Solicitor-General objected to the question, as assuming that the witness had said that Hieronimus had seen them at breakfast together.

Mr. Brougham.

You saw them yourself? Yes.

Hieronimus was there too, was not he, at the same time? I do not remember.

Was the countess Oldi present? I do not recollect.

Was not Hieronimus present one of the times you saw the princess and Pergami together at breakfast? I do not recollect whether Hieronimus was present.

Who was by at the time that you saw Pergami salute her royal highness, upon going to do some business for himself in Sicily? I had seen nobody else but myself, the princess, and Bartolomeo Pergami.

Who was present besides yourself at the time that Pergami saluted her royal highness on landing, on account of the quarantine at Sicily? There was nobody but myself, the princess, and Pergami; I had seen nobody else.

Was it not on the deck of the vessel, after dinner, that this happened? Under the deck, before going up to the deck.

Was it not after dinner? Yes.

Where had they dined? I do not remember where they had dined, but I know it was after dinner.

Was it not in the room in which they had dined that this took place? It was in the dining room; the princess was there, and there came Pergami to take his leave about his departure.

Have you not represented yourself to have been in the same room at the time? I was present.

When her royal highness slept in the tent on deck, did she burn a light during the night?—She did not burn a light.

Have you ever been at the Villa d'Este since you quitted her royal highness's service? Yes, I have been; after Pesaro, I went to the Villa d'Este.

Did you go to the Villa d'Este straight from Pesaro? I went straight forward from Pesaro to the Villa d'Este.

How long did you remain there? I do not remember the time.

Was it days or weeks?—I think days, but precisely I cannot tell the number of days.

Have you ever been there since that time? I have been there a second time.

How long after that first time was it?—I cannot recollect.

Was it month or weeks? I do not think it was past months.

Did you ever apply to be taken back into the service of her royal highness after you left it? I do not remember.

Did you ever apply to count Vassali to be taken back? I do not recollect.

Did you ever apply to baron Pergami to be taken back? If I well recollect, never.

Did you ever make application to Louis Pergami, or any other of the Pergami's to be taken back? I do not recollect it.

Did you ever apply to Mr. Schiavini to make interest for your being taken back? Once I did.

When was that once? At the hotel of Italy.

About how long after you left Pesaro was that application? I do not remember.

Was it a week after? More than months.

Will you not swear it was half a year? I cannot recollect the number of months, how many there were.

Did you ever write a letter to be taken back?

The Solicitor General objected to the question.

Mr. Brougham.

Did you ever write a letter to Bartolomeo Pergami, or Schiavini, or Vassali, after leaving her royal highness's service? Never: because for my misfortune I know very little to write.

Did you ever make any other person for you write a letter to Vassali, Schiavini, or the Pergami's, after you left her royal highness's service? Never, as far as I recollect.

When you made application to be taken back at the Albergo Italiano, some months after you left the service, were you not refused to be taken back? I do not remember whether it was answered yes or no.

Were you, in point of fact, taken back to the service of her royal highness? No.

Have you ever been taken back since in point of fact? After I left the service of her royal highness, I never again entered into her service.

Was not Schiavini with her royal highness upon the whole of her voyage to the east, the long voyage? He was on board.

Was he not on shore too, during the journey? And he also came on shore during the whole time of the journey.

In the journies by land which her royal highness made, did not madame Oldi, and the child Victorine, travel in the same carriage with her royal highness? I do not remember.

Was Billy Austin, William Austin in the same carriage with her? I do not remember that ever he was.

Whose house did her royal highness occupy when she was at Carlsruhe? This I do not know.

Was it in an inn or a private house? I believe it was an inn.

Was it not an apartment in an inn which the English minister had given up to accommodate her royal highness? This I do not remember.

Were William Austin and madame Oldi, and Victorine, upon that journey, and at Carlsruhe with the princess? I do not remember.

Will you take upon you to swear that they were not at all there with her? They were on the journey.

Were they not on that journey during the whole time? They were.

Did they not go wherever her royal highness went on that occasion? Yes, they followed her.

Was that not a journey which her royal highness undertook to pay a visit to her relation the grand duke of Baden? Yes, I remember we set out on a journey to Baden.

Did the elector wait upon her royal highness at Carlsruhe, and did her royal highness go to the court of Baden? This I do not remember precisely.

Do you mean to say that you do not remember whether or not her royal highness, when she was at Baden, went to court at all? Her royal highness went to court.

Did the grand duke wait upon her royal highness at her hotel? This I cannot assert; I do not know.

Was the English ambassador seen with her royal highness at that place? This I do not know.

De you happen to know the name of the English minister at that place at that time? I do not recollect it.

You have described a change being made in the Villa d'Este during the long voyage, was there not a new wing built to the villa during that time? I do not remember whether a new apartment had been built.

Do you mean to represent to this court that you do not recollect whether a new building was entirely added to the Villa d'Este during the time that you and your mistress were in the East? I do not remember whether they had erected a new building.

But you perfectly recollect the little alteration in one of the doors of the rooms.

Mr. Solicitor General objected to the question, as assuming that the witness recollected a fact which he had stated he did not recollect.

At the time that those sports were performed by Mahomet, was not Dr. Holland present as well as her royal highness the princess of Wales? No, I have not seen him.

Will you swear that Dr. Holland was not then present? No, I have not seen him.

Must you have seen him if he had been there? I have not seen him.

Will you swear that lieutenant Hownam was not present when Mahomet played off those tricks? I have not seen him; that which I have seen I say; what I have not seen, I say, no.

Who else was there besides yourself and the black performer, and her royal highness herself? I have not seen any body else. I have seen the princess, Pergami; and Mahomet with my own eyes,

Whom did they send for Mahomet on that occasion; were you the person sent to bring Mahomet on that occasion to perform? This I do not remember.

Were you so placed that her royal highness saw you at the time as well as Mahomet? I was in such a position, that when Mahomet played his tricks, her royal highness did not see me, but Mahomet saw me, and Pergami saw me.

Was it in a room? No, in a court.

Were there any windows looking into that court? There were all the windows of the apartment.

Where were you placed? I was near the door which leads to the lake.

Were you in the court in which Mahomet was? On the door, that leads to the lake.

Where was her royal highness? At the window of her bed-room, or the cabinet, precisely I do not recolleet.

Where was Mahomet? He was coming out of the door of the stable alone.

Did Mahomet stand in the court to perform those tricks? Near to the window of her royal highness.

Was the back of Mahomet turned to you? I was by his side; Mahomet was looking at her royal highness.

You were at the same side of the court at which her royal highness was looking out of her window? I was on the same side, for Mahomet was on my left; Mahomet was looking at the window of her royal highness, and this was near the door leading to the lake.

You were at the door on the same side of the court on which her royal highness was looking out at the window? No; her royal highness was on one side of the door, and the lake on another.

Were you on the side opposite to the side where her royal highness was? For instance, that was the door of the stable, that (at right angles) was the window from which her royal highness looked in the court, and I was at the door of the lake, which was that way (at right angles).

From the position in which you stood on the side of the court, you could see her royal highness? More than seeing her; for I was at that door there, and I saw her royal highness at that window there (describing them).

Did not you swear that her royal highness could not see you at that door? Yes, she could see me, but I do not know whether she did see me.

Who ordered this Mahomet to come and perform those tricks upon that occasion? I do not know.

Then for any thing you know, there might have been some persons in the same room with her royal highness, standing a little way behind her? I could not see; I saw her royal highness looking out at the window, but any other people I could not see; she put her head out at the window, to see this Arabian play these tricks.

Did you never see this Arabian play these same tricks on any other occasion? I saw him at Barona.

Was her royal highness present upon that occasion also? With Pergami.

Any body else? The people of the family.

Men as well as women? Footmen, coachmen, kitchen people, scullions, who were there to look at it.

When you left her royal highness's service, you have told us you first went into the service of Odescalchi? Yes.

Were you in her royal highness's family at the time the affair of the baron Ompteda happened?

The Solicitor General objected to the question, as assuming that some affair had happened, in which the person styled baron Ompteda was concerned.

Mr. Brougham.

Did you ever see the baron Ompteda? I do not remember that name.

Did you ever, during the year after the long voyage, see a German baron dining at her royal highness's at the Villa d'Este? In the house Villani, I saw him.

Then you do know a certain German baron, who used to visit her royal highness. He was a Prussian.

What was his name like, as nearly as you can recollect? I do not remember the name, because it was an extraordinary or unusual name, but he was called the baron, baron, baron, something.

Was this baron, whatever the extraordinary name might be, very frequently at her royal highness's house? Yes, I remember myself well; that I can swear he has come twice to the house Villani.

What makes you recollect this baron coming there? This I do not know.

Was there any affair happened in the princess's family—any thing that made a noise in the family, connected with this baron whatever he was? This I do not remember.

During the time you were in the service of her royal highness at the Villa Villani, or the Villa d'Este, do you recollect any blacksmith or locksmith being examined there with respect to picking of locks? This I do not remember.

Or about making false keys? This I do not remember.

You never heard of any such thing in the family while you were there? This I do not remember to have heard; I do not remember it.

Do you remember no quarrel taking place between lieutenant Hownam and this German baron while you were there? I have heard that they had quarrelled together, but I do not know the cause of the quarrel.

At about what time did you hear this about the quarrel? I do not remember.

Was it before or after you came from the long voyage? This I do not remember.

About how long? I do not remember.

About how long was it before you left her royal highness's service, was it years, or months? I do not remember these things.

Do you mean to say you cannot remember whether it was a week or two years before? I do not remember the time.

Do you recollect what company used to come to the theatre at the Villa d'Este, where you state her royal highness acted twice? This I do not know.

Did you ever see the prefect of Como Tamasia and his lady attend that theatre? This I do not remember.

Professor Mocatti, of Milan, did you ever see him there? I have seen the professor Mocatti there.

Do you mean visiting at the villa, or at the theatre? I have seen him come and pay a Visit, but in Tegard to the comedy I have not seen him.

Did you ever see general Bubna the Austrian commandant, there, with his lady? Whether she was his wife I do not know, but I remember to have seen general Bubna come to pay a visit to her royal nighness with a lady.

Did you ever see general Pino visit her royal highness? I recollect once, it may have been more, but I remember his coming but once.

Used you to wait at table at dinner? Yes.

Will you take upon your self to say that you do not know that your old master general Pino dined there more than once while you were in the service of her royal highness? Once alone that I have seen him, I have seen him but once, that I recollect.

Do you know the person of the prefect Tamasia at Como? Yes.

Will you take upon you to say you have not seen him and his lady dine with her royal highness more than once? I do not recollect.

Do you mean that you never recollect to have seen him dine there once, or only once? I remember once alone; it might have been many times, but once alone is what I recollect.

Did not the persons who happened to be visiting in her royal highness's house take part indiscriminately in those plays which were acted at her private theatre? I do not recollect.

Did Mr. Hownam never act? I do not recollect.

Mr. Cavalletti? I do not recollect.

Do you mean to represent, that you never saw any other parts performed upon that stage, except by her royal highness and Pergami? This I do not know; in the moment I entered I saw her royal highness and Pergami; other people I saw not, for I went away; there might have been.

What sort of a comedy were they acting while you saw them? When I was entering the room, I saw Pergami dressed as a sailor, performing the part of a buffoon, with a blad- der striking like a fiddler, but then I went away and saw nothing else, because I did not remain at the comedy

Did Mahomet perform his dance on that stage as an after-piece? I saw nothing of that.

You say you were four or five months in the family of Odescalchi, when did you go from his service? Not in the service; I was more than five months in the service of Odescalchi.

How long were you in the marquess Odescalchi's service? Near a-year.

Were you all your time Italy with him? No, I was with him in Germany.

How soon after you went to him did you go with him to Germany? Perhaps two or three months, precisely I do not know; I may be mistaken perhaps; a few day9 more or a few days less.

How long were you with him at Vienna? Six or seven months, but preciselyl do not recollect.

What wages had you from the marquess? At Milan I had fifty soldi per day, five-and-twenty pence; at Vienna, four livres.

Do you mean livres of Milan? Yes, livres of Milan.

How many soldi are in a Milan livre? Twenty.

Was this rise of wages on account of your being living at inns and hotels? Because I was not at my own house, for at my own house I had my own dinner; being on a journey, he gave me four livres a day.

How much wages had you with her royal highness per day? Every three months I received thirty ducats; twenty-nine ducats every three months.

How many livres of Milan is there in a ducat? A ducat contains about six livres and a half of Milan; but I do not know precisely.

Had you with her royal highness these twenty-nine ducats every three months, living all the while in her royal highness's house, and supported at the table? Yes.

Had you any other perquisites or advantages of any sort besides that, when you were with her royal highness? I do not recollect.

Was her royal highness kind to all her servants? She was kind and affable.

At the marquess Odescalchi's, where you had fifty soldi per day, you had to find yourself, had you not? I had pottage.

Interpreter. It is not the same as soup, it is a species of hotch-potch, but without meat.

Mr. Brougham.

Had you made money, and saved a little fortune in her royal highness's service? I had put by seven hundred livres.

What time had you taken to make this; in how many years? Three years.

Did you save any thing afterwards on your fifty sold is a day, when you were at the marquess Odescalchi's? I was making economy to save a little money for my family.

What does your family consist of? A wife and two small daughters.

How old are the daughters? One of them is nine years, the other is between two years and two years and a half.

About what time did you quit the service of the marquis Odescalchi at Vienna? About two years ago.

Into whose family did you go as a servant from the marquis Odescalchi, who hired you after him? The ambassador at Vienna.

Was it the English ambassador? The English ambassador, it was him I went to live with.

What is the name of the English ambassador? Lord Stewart.

Did you go as a postilion and courier, or a lackey to the English ambassador? The lord Stewart gave me only my subsistence.

Do you mean that you became attached to his embassy, as a sort of private secretary, or what? I was always at the ambassador's, and the ambassador gave me something to live upon.

Do you mean that you were in his house on the footing of a private friend? No, not as a friend.

When did you first see his excellency the English ambassador at Vienna? I do not remember when I saw him; I saw the secretary.

What was the secretary's name? Colonel Dureno.

Was he an Englishman or an Italian? I do not know; I cannot say.

In what language did he talk to you? In French.

Do you know a certain colonel Brown? I do.

What countryman is he? I do not know of what country he may be.

What language does he talk? In French.

Where did you first see colonel Brown? At Milan.

Was it while you were in the service of the Odescalchi family? No.

Whose service were you then in? I was serving no one at that time; I had left the service of Erba Odescalchi.

Do you mean that you left the family of Odescalchi for some time, and then went with him on a second hiring to Vienna? No, I left Vienna and went to Milan to colonel Brown.

Do you mean to colonel Brown, or with colonel Brown? I went to colonel Brown.

Whom did you go with from Milan to Vienna? With my father.

At what time was it you went from Milan to Vienna with the marquis Odescalchi? On the 80th of August, three years ago.

Do you mean in the year 1817? Yes, I think so.

At what time did you leave the service of the princess? In the year 1817.

In what month of the year? This I cannot remember.

Was it summer or winter? It was during summer; half summer.

How long after you left her royal highness's service, did you go with the Odescalchi family to Vienna? About five or six months afterwards.

How did you return to Milan from Vienna? I came to Milan to colonel Brown.

Who accompanied you? My father.

Was your father in the service of the Odescalchi family at Vienna? He was not.

How does he happen to come to Vienna, your respectable father? My father came to Vienna to take me.

Who sent him for you? I cannot know that.

What is your father? A carter, a carrier, carrying merchandize with horses.

Does he carry from Milan to Vienna, is that the constant course he makes with goods? No.

How did this carrier happen to set out, to pay you this visit at Vienna? He came to Vienna, to tell me to come to Milan.

Did he come with his carrier's cart? No, no.

At the time that your father came to Vienna, were you in the ambassador's service? I was not.

Were you living in the ambassador's house? No.

Was it during the time that you were supported by the ambassador? No.

In whose service were you? Of the marchese of Odescalchi.

When your father took you to Milan, did you there see colonel Brown or colonel Deering? I saw colonel Deering at Vienna, and colonel Brown at Milan.

You have seen colonel Brown, have not you, when you were in the service of the marchese di Odescalchi? Not during his service, but after my father came to fetch me.

What induced you to leave the service of the marchese Odescalchi, whom you liked so well as to accompany him to Vienna, and to go back with this respectable old carter to Milan? My father told me to go to Milan together with him, and I went to Milan together with my father.

Did you go to Milan because your father desired you, merely from respect for the orders of your parent? No, he told me that at Milan there was colonel Brown, who wanted to speak to me.

Did you not humbly represent upon that occasion, that your bread depended upon your place in marquis Odescalchi's family? Yes.

But still he told you to go and speak to colonel Brown, and therefore you went with him to speak to colonel Brown? Yes.

Do you go every where whenever any-body comes to say to you colonel Brown wants to speak to you, do you immediately leave your place to go to him? When my father told me so, I went to colonel Brown directly.

If your father were to go and ask you to speak to colonel Black, would you go also there?

The Solicitor General objected to the question what the witness would do under particular circumstances; that what his conduct had been, and what his motives were, was proper subject of examination; but not what would be his conduct under certain circumstances.

Mr. Brougham.

Did you ever before go, at your father's desire, any where to speak to colonel Brown, or colonel any body else? Never, before my father spoke to me, I never vent to any place.

Had you ever seen colonel Brown before you went to speak to him at Milan? Never.

How did you support yourself on the journey from Vienna to Milan to speak to colonel Brown? My father paid my journey.

Has he made a private fortune by the lucrative trade of a carter or waggoner? No, he has not made a fortune as a carrier.

Has your father any money at all, except what he makes from day to day by his trade? I do not know.

Did your father and you live pretty comfortably on the road from Vienna to Milan, when you were going in order to speak to colonel Brown? We wanted nothing.

In what sort of a carriage did you go? A carrettina, or small calash, or cart.

When you got to Milan, did your father introduce you to this colonel, to whom you had come so far to speak? Yes.

Did you complain to colonel Brown of the loss you had sustained by giving up a good master and a good place? I do not remember.

Had you made any bargain with the marquess Odescalchi before leaving here, that he was to take you back when you got back from Milan, after your conversation with colonel Brown? I do not recollect.

Have you any doubt, that you will state on your oath here, that you made no such bargain whatever with the marquis Odescalchi? I do not remember.

Have you ever again been in the family of Odescalchi as a servant, since that conversation with the colonel? Yes.

When did you go back to the Odescalchi family? Not in his service, but he was going to Hungary, and he sent for me, to ask whether I would accompany him to Hungary.

Did you go with him as a friend, to go to a Partie de Chasse in Hungary? No, I was asked by the marquis de Odescalchi whether I would go with him into Hungary as a cook for three months.

Did you go with him and receive wages as a cook for those three months? He made me a present; I was not at his wages, but he made me a present.

How long were you in Hungary? Three months, or three months and a half.

Was Odescalchi a friend of his excellency the English ambassador at Vienna? I do not know.

Did you ever see the English ambassador at his house? I do not know.

How long is it since you came back from that trip to Hungary with the marquess Odescalchi? Last year, after the month of Au-gust; I do not know precisely whether it was August or September, but it was between those two months.

From the time you went to Milan to the time you came back to Odescalchi's family, to go to Hungary, how did you support yourself, having ceased to receive wages from him? The ambassador gave me something to live upon.

Did the ambassador give you any thing when you left Vienna, to go to Milan with your father? I do not remember.

Did you and your father pay for your own expenses upon that comfortable journey to Milan, which you took together? My father paid.

Did you travel by post horses or by vetturina? By post.

Both coming and going back? No.

How did you return from Milan to Vienna? By vetturina.

Who paid for your place by the vetturina from Milan back to Vienna? I and my father.

How did you pay; who gave you the money that enabled you to pay for yourself? Colonel Brown.

Did your father go back to Vienna from Milan with you? Yes.

Is your father in this country at present? Yes.

And your wife? Yes.

And your small family of children? No.

What square or street do you all live in? I cannot tell the name, for I do not know the name.

How did you come down here to day, did you walk or come in a carriage? On foot.

About how far was it that you came; how many streets did you come? I cannot ascertain the distance.

How many minutes did you take to walk from your residence, or hotel, or house, to the place where you now are? Ten minutes.

Who came with you? I do not know; it was a gentleman who came to call me.

Do your father and your wife live in the same hotel with you? Yes.

And nobody else lives in the same hotel with yourselves, I suppose? Yes.

About how many others may there be? I cannot recollect, I do not know.

Will you swear that there are not 70 of you? I cannot tell, because I do not know the number;

Are they all Italians? I have never asked them; I do not know.

Are there any other Italians but yourself, your valuable parents and your amiable wife?

The counsel was informed, that in the opinion of the House the question was irregular; that it was slanderous.

Are there any other Italians besides your father and your wife? I believe there are some Italians.

Have you any doubt of there being any other Italians besides yourself? Yes, there are some other Italians.

Are there many waiters upon this inn? I do not number them.

Do you know the name or sign of the hotel? I do not know.

The Solicitor General

objected to the question, as assuming that the witness was at an hotel, which he had not stated.

Mr. Brougham.

—Is it an inn at which you lodge? I do not know whether it be an inn.

Is there a sign above the door? I made no observation.

Have they ever brought you in a bill to pay? No.

Have you ever paid anything? Not yet; but I am to pay.

Are you to pay yourself for your own entertainment at this inn, or whatever it is? This I have not been asked for yet, whether I am to pay; I do not know whether I am to pay.

Have you to pay for your entertainment at the place where you are lodging; are you to pay for your own keep? I do not know.

[Counsel were directed to withdraw.]

The House adjourned at five o'clock.