Lords Sitting of 29 November 1819

MISDEMEANORS BILL.
The Lord Chancellorrose to introduce a bill. He begged leave to assure their lordships, that it did not arise out of the circumstances of the times. It was well known that it had been his intention to introduce this bill, whether the circumstances which at present called for their consideration had occurred or not. He then proceeded to describe the object of the bill. He stated, that it was the practice of the courts to allow defendants, in cases of information or indictments to imparle or traverse. The effect of which was, to gain time till the next term or sessions. The effect of this practice had been, in several instances, that the trials of individuals against whom informations had been filed, or indictments found, had been so delayed that the prosecution failed to answer any of the purposes for which it was commenced. His object, therefore, in the present bill, was, to take away the right of imparling or traversing, by compelling the parties to plead in the term or at the sessions in which the information should be filed or the indictment found, unless, upon any special grounds urged, the court should think proper to allow the parties to imparle or traverse. This would prevent those unnecessary delays to which he had already adverted, without in any way interfering with substantial justice. His lordship presented the bill, which was read a first time.
Lord Hollandwished to understand distinctly the object of the bill. He had not caught sufficiently the expressions of the noble and learned lord to understand whether the bill was intended equally to apply to imparling and traversing, to prevent both, or in what particular way it was in that respect to operate. He wished, therefore, for further information upon those points. There was another point also respecting which he wished to know whether any provision was introduced into the bill—he alluded to informations filed ex officio by the attorney-general. He wished to know whether there was any provision by which that

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officer, in case of his not proceeding after a certain time upon an information, might be compelled either to go on or to enter a nolle prosequi? He wished likewise to be informed, whether any provision was introduced into the bill for the purpose of enabling the court to grant a copy of an information or indictment to the defendant, at the public expense? As, according to what had been stated by the noble and learned lord, the defendant was to be hurried on to his trial much more rapidly than at present, it seemed more than ever necessary that some provision should be made, by means of which he should be enabled to know the precise nature of the charge against him. If this were not the case, the bill would appear to do every thing for the prosecution and nothing for the defendant.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that what was called imparling in civil actions, was more generally known by the name of traversing in cases of prosecution for misdemeanor, and it was the right arising out of this practice, which it was the object of the bill to take away, except in those cases where, from special circumstances, the court, either of king's bench or at the sessions, should deem it advisable to allow the party the benefit of traversing. Respecting ex officio informations, there was no provision in the bill, but it would be, of course, competent to any noble lord, in the progress of the bill, to move any clause he might think requisite. Neither was there any provision in the bill with regard to the granting of copies of informations or indictments to defendants at the public expense. Every court, however, would of course feel it to be a duty that a defendant (who must of course, know the general nature of the charge against him) should be made acquainted with the precise nature of the charges against him contained in any information or indictment on which he was to be tried.
The bill was ordered to be printed.

BLASPHEMOUS LIBELS—SEIZURE OF ARMS—TRAINING PREVENTION BILLS.
Lord Sidmouth roseto call the attention of their lordships to the measures which the ministers of his royal highness the Prince Regent thought it necessary to propose in the present situation of the country. He trusted that their lordships would find those measures to be such as would suit the necessity of the case, with-
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out going beyond it; and to combine a due regard to the right of the subject, with that consideration which was due to the safety of the state. It was unnecessary for him to go into any detail of the danger in which the country was placed; that was admitted: it was known, that a conspiracy existed for the subversion of the constitution and of the rights of property; and that it was intended to subvert the fabric of the constitution in church and state. Among the means adopted for the accomplishment of this end, it was with grief he had to state, that the press was one of the principal. It had greatly contributed to produce the danger against which their lordships had to guard. It was a subject of most melancholy regret that the free press, which had hitherto been the glory of this country, and had contributed so much to its greatness from a shield and guard of liberty, should become an instrument of its destruction. Yet this was what their lordships had witnessed. That act which was calculated to instruct and console, was perverted to rob mankind of all hope of future happiness; because it was supposed, that when the people of this country were deprived of all the consolations of religion, they would be the better prepared to throw off their allegiance, and lose their accustomed respect for the laws and the constitution.
He should now state to their lordships, as accurately as possible, the nature of the measures which were at the present crisis thought necessary to meet the enormous evil he had described. It was the great character of a free press that its productions were not interfered with before publication; but that when the publication took place, if it should be considered to be injurious to morals, to religion, or to the good order of society, it then became liable to prosecution. In the bill which he was about to describe to their lordships, as one of those to be submitted to their consideration, this great principle, on which the free press was founded, was not invaded. It had been, indeed, in consideration, but for a moment only, whether some step ought not to be taken preliminary to publication; but that idea was immediately discarded, as inconsistent with the principle to which he had referred. The bill he had first to propose to their lordships, had not in view to visit offenders with increased punishment in the first instance; but, in case of

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the repetition of any seditious or blasphemous libel, it was thought advisable that an additional punishment should be inflicted. It was therefore proposed, that any person, having been tried, convicted, and punished for a seditious or blasphemous libel, should, on conviction of a second offence, be liable, at the discretion of the court, to the punishment of fine, imprisonment, banishment, or transportation. It was also proposed that, in such cases of second conviction, a power should be given to seize the copies of the libel in the possession of the publisher: the copies so seized to be preserved until it should be seen whether an arrest of judgment was moved, and then to be returned to the publisher, if the judgment of the court should be in his favour. These were the chief provisions of a bill which he should have the honour to submit to their lordships; but he might here be permitted to advert to what was intended to be proposed in another place, in order that a distinct view might be obtained of the whole of the measures which his majesty's ministers thought it their duty to recommend. The principle of the bill which he had next to explain, he must acknowledge, was not similar to that which he had just described. It was intended to propose, that all publications, consisting of less than a given number of sheets, should be subject to a duty equal to that paid by newspapers. This might, perhaps, be said to be breaking in, in some degree, on the principle laid down in introducing the previous bill to the knowledge of the House. It would be for their lordships, however, to consider the necessity of the occasion, and to say, whether this degree of infringement of the principle was not indispensable, in order to check the progress of blasphemy and sedition. Another provision of this bill would be, that persons putting forth a publication of the kind to which he had adverted should be required to enter into recognizances, or give security of their ability to pay any penalty which might be inflicted on them. A great feature in the evil which their lordships were called upon to correct, arose from the assemblages of great bodies of people. Those assemblages were influenced by seditious publications and itinerant demagogues, who availed themselves but too successfully of the present state of the laws, in order to bring great bodies of people together from different parts of the country. As the law
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now stood, any individual might issue his mandate to bring together all the idle and curious part of the population of the country at any time, or in any place he pleased. The persons who had called these meetings considered themselves empowered (whether legally or not was not at present the question) to attend them with martial music, flags, and banners, all of which ensigns, independently of that flagitious standard displayed at Manchester, and which was so indicative of the designs of those who bore it, were of a nature calculated to produce disorder and alarm. He should now state to their lordships, what were the provisions of the bill by which it was proposed to obviate the danger arising from such tumultuous and seditious meetings. In the first place, he could assure them, that it was not intended to interfere with the right of the subject to petition the Prince Regent or parliament, or to meet for the discussion of any grievance under which the people might conceive that they were labouring; but it would be seen, by reference to the bills on the table, that one of the principal causes of the agitation, alarm, and disorder which at present prevailed in the country, was, in addition to the licentiousness of the press, the assembling of great bodies of people to hear the harangues of itinerant orators. Nothing would be introduced into the bill that would tend to impede or interrupt meetings regularly called by a sheriff, borough reeve, or other magistrate; but it would be proposed to enact, that if any parties should be desirous of meeting for the consideration of subjects connected with the church or state, their intention should be notified by a requisition, signed by seven householders, and that it should be illegal for any person not usually inhabiting the place for which such meeting was called to attend it. In another provision, it was proposed to give to the magistrates the power, with some limitations, of appointing the place and time of the meeting.
These, according to the best of his recollection, were the leading provisions of the bill relative to public meetings, which, with the preceding bill, would be introduced in another place. He had now to call their lordships attention to another measure which he should have to submit to their consideration. It appeared, from the correspondence now before parliament, that the persons who agitated the country by large assemblages, emboldened

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by their numbers, had contemplated means for attaining their ends, very different from their ostensible purpose of petitioning, and that they were prepared to proceed to accomplish their illegal object by force of arms. The preparation for this object had been carried on to a most formidable extent; and yet he had been told, that, in consequence of the present state of the law, unless the criminal intent should be proved, or a breach of the peace take place, meetings of military training could not be visited with any penalty. Full proof of the extensive drilling and military exercise which prevailed in Lancashire was afforded by the numerous depositions in the papers on the table. It might, it was true, be urged, that very few names appeared to these depositions; in many instances only the initials were printed, and sometimes the names of individuals were left blank. The reason of this was, that many of the persons who had been examined did not choose that their names should be made public: the apprehension of danger from such disclosure was great, and was sufficient to account for the suppression of the names; but for the authenticity of the depositions their lordships knew the magistrates were responsible. In all cases, the names of the magistrates were given, though the names of the individuals who gave the information might remain unknown. His lordship referred to the evidence of one person for what took place on the day previous to the Manchester meeting, and the deposition of that person was signed with his name. It was known that there was to be a meeting in the neighbourhood on the 15th of August, for training, and that that assemblage was to be the last previous to the Manchester meeting. Their lordship's upon reference to the papers, would see the account which was given of the conduct of the persons who assembled for military exercise at White-moss. The witness, after describing what he saw, stated, that he and his companions had been pursued by part of the persons assembled, and, when overtaken, received very severe treatment. In consideration of this state of things, it was proposed to prohibit military training, except under the authority of a magistrate or lord-lieutenant of the county. Their lordships were also aware of the terror which prevailed in consequence of the knowledge that the disaffected were in the possession of arms.
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Papers on the table left no doubt of the danger which was to be apprehended from this source. It had, therefore, he regretted to state, been deemed indispensably necessary to give to magistrates in the disturbed districts, on evidence which might afford a well grounded suspicion of arms being collected for the purpose of being illegally employed, the power of searching for and seizing them. It was also proposed to give the power of apprehending persons carrying arms for such purpose, and of seizing the same, and of detaining the individual on whom arms might be so found; the right of appeal to the quarter sessions being, however, allowed to the person so apprehended and detained.
These were, in outline, the whole of the measures relative to the state of the country, which ministers thought it their duty at the present moment to submit to parliament. He had abstained from many details which appeared more suitable to subsequent stages of the bills. He was impressed with the hope, that, improved by the assistance of their lordships and the other house of parliament, they would be found suitable to the momentous occasion which required their introduction. Conciliation had been recommended, and it was with the most ardent wish of his majesty's ministers to resort to measures which were truly conciliatory; but they would not consent to compromise the safety of the state. Any mode which should be proposed for relieving the distress of the country would always receive their thanks and attention; for that was the great object which ought to be kept in view. If such proposition should present itself to the mind of any noble lord opposite, it would be gladly received by himself and his colleagues. But, to hold out a disposition to blend conciliation with concession, was a course to which he could not agree; for it was one fraught with danger; bat what, he would ask their lordships, had they to concede. Did they not possess the constitution they had received from their ancestors? And was it not their duty firmly to maintain it? That constitution was now in greater danger than it ever had been at any time, since the accession of the House of Brunswick to the throne, and he therefore called upon their lordships to rally round it. He called upon the noble lords opposite to give their aid, to assist in defeating the common enemy that

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threatened the subversion of the constitution and every thing valuable in the existing order of society. Whatever differences they might have, let them in the mean time go hand in hand in this great object, and not only endeavour to avert the danger of the present moment, but, as far as possible to, secure the constitution against future attacks. He assured the noble lord that his great object was, that the government should be administered according to the constitution; that the country should never be placed under a military government, but should always enjoy the government of the laws. He proposed that the bills he had prepared should now be read a first time. On Thursday he would move the second reading, and in the mean time they would be printed.
Earl Greysaid, he should object to so early a day as Thursday being fixed upon for the second reading of these bills. The noble secretary had, indeed, prefaced the proposition of his new measures with a statement which contained the grounds on which he meant to support them; and, by the connected view which he gave of the whole system, had enabled the House to understand the extent of the demands to be made upon it; yet their lordships would necessarily expect more information than had yet been given, before they proceeded to legislate, and would require that the introduction of each bill should be accompanied with a clear exposition of the reasons which rendered it necessary, or justified its enactment. On that day the House was summoned to the discussion of the bill brought in by the noble and learned lord on the wool-sack, which contemplated, as was rightly stated by the noble and learned lord, a most important alteration in the existing law of the land, an alteration which could not be allowed to take place without the fullest investigation, and the evidence of its necessity. With the prospect of this discussion on the second reading of the noble and learned lord's bill, their lordships would not, he was convinced, consent to appoint the second reading of three other important bills on the same day. The noble secretary had called upon their lordships to support his proposed measures, from a consideration of the dangers by which they were surrounded; and if he could be prevailed upon to think that the bills now before the House could meet and repress the evils described, he would be the first
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to obey the call, and lend them his cordial support. But, viewing as he did their character in a different light from the noble secretary; having a different conception of the danger, looking upon it as arising from causes and requiring remedies which were little attended to, if not entirely overlooked by his majesty's government; and believing that the system of force, coercion, and terror, which was now attempted to be established in this once free and happy country, was calculated rather to irritate and inflame the discontents that existed, than to allay or repress them; to increase the danger rather than to diminish it; and to confirm rather than to remove that settled distrust and want of confidence between the people and legislature, which, he was sorry to say, the proceedings of parliament were calculated to spread throughout the land!—thinking and believing in this manner, he would declare, that instead of promising his concurrence in those measures called for by the noble secretary, he must take the earliest opportunity of protesting against them, and state his conviction, that instead of saving, they would produce ruin to the country. He could not but view the encroachments now attempted on our most valuable rights with the utmost regret and alarm. The proposed bills went to impose restraints on the right of public meetings for petitioning, which, he allowed might, in some cases, be abused, but which restraint could not be established consistently with the maintenance of the right. The restraints about to be imposed on the press, he had heard with the utmost dismay. They were absolutely incompatible with the freedom which the noble secretary admitted had produced so much advantage to this country; which had protected those institutions and diffused that spirit which constituted its boast and its glory. The noble secretary had stated, that the seditious and blasphemous publications were one main source of the dangers with which the country was now threatened; but, had he ascertained that the destruction of the freedom of the press was the only mode of checking its abuses; and had he reflected on the evils which restriction would bring along with them? To the freedom of the press this country owed the preservation of its liberty, which could not be long maintained without such an alloy, and with its liberty, its strength, its happiness, and its glory. When, there-

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fore, he saw a design to impose new restraints upon the press by enacting severe additional punishments in cases of second convictions, and requiring securities before publication, he could not but be alive to the evils which the measures would produce. He was alarmed when he reflected how it would raise the price of knowledge, and impede the progress of education to the poor. It took away the protection allowed to free discussion, and aimed a blow at one of our most valuable rights, such as the most arbitrary ministers in the most arbitrary times, never proposed to parliament, and against which he would never cease to protest.—But there was another view of the case which rendered the proposed restraints the more obnoxious, by taking away all pretext for them. The noble secretary now demanded the enactment of new laws for the protection of the government, and the maintenance of public order: but had the old laws been enforced, and found inefficient for that object? The noble lord, before he asked for additional restrictions, was bound to show that those seditious and blasphemous works which had been so long in circulation, had been made subject to the most rigorous exercise of the existing laws of which they were susceptible. He (lord Grey) knew that the law officers of the Crown had in one or two instances, prosecuted without being able to procure a conviction; but he knew at the same time, some horrible and disgusting publications—publications directly recommending assassination—publications supporting principles contrary to all Jaw and order—had not been prosecuted. For two years the most seditious doctrines had been published in a work alluded to in the papers on the table— "Sherwin's Political Register;" and yet no attempt was made to check their spread. Such works had poisoned the public mind, if the good sense of the people would allow them to be poisoned by such offensive trash; but no endeavour was made to suppress them by the existing laws. The noble secretary, therefore, before he came to ask for new enactments, was bound to show that such offenders had been prosecuted as they ought, and that the existing law was insufficient for their coercion and punishment. Feeling as he did on these points, and looking as he did with dismay on the proposed system of government, which would increase the danger it was meant to avert, he
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could not but take the earliest opportunity of expressing his sentiments, although he did not mean to enter at large into the separate measures: those measures comprehended restraints on public meetings and on the liberty of the press, and put it into the power of the magistrates to deprive the subject of those arms which he might have for his own defence. The justification of such restraints rested on the papers which had been presented to the House, and which were considered by his majesty's ministers as disclosing a great extent of danger. Now, he was willing to allow that these papers, incomplete as he maintained them to be, and requiring many additions and explanations, did prove a considerable extent of danger, but a danger arising from the distress of the people—a distress amounting to absolute hunger, and admitted in their first accounts, as the cause of the danger. That there were persons who took advantage of this distress to inflame the discontents of the sufferers, he was willing to allow: but he said there was no evidence either in the papers on the table, or in the general state of the country, to convince him that any conspiracy against law and order had been formed, or that the public tranquillity was extensively threatened. Such a conspiracy, and such a danger, he neither saw in any way proved, nor could he believe in its existence. The noble lord had spoken of conciliation; but his notions of it were rather rigid. He had declared that he would subdue first, before he would concede. Now, he (lord Grey) could not conceive on what ideas of dignity the noble secretary went when he maintained such a maxim. If there were demands which the people had a right to make, and which, from the state of the country, it was proper to grant, why resist concession? He was prepared to admit that the people had a right to an indulgent attention to their grievances; that there existed abuses in the government, and defects in the construction of parliament which ought to be taken into consideration; and that a yielding to the prayers of the nation in this respect might allay discontent, without being a dangerous concession. To these and such things parliament ought to turn its attention. It ought to institute inquiries into their grievances, and show a desire to redress their wrongs or injuries where they have been suffered or inflicted. Such mea-

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sures of conciliation would do more to bring back the country to peace and tranquillity than the present bills, and give it more strength and security than any system of restraints, or laws of severity and coercion.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, he did not rise for the purpose of entering on the discussion of any of the bills which had been submitted to the House. The question now was as to the first reading; and to this there seemed to be no objection. But he could not allow the speech of the noble earl to go forth to the world without some reply, as it was calculated, if left uncontradicted, to produce a false impression. The noble earl had treated the proposed measures as a system of coercion; whereas he (lord Liverpool) was prepared to maintain that they composed a system of protection. If they prevented those acts which endangered the existence of our rights, they were the best safeguards of those rights. He was prepared to deny that any one of them, with the exception of the bill relative to the search of arms, went to affect the proper, legal, and well-understood privileges of Englishmen. The bill for preventing seditious meetings, so far from having any tendency to abridge the right of petition, was its best protection by putting a stop to those tumultuous assemblages which had grown out of a good, but which might endanger that good, by disgusting every Englishman with such an exercise of it. The bill before the House would thus give the right of petition tenfold additional security. It was a bill not to prevent meetings of the people in their own districts, but to put a stop to the assembling of great multitudes collected from distant parts, and guided by demagogues, who stimulated their minds to a hatred and contempt of every thing dignified or venerable. If such evils were allowed to proceed to greater inveteracy, how could they be put down? Why, by military force. And would any good man, or lover of his country, wish "such a result? No; therefore such disorders must be checked and put down in time. Those were the best friends of the right, who prevented its abuse. The other bill regarding restraints on the press, he was prepared to contend, must be viewed in the same light, the noble earl had not understood the extent of the evil of seditious and blasphemous publications, or the power of the law as it at present stood in checking them.
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The present laws were not adequate to check the mischief. They had been tried; they were now in a course of trial; but unless some more effectual enactments were added, the evil would continue. The severity of the proposed measures did not justify the complaints of the noble earl. The extent of the proposition before the House did not go to alter the law, as far as respected first convictions. It merely said that a person who had been tried, convicted, and punished for a blasphemous and seditious libel, might, on a second conviction be subjected to greater severity of punishment, by imprisonment, banishment, or transportation, at the discretion of the court. The other measure affecting the press, which would go to impose a duty on a certain class of publications, could scarcely be regarded as any change of the law; it was rather an enforcement of an existing law which had been evaded, than the enactment of any new law. Nor did he see any tiling particularly objectionable in the bill which required the printer and publisher to lodge securities, against any fine that might be imposed on him for the abuse of the freedom of the press. Was it to be endured, that these men should be allowed to scatter their poison about, without being known who were responsible for them? The noble earl had spoken of moral tracts; but with respect to them, some satisfactory resolution would be introduced into the bill. The only other law in what was called this system of coercion, namely, that authorizing a search for arms, was merely a re-enactment of the statute against Luddism. Having said thus much, he would not trespass longer on their lordships' attention than merely to speak of the arrangements for the second readings. His noble friend had fixed Thursday for the second reading of all the bills; if they could not be discussed then, along with the bill introduced by his noble and learned friend on the woolsack, the debate might be postponed to another day. He could assure their lordships, that there was no disposition on the part of ministers to prevent the fullest examination and discussion. He would wish that the training and search bills, as they were of imperious necessity, should be first discussed. He would suggest, that the lord chancellor's bill might be read a second time on Friday.
The training and search for arms bills were ordered to be read a second time on

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Thursday; the lord chancellor's bill a second time on Friday; and the blasphemous a second time on Monday next.