Lords Sitting of 26 March 1819

STATE OF THE NAVY.
The Earl of Darnleysaid, he understood the motions he was about to bring forward would not be opposed, and he should therefore merely state, in a few words, his reason for making them. He was fully aware of the necessity for economy in every branch of the public service, but if there was any one branch more than another that the public would feel least disposed to stint, it was the naval service, and he thought it would be found that this service had been reduced too low; for he was afraid, from the late arrangements with respect to the guard-ships, that if the occasion required, not even two ships, of the line Could be tent to sea properly manned and
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equipped. He was also induced to believe, that in the building of the ships all the improvements had not yet been introduced, which were calculated to place them in a proper state of efficiency, when wanted. He then moved for accounts of the number of ships in commission, those that had been repaired, those that were building, &c.
Lord Melvillehad no objection to the motions, nor the least disinclination to meet any inquiry upon the subject. He could confidently assert, that the navy was now in a more efficient state than it had been at a similar period after any former war; and so far from the naval establishment being reduced, the number of seamen now employed was greater than in any former peace; the number on former occasions having been 16,000, whilst it was now 20,000.
The Earl of Liverpoolwarmly eulogized the conduct of his noble friend and the board of Admiralty, in placing the navy in the efficient state in which it undoubtedly was. The noble earl, perhaps, meant to allude to the employment of a part of the seamen in the prevention of smuggling; but he could assure the House, that the advantages arising from that measure had exceeded expectation, as was proved by the amount of revenue in the two great articles of illicit trade, tea and spirits. So successful, indeed, had the seamen been upon this service, that the government had been enabled to reduce some of the regiments of cavalry hitherto employed on it.
The motions were agreed to.

ROYAL HOUSEHOLD BILL.
The Earl of Liverpool, on moving the second reading of the Royal Household Bill, said, he should merely shortly state the object of the bill, as he understood no opposition was intended to the principle of it. The saving made in the establishment of the Royal Household, by the regulations of the present bill, amounted to 50,000 l. per annum, exclusive of 58,000 l. per annum for the establishment of the late queen; from the latter were to be deducted the salaries and allowances given to her late majesty's servants, which amounted to 18,000 l. per annum: thus, the whole saving would not be less than 90,000 l. per annum. His lordship then adverted to the establishment for the Royal Household, agreed upon at the commencement of the regency, observing, that it was then made

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with reference not only to the afflicted state of the king, but also to the situation of the queen, and with reference also to the consideration that her majesty would, in case of her surviving the king, be entitled to 100,000 l. per annum, although it was not deemed expedient to consider her in any other character than as queen consort. Since that period, eight years had elapsed; and in consequence of her majesty's demise, and the much less probability of the recovery of the king, it had been deemed advisable to reduce the establishment, but still keeping up what was due to his dignity as sovereign, as well as to his afflicted state. In this view, the reduction had been made on the lowest possible scale; and, indeed, whatever difference of opinion had at first prevailed in another place upon this subject, all were agreed, that no farther reduction could be made, consistently with a due and proper regard to the afflicted situation of the king, and with those feelings of loyalty and affection with which, he doubted not, all were actuated towards the person of our venerated sovereign. There were some minor points of detail, upon which he differed with the other House, thinking that the reduction had been in some respects carried too far; but into this part of the subject he should not enter. There was another point also, which more properly belonged to the committee; he alluded to the grant of 10,000 l. per annum to the duke of York, as custos personæ, and which was the same amount that had been granted in a similar situation to the late queen. He was aware that objections had been urged to this, and he owed it to the duke of York to state, that his royal highness had not sought for any such allowance; nor was there any doubt that, without any such allowance, his royal highness would execute the trust reposed in him with all the fidelity and attention that the warmest affection could dictate. But his royal highness had other highly-important duties to execute, which precluded his residence at Windsor; and there must be a certain expense incurred in the execution of the trust; to what amount he could not with any precision state, but undoubtedly parliament having thought it right to give the queen 10,000 l. per annum as custos personæ, there could be no question that the duke of York was fully entitled to that allowance.
Earl Greysaid, he did not rise to oppose the second reading of the bill, being
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satisfied with it so far as it went upon a principle of reduction, which was so highly essential in the present distressed state of the country, and which, if it could be carried still farther, it would be still more satisfactory to him. In saying this, he meant nothing derogatory to the monarch; sincere and affectionate loyalty to his sovereign, compassion for his afflictions, respect for his age, induced him to wish that sovereign to have every comfort that his state required, and to have every appendage of dignity consistent with his afflicted situation; but he would grant nothing on the delusive pretence of dignity, which formed so melancholy a contrast with the actual affliction of his situation. The noble lord had alluded to what had passed in another place, and he (lord Grey) might regularly do so, because the Votes of the other House, and other documents, were before their lordships. He found, by those documents, that in the other House it had been thought expedient to refer this subject to a committee; and he could not but think, that the delicacy of the subject, and the respect due to their lordships, called for a similar proceeding in that House; or at least, if that was not thought expedient, they might have sent a message to the other House requesting a copy of the report of their committee, which would have given them some information as to the details which had been investigated. Instead of this, however, they were called upon, without information, to vote upon the bill; and though he undoubtedly rejoiced in the saving that was made, he should wish to know, whether that reduction could be still farther consistently extended; every saving, however minute, being imperiously called for by the distressed situation of the country. The question also still remained, why the reduction of the Windsor establishment had not before taken place? for no reason had been stated by the noble earl for the reduction now, in consequence of the demise of the queen, which did not equally apply to it during the life-time of her majesty, and the propriety of which reduction he (lord Grey) had often urged in that House. With regard to the allowance of 10,000 l. per annum to the duke of York, it was a subject to which he adverted with very considerable pain. He highly respected the duke for his public services; he highly esteemed him for his private virtues; but no consideration should induce him to shrink from the; dis-

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charge of a public duty; and that public duty undoubtedly compelled him to oppose the allowance. He could not, indeed, but painfully regret, that such a question had been dragged forward, tending, as it did, so deeply to injure the duke in the public estimation, the public every where considering it as prejudicial to their interests and insulting to their understandings. Nothing had been urged by the noble earl that could in any way justify such a grant; and when he considered the only plea that had been brought forward, the expense of the office of custos, he could not but view it as obtaining a grant of 10,000 l. a year under a false pretence. The noble earl had endeavoured also to justify the grant on the ground of the same allowance having been given to her late majesty; but to this he would say, that in not opposing that grant to her late majesty, he was guilty of a great oversight; but undoubtedly he considered it as unjustifiable equally with the present proposal, and the very argument itself showed the danger of making a precedent of this nature, which was thus brought forward to justify a measure contrary to justice, and which might be adduced in the same way to sanction other measures of the same tendency. He could not but deeply regret, that such a measure had been at all brought forward. The noble earl might not be acquainted with the effect produced by it in the country, but he could assure him, that that impression was the most unfavourable that any proposition could have given rise to.
The Earl of Harrowbywas sensible that the subject to which the noble earl had alluded in the latter part of his speech, was one which would best be discussed in the committee. It would then be for their lordships to consider, whether the proposition was hostile to the interests and insulting to the understanding of the public, as the noble earl called it, or one called for by a sense of justice, and of what was due to the dignity of the Crown. According to the principle laid down by the noble lord, it would be necessary for parliament to institute an investigation, in order to see how low the establishment at Windsor could be reduced, if all regard to decorum and dignity were set aside. The noble earl was willing to allow whatever night be necessary for the comfort of the royal sufferer, but nothing more. He trusted then? lordships would never pass the bill under the Idea that it was
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limited to such an object. The principle laid down by the noble earl amounted merely to this: that if their lordships provided food, lodging, and medical assistance for his majesty, under his present calamity, they sufficiently discharged their duty. Thus, that rule of provision which would be too narrow for the guidance of a dutiful son or an affectionate relative, was to be thought perfectly well suited to their lordships' feelings in arranging an establishment for the sovereign of this great country They were not then called upon to calculate whether the establishment might be 2,000 l. or 3,000 l. more or less. He stated no more than fact when he thus spoke; for if once their lordships were to consider that parliament was bound only to provide for the necessary wants, and attend to the personal comforts of the king, knowing, as they did, that nothing more was necessary to be done for the king in this respect than for any private individual, they would lower the respect of the people for the throne, and place the sovereign on a level with the meanest of his subjects. Their lordships should enter on the consideration of this measure, impressed with the idea that they were providing, not for the care and custody of an individual, but for the state and dignity of the sovereign, so far as that state and dignity could be consulted consistently with his majesty's unhappy situation, and the burthened condition of the country; animated with sentiments of regret, that the anticipation of his recovery, which at first made a more splendid establishment necessary, was now no longer entertained; lamenting that the nation could not continue, when that hope had expired, what it supported when that hope existed; and regretting that considerations of economy, and a regard for the distresses of the people, rendered the reductions necessary which had been proposed. Those reductions were most ample; but they did not affect the principle, that the present establishment was proposed for majesty, and ought to be supported as necessary to the dignity of the Crown, and the reverence due to the head of the government of the country.
Earl Greysaid, that in the whole of his parliamentary life he had never heard any thing more unnecessary, more unwarranted, and more out of place, than the remarks of the noble earl about his loyalty. He had used no expressions which could furnish a pretext for the

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loyal effusion which their lordships had just heard. He could not pledge his memory as to the particular words he had used; but, so far as he recollected, he had said, that with every sentiment of reverence for his afflicted sovereign that could be inspired by the virtues of his life or the eminence of his station, he would support any expense that was essential to the maintenance of his dignity. He only protested against that false plea of dignity which was brought to justify an extravagance which the people could ill bear, and to maintain an useless splendor, which contrasted so inharmoniously with the real circumstances of his majesty.
The Earl of Harrowbysaid, he had certainly misapprehended the noble earl; for he had understood him to say, that his consent to the bill would depend solely on the reductions of the royal establishment it contained, and the relief to the country which it administered.
The bill was then read a second time.