Lords Sitting of 16 March 1819

COAL DUTIES.
The Earl of Rosslynpresented a petition from Dysart against the equalization of the coal duties. He observed, that great apprehension had been excited throughout the country by the proceedings which had taken place for the purpose of altering the present system of coal-duties, and levying a tax at the pits. He hoped, therefore, that the noble lord opposite would explain what were the views of ministers on the subject.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that Whatever apprehension might have arisen on the subject, no proposition of the kind alluded to had received any countenance from his majesty's government. More than twelve months ago an association had been formed in the metropolis, with the view of obtaining an equalization of the duties on coals. A committee from that association had waited on him and his right hon. friend the chancellor of the exchequer, and stated the nature of their object. His right hon. friend had concurred with him in declining to give any opinion until those who were interested in opposing the proposed measure should, be heard. On hearing the other parties be and his right hon. friend had intimated

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that his majesty's government would give no support to any proposition for altering the coal-duties, or encourage any inquiry or proceeding on the subject. Of course, they did not give a pledge that they would not, under any circumstances which might arise, agree to an alteration in the system of taxation.
Earl Fitzwilliampresented a petition against any alteration in the coal-duties, signed by a great number of the merchants; manufacturers, canal share holders, &c. of Sheffield and its neighbourhood.
The Earl of Liverpoolobserved, that it was impossible for him to say, whether or not any proposition on the subject would be made in another place, what degree of encouragement might there be given to it, or whether it was likely to come in any shape before their lordships. He could, however, assure the House, that any proposition for the equalization of the duties on coal would meet with the decided opposition of those connected with the administration of his majesty's government.
The Earl of Lauderdalesaid, that the equalization called for would be one of the most injurious and unjust acts that could be committed. In the state in which this country was placed, their lordships would not attempt to legislate on the view of right and wrong, abstractedly considered; the application of the abstract, principles of justice would be the greatest injustice. They could not now act as they might do, if capital had not been sunk in manufactures and extensive works of various kinds in the districts, on which the proposed regulation would impose a new and burthensome tax. The present state of society in this country was so extremely artificial, that the greatest caution was necessary on subjects of this kind. He hoped that the declaration which had been made by the noble secretary of state would set Sheffield and other manufacturing towns at ease on this question. The people in these places had embarked their capital in undertakings on the faith of the continuance of the present system, with respect to the duties on fuel, which their manufactories required, and nothing could be more ruinous and unjust than to subject them to a tax on that necessary element.
Ordered to lie on the table.

ALIENS' AND DENIZENS' BILL.—BANK OF SCOTLAND.
Lord Sidmouthrose to more the second reading of this bill.
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Their lordships were aware that it was the consequence of a measure which had been fully discussed last session. It was the object of the bill to continue, for another year the suspension of the rights of naturalization supposed to be granted by an act of the parliament of Scotland, to aliens who became proprietors of the Bank of that country. There was at present a case before the court of session, the decision on which would decide the question, whether this was the law of the country or not. All he asked, therefore, was, that their lordships would not suffer the law which prevented such purchases to expire in the mean time, but would continue the suspension, until the legal investigation was terminated. This was the course which their lordships were bound to take; for if they allowed the bill to expire, they would, by inference, declare that to be the law, which was at present in question.
Lord Hollandcould not help expressing his surprise at finding this bill proposed for a second reading, before any i motion had been made for printing it. The noble lord conceived, that if the bill did not pass, the House would prejudge the question at issue in the court in Scotland. He was quite of a different opinion. If their lordships refrained from legislating they would leave the question just where it stood last year, before any bill on the subject was introduced. The passing, in so hasty a manner, a bill for suspending an existing law, was more like prejudging the question; and if it were now read a second time, he should consider it extremely unjust in the House to allow it to go through another stage, before it was printed, and time afforded for fully considering its principle. Their lordships must recollect, that the law which first gave occasion to the present measure was so little known to the noble secretary of state, that he did not introduce it until the Alien bill of the last session was about to pass the House.
The Earl of Liverpoolthought that the noble lord had misunderstood both the nature of the bill and the argument of his noble friend. The state of the case was this: Last year it was stated that a certain law existed in Scotland which would render the provisions of the Alien act inefficient. A bill had, therefore, been introduced, to suspend the rights supposed to be acquired under that law. A suit was now before the court of session in Scot-

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land, which would decide what the law really was His noble friend had given no opinion on the subject, and he should think it very indecorous for parliament to interfere with the judicial proceedings. This bill was, therefore, only the continuation of that which had been passed last year, When the subject was discussed last session, objections were strongly urged to the retrospective operation of the bill; but no one, as far as he recollected, disapproved of its prospective effect. The legislature rejected the retrospective clause, and passed the act which would soon expire. AH that was asked was, not to permit the law to cease to have force until the court of session pronounced its decision. The question might come before the House in the shape of an appeal, and then they would have to give judgment on it in their judicial capacity; but in the mean time it would be very improper to allow the law to expire.
The Earl of Lauderdalethought that if the noble lord meant to give the House full opportunity of judging of the principle of the bill, he would not press it farther until it was printed. The bill was, on the face of it, of a nature unlike any measure ever recommended to their lordships adoption. That a case for which a remedy was open in a court of law ought not to be interfered with by the legislature, was a principle generally acknowledged Here the House was informed that the question was before a court in Scotland; their lordships were therefore bound to wait for the decision of that court, before they ventured to legislate in any way whatever. He was taken quite by surprise. In order that time might be afforded for printing the bill, and an opportunity given to their lordships to consider it fairly, he would move, that instead of now, the bill be read a second time on Friday next.
The Earl of Harrowbyurged the necessity of proceeding with the bill. The court in Scotland would decide either for or against the claims of the persons who had purchased bank stock. If the latter, no injury would be done to them by this bill: if the former, it would become the duty of their lordships to alter the law, and prevent persons from obtaining by such means rights which were more extensive than those conferred by a bill of naturalization.
Their lordships divided on the question for the second reading: Contents, 14;
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Non-Contents, 6;—8. The question, that the bill be committed to-morrow, was also carried on a division: Contents, 14; Non-Contents, 6; Majority 8.