Lords Sitting of 15 March 1819

CHIMNEY SWEEPERS REGULATION BILL
Lord Aucklandsaid, that no argument of any weight against the bill had been urged which was not fully answered. He should, however, take the liberty of adverting to the facts which had since occurred, and which tended to prove what he had before observed, namely, that whatever prejudices existed against the; use of machinery, was generally among persons unacquainted with its use; and that as appeal to experiment was always sure to overcome that prejudice.
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The first fact to which he should refer was this: the inhabitants of the parish of Christ-church met to petition against the bill. In the course of the proceedings it was suggested, that it would be proper, in the first place, to try how far it was practicable to sweep chimnies by machinery. A machine was produced and experiments made; and the result was so satisfactory, that the very persons who assembled for the purpose of petitioning against the bill, actually signed a petition for it. The other fact had occurred in making the experiments on the chimnies connected with the House of Commons. In consequence of the directions of the Speaker, a person had proceeded to sweep with a machine, and he could only sweep 19 chimnies out of 61: the housekeeper was, however, determined to continue the experiment, and, under his superintendence, no less than 60 of the 61 were swept. The chimney that remained un-swept required some alteration to render it accessible to the machine. Having stated these facts, he moved that the bill be now committed.
The Earl of Lauderdalesaid, he was always disposed to give public bodies, as well as individuals, credit for acting with a due regard to their own interests. Now, if their lordships looked at the case on this principle, they would soon discover, that the insurance offices would have reason to be well pleased at the passing of this bill. It would increase the danger of fire, and in proportion to the risk, the rate of the insurance and the number of; insurances would augment. In fact, the bill promised to open to them a fruitful source of gain. It was absurd, therefore, to found any argument on these corporations not petitioning against it. The supporters of the bill contended, that the chimnies of the metropolis could be nearly all swept by machines. Now, were this the fact, he would at once withdraw his opposition; but, if the report of the surveyor-general was to be relied on, no such power was to be attributed to the machines. Colonel Stephenson had distinctly stated, that the total abolition of climbing boys was at present impracticable, and could not be attempted without endangering the general safety of the metropolis. But it will be replied, that it is not intended that the bill shall operate immediately; that in passing it, time will be afforded for the preparation of machinery; but colonel Stephenson's report contained satisfactory

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reasons for refusing to pass a prospective bill for such an object. It was stated in the report, that no machine had yet been invented which was capable of completely supplying the place of climbing boys. When such a machine should be invented, he would support a bill like the present; but until he saw such an invention he would oppose every measure of the kind. In the case of this bill, as in many other cases, mankind were carried away by ideas of humanity, which prevented them from giving due consideration to the subject. They took a partial view of the evil they wished to cure, and did not look at the relation in which it stood to the general state of society. Hence they were not aware of the extent of the mischief their remedy would produce. The merits of the present bill might, perhaps, be illustrated by a story which he would take the liberty of telling their lordships, though he was himself the subject of it. The physician, who had attended him in his late illness, had prescribed large doses of Calomel; so much indeed, that he thought it necessary to ask him the reason of such prescriptions. "Oh! (said the physician) I can easily prove to you the advantage of my practice. The calomel is like the climbing boys, it finds its way into every corner and cranny of the frame, and sweeps every deleterious particle clean out; whereas the other sort of medicines resemble the machines, and accordingly do the business very imperfectly. They do not follow all angles and turnings, but pass over many important parts untouched, and leave heaps of matter, which afterwards kindle into mischief." If this story had any effect in explaining the policy of the measure, he might relate another, which perhaps would serve to render its humanity more intelligible. In some parts of Ireland it had been the practice, instead of employing climbing-boys, to tie a rope round the neck of a goose, and thus drag the bird up the chimney, which was cleaned by the fluttering of its wings. This, practice so much interested the feelings of many persons, that, for the sake of protecting the goose, they seemed ready to give up all humanity towards other animals. A man in a country village having one day availed himself of the aid of a goose, was accused by his neighbour of inhumanity. In answer to the remonstances of his accuser, he observed, that he must have his chimney swept. "Yes, (replied the humane friend of the goose),
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to be sure you must sweep your chimney; but why don't you take two ducks, they will do the job as well?" The zealots for this bill had, in their blind eagerness to relieve a partial suffering, as completely forgotten the general interests of society, as the poor Irishman had disregarded the ducks in his anxiety to save the goose. He certainly should be happy to see the use of climbing boys totally abolished; but if a machine could be invented to sweep chimnies, that invention could not be promoted by this bill. He must, therefore, move as an amendment, that, instead of now, the bill be committed this day six months.
The Earl of Harrowbysaid, he was not able to entertain their lordships with any jokes, either relative to himself, or extracted from Joe Miller, but he believed very little was necessary to be said to induce them to support a measure founded in humanity, and which they had reason to conclude was perfectly practicable. He could not, however, refrain from observing, that the noble earl had, in some measure, shifted the ground of his opposition to the bill. He new dwelt solely on the danger which might be incurred in the metropolis if sweeping boys were abolished. What then had become of those general principles respecting free-labour, on which the noble earl had so strongly insisted? Of those principles the noble earl now said nothing. The best argument for the bill was, that it would afford time and opportunity for making the arrangements necessary to the abolition of climbing boys. A sufficient time was allowed for experiments; and if the bill passed, every person, in anticipating the abolition of the present inhuman practice, would be induced to try the machines. If he saw any danger to the metropolis from the measure, he should be as unwilling to support it as any noble lord; but he could perceive no ground for any such apprehension. He thought, however, that unless the bill passed, the experiment would never be fairly made.
Their lordships divided on the question, that the bill be now committed: Contents, 20; Non-contents, 37.—Majority, 17. Lord Lauderdale's amendment was then put and carried. The bill was consequently lost.