Lords Sitting of 25 February 1819

STATE OF PRISONS.
Lord Sidmouthrose to call their lordships attention to the papers which he had, in obedience to the commands of the Prince Regent, laid on the table, in pursuance of the address; moved by the noble marquis opposite for the returns of the State of Prisons and Penitentiary houses. He had the satisfaction of stating that the manner in which these setups appeared to be made, was calculated to remove the apprehension which the noble marquis had entertained, of some inaccuracy in drawing them up. From
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the examination he himself had given the returns, he did not think that there could be any material imperfection in them. Every pains had certainly been taken to produce accuracy. Letters had been written to all the sheriffs of counties, requiring returns of the state of all the gaols under their superintendence. All the clerks of the peace had also been directed to make similar returns of the prisons under their control or management. Similar directions had been sent to the magistrates of cities; and he was happy to state, that with one or two exceptions, the directions given had been correctly complied with in the returns. If any deficiency should appear, he should be happy to see it pointed out; and assured their lordships, that he would use every endeavour to have it corrected without delay. From England and Wales, the returns were nearly complete, as well as those from Scotland; but some were still wanting from Ireland. Upon the whole, about five-sixths of the returns had been received, and he regarded them as in a state of sufficient completeness to be referred, to a committee of their lordships' House. With respect to the number of persons committed, convicted, and executed their lordships were now accurately informed, by returns regularly made for the whole country, from 1805, when the regulation commenced, down to the last year. There was also a return for the county of Middlesex and the city of London, of the convictions and executions, from 1749 to 1818. It was with great satisfaction he could state, on the authority of these returns, that there had been decrease of crimes during the last year The diminution, it was true, was not considerable, but still it was gratifying to observe. It was farther gratifying to observe, that a decrease had taken place in Middlesex and London. In the county of Middlesex it appeared that the dimination had been proportionally greater than n any other county, Rutland and Glamorgan excepted. Some persons had been of opinion, that the state of the prisons was the principal cause of the increase of crimes during late years others had attributed that increase to the circumstances in which the country was placed. The first proposition, he believed could only be maintained by those who had paid no attention to the many acts of the legislature which had been passed for the regulation and management of prisons,

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and to the many other obvious causes of the increase of crimes besides that on which they had fixed. It was indeed, too much to say that the increase of crimes was chiefly to be imputed to the state of the prisons. He had little hesitation in asserting, that has every prison in the kingdom been in that state which the most benevolent person could have wished, still the circumstances in which the country had been placed would have increased them. The pressure of the necessary burthens which the country had sustained, the deficiency in the demand for labour, the number of individuals discharged from the army and navy, and all the other circumstances of derangement into which the country had been placed by the sudden change from war to peace, formed a variety of causes which could not fail to induce a tendency to crimes even if the goals had been in the best possible state with respect to the means of classification and labour. To look at the state of the gaols as the only cause of the evil which their lordships had to consider, would be taking a very imperfect view of the subject, and one which would be likely to lead to a very incomplete remedy. Even if the best plans had been devised for the classification of prisoners, the crowded state of the gaols, which the increase of crimes had occasioned, would have rendered the proper execution of those plans impracticable. To find an adequate remedy for the evil, their lordships must revert to the real causes of that enormous increase of crimes which had so justly attracted their attention. They must apply their minds to discover the means of removing those causes, and of effectually diminishing crimes, and above all that master crime which, year after year, swelled the melancholy catalogue laid before parliament. The state of the criminal law, as it respected punishments, would also demand their lordships' attention. By some that law was held out as a sanguinary code. Others had conceived that lenity in enforcing it was a great cause of the evil under which the country laboured. As to the supposition, that the execution of the laws, had become more sanguinary, he conceived that it was completely, contradicted by the returns on the table. It appeared from the returns for the country of Middlesex and London which commenced in the year 1749, down to the year 1805 when the regular returns began, that the
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annual average number of convictions was 62, and of executions 48. From the latter period to the present time the average number of convictions, was 107 and of executions only 19. This statement certainly did not exhibit any thing like a sanguinary character in the execution of the laws. It might indeed be a question, whether in some instances they had not been administered with too much leniency. On this part of the question, he could not help observing, that one means of remedying the evil of the increase of crimes would be to take fare that the punishments short of death were strictly, enforced. He was sorry to say, that in consequence of unavoidable circumstances, the punishment of transportation had lost many of its salutary terrors. The number of persons liable to transportation had so greatly increased within the last seven years, that when they arrived at the place of their destination, it was difficult to find the means of classifying or properly disposing of them. In the hulks, however, a classification had taken place, religious instruction was administered, and constant and regular labour performed. A regulation had also, within the last three years been adopted, which had proved of the greatest advantage, with reference to the behaviour of the convicts. It had been thought proper to discharge those who behaved in an exemplary manner, upon certificates to that effect. The instances were few in which the persons so recommended were not pardoned, and he was happy to say, that the instances were also few in which the persons who had experienced that favour were found to return to their former situation. He should not enter into the question of the propriety of confining convicts in hulks. That system had been resorted to on the loss of our American colonies; and whether, it was right or wrong originally, it was certain that it was now greatly improved: this, the returns on their lord ships table would show. There was another branch, of the subject—imprisonment in gaols for offences; which, from the reports of the magistrates in difference parts of the country, had ceased to answer the great purpose of punishment, namely, the prevention of crimes. Those, who attributed, the increase of crimes to the state of the prisons were generally of opinion, that the object; of making imprisonment effectual in this respect, would be attained by a reform of the gaols. It

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certainly ought to be their lordships aim to make such regulations, that those who entered a gaol might not become more corrupt than before; but, on the contrary, that they should leave it improved in their habits and morals. He must, however, at the same time contend, that comfort and classification were not the sole objects to which their lordships ought to look. Imprisonment, to produce any good effect, must preserve a penal character. If a person who had been guilty of an offence left his prison with his mind improved, it was right that he should also carry with him a painful recollection of the punishment to which he had rendered himself liable. It was not fit that he should have to give to his neighbours, and those with whom he might afterwards associate, such an account of the situation in which he had been placed, as would diminish the salutary terror of the punishment of imprisonment. While looking to the communication of religious instruction, and the improvement of morals, their lordships would always bear in mind that prisons ought to be instruments of punishment. He did not mean to say that much might not be done by a good system of prison discipline, and that due attention ought not to be directed to that important object; but it would be found that there were many local prisons, the abuses of which depended on circumstances which could not be corrected without great labour and expense. He wished to go into the inquiry with a full conviction of rendering the investigation useful. On that ground he wished to call their lordships attention to the real causes of the increase of crimes. The information fetid on the table most form the basis of the inquiry. The evil was one which called upon their lordships to apply their utmost labours to remove. We might be a great, a rich, and a powerful nation; but how could we expect these blessings to continue, if we did mot remove those causes of crimes which were calculated to underline our greatness. However high we might hold our heads, we ought never to forget that the only true foundation of national prosperity was, a religious and moral people. Under these impressions he should move, "That- a select committee be appointed to consider of the papers presented on the 19th and 23rd of the present month;, relative to the state of the gaols prisons, and penitentiary houses in the United Kingdom."
The Marquis of Lansdownesaid, he had heard the speech of the noble viscount with great satisfaction, and was glad he had taken up the subject. It was with much satisfaction he found, that the object which he had to view, when he first addressed their lordships on the subject, came now recommended to them by greater authority. He must, however, observe, that the nature of the inquiry proposed by the noble viscount greatly exceeded, in magnitude and extent, that which he meant to propose. The noble viscount's motion referred all the papers on the table, relating not timely to prisons, but to the increase of crimes, to the committee. In one limited sense this latter part of the inquiry would be of advantage, in enabling their lordships to ascertain how far the state of the prisons was adequate to the increase of offences; but to go into all the causes of crimes, would be an inquiry of too large a description to lead to any speedy of practical result. The noble viscount had adverted to persons who, he said, supposed that the state of prisons was the only cause of the increase of crimes. Who those persons were, he was at a loss to know. The only opinion he had ever heard held on the subject was, not that the state of prisons was the only cause, but that it was a great accessory and accelerating cause of this evil, it was because the other causes require? too deep a consideration that he objected to going into that part of the inquiry. It would be better were their lordships to confine themselves to a cause which they could reasonably hope to remove. Unless the committee received a far larger instruction than appeared in the reference of the noble viscount, it would be impossible for them to investigate all the causes of the increase of crimes; and if they did obtain sufficient authority, the inquiry would be too tedious to produce that prompt remedy which the case required and which, by confirming their inquiry, they might speedily apply. If they were to go into the consideration of the criminal law, there were about seven hundred and fifty acts' which they would have to examine. They would have to inquire how far these laws were consistent with their object; how far many of them were inconsistent with each other; and how far they might be found capable of carrying with them the feelings and opinion of the public. They would have to

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enter into speculations on the effect of the criminal laws which had engaged the attention of the ablest authors and the greatest legislators. How far it was advisable for a committee on the state of prisons to take up this wide, but certainly unimportant inquiry, he left for their lordships consideration. He confessed, for his own part, that if their inquiry was persisted in, he roust go into the committee with little more than the hope of obtaining, in some few respects, a more uniform rule than at present existed for the management of prisons. It was possible that the committee might be the means of, establishing an equal and impartial rule of imprisonment. He did not say this, from a feeling that any intentional partiality was at present manifested. The sentences of the judges might be in all similar cases the same, and the intention of the magistrates to see them strictly executed most sincere; yet, from the nature of local jurisdictions, it was impossible but that the most glaring inequalities would take place in the punishment of imprisonment. Another important object which he thought might be accomplished, was the laying down a distinct rule respecting the treatment of prisoners before and after conviction. The noble viscount had told their lord-ships, that in any regulations for the government of gaols they ought not to lose sight of the penal character of imprisonment; but it surely must be the greatest injustice when that penal character was allowed to commence before conviction. There ought, therefore, to be one system of imprisonment for persons charged with offences, and another for those found guilty; and the latter should besides be made subject to some regular plan of classification. Another advantage which might be hoped for from the committee, if its labours were confined to really practicable objects, would be the compelling gaols of local jurisdiction to adopt the general prison discipline, or, where that could not be done, to transfer their prisoners to the nearest county gaol. Lastly, to devise the means, of bringing the state of the prisons annually before parliament and the country, might be found an object worthy of the attention of the committee. Above, all, it might, be found practicable to effect the establishment of some general system of labour, which might be made, we means of supporting the expense of the gaols, as well as of
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reforming the prisoners. To show the beneficial effects of a system of, proper classification and labour, it was only necessary to quote an instance mentioned in a very excellent pamphlet written by a highly respectable individual, Mr. Gurney of Norwich, who had recently visited the prisons in the North of England and in Scotland. The instance he alluded to related to Manchester and Glasgow, the population of both which was nearly of a similar character. It appeared that with reference to the prison at Glasgow, where an excellent system of classification and labour was acted upon, of those who quitted the prison not more than one third returned on fresh charges, whilst at Manchester, where a system of that description was not acted upon, the proportion who returned to the prison amounted to two-thirds of those who quitted it, thus making a difference of one third in favour of the system of classification and labour. It was but fair, however, to add, that no exertions had been spared by the magistrates of Manchester to remedy the defects in their prison, and that they were adopting measures for the purpose of, adapting the system of the prison to the view of reforming its inmates. As he had no intention of opposing the motion, he should not take up the time of their lordships, but merely observe, that every consideration of duty towards the population (if he might use the term) of our prisons, so as to render them useful members of society, and still more every consideration of duty to society in general, called upon their lordships to enter into the examination of this subject, with the view of establishing some system: of prison discipline, which should be rendered as effective as possible, for the purposes of the reformation of the inmates of prisons. With regard to local jurisdictions, he thought that if they were unable in any, case to bear the expense of sufficiently altering their prisons, some regulations should be introduced to send the prisoners from such local jurisdictions to the county-prisons, the former paying the expense of their maintenance.
The motion was then agreed to.

COTTON FACTORIES.
Lord Kenyonsaid, that in rising to propose the appointment of the committee which, en a former occasion, he had postponed, from a consideration of the thinness of the House, he was glad to see a greater num-

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ber of noble lords present than had on that occasion attended. The question now to be considered was one of the greatest importance. No less than 50,000 individuals were interested in its decision in Manchester and its neighbourhood. One third of these persons were below sixteen years of age, and consequently were unable to do any thing for their own protections The noble lord said he had made inquiries, since this subject was last before the House, into the improvements which were then said to be taking place without legislative interference. It had then been stated, that the master spinners were willing to diminish the hours of labour of their own accord. This he had found was not correct generally. Some had indeed reduced the hours of labour at Stockport, as he had heard from the chairman of the meeting of masters in Lancashire; bin others not concurring, the former had been obliged to see their object defeated. At Bolton the hours had been shortened, but in Lancashire not a fourth of the factories had made any change, more than three-fourths of them working the children fourteen hours and a-half a-day. With respect to the heat to which these children were exposed, the House would judge of the injury which it must occasion to their health, when he told them, on the report of a magistrate who had particularly examined the factories, that it usually ran between 76 and 80 degrees of Fahrenheit, and sometimes reached to 85. It would be for noble lords to consider whether such a state of things did not call for inquiry and regulation. The children could not be considered as free labourers; for at the early age at which they entered the factories, they could not be their own masters, nor yet could they be protected by the principles of the common law, against the severity of their misters, on account of the similarity- between their situation and that of free labourers, in their not being bound for any definite period. Nothing but a legislative enactment could afford them any effectual protection. The noble lord denied that the agitation of the question, involved in the bill of last year, had any connexion with the disturbances at Manchester last autumn. He then went into a history of the act of 1802, and the bill of last session; and contended, that there were sufficient grounds for inquiry, if not for authorizing a measure of regulation. He moved, therefore, That a committee
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be appointed to inquire into the state and condition of children employed in the, cotton factories, and report thereon to the House.
The Lord Chancellorexplained what he meant on a former occasion, by saying, that if the children were treated with the cruelty described by the petitioners, they might apply for the protection of the common law. He had not argued against the motion of the noble lord, but had merely, stated, that the evils complained of, if they existed to the extent described, came? under the provisions of the common law; and that those who inflicted them, ought to be informed that they were exposing themselves to the punishment Which it prescribed for such cases of Cruelty. He gave no opinion then on the necessity of inquiry, but merely that the offence of overworking children was one indictable at common law. He saw no reason Why the master cotton manufacturers and the' master chimney-sweepers should have different principles applied to them than were applied to other trades. A general law ought to be passed, if necessary, for the regulation of manufacturers of all' kinds; but it might happen that a particular law, applicable only to children in one trade, might expose them to greater evils than those from which it was intended to protect them. In a country paper he had seen a feeling description of the hardships to which climbing-boys were subjected; but there was no pity expressed for boys compelled to descend into coalpits at three or four o'clock in the morning.
The Earl of Rosslynentered into a detailed examination of the question, and argued with great force against the motion, expressing a hope that, though the proposition of the noble mover were adopted, the measure which he expected to ground upon it would be resisted. The prayer of the petitions now on the table was not limited to the regulation of the labour of children, but included that of adults. He asked, what would be the consequence of interfering with labour in other cases, so as to fix the rate of wages —which, in fact, a limitation of the hours of labour would amount to. The proposed inquiry, if it took place, should be general. He objected to the motion; but so far from considering himself an enemy of the children who were the objects of the proposed inquiry, he reckoned himself their friend; as they were improved in health, number, and comfort by the free disposal

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of their labour. If their hours, of working were reduced, their wages must likewise be reduced, and then they might be exposed to the hardships of want. Two sets of, children would be employed to do the labour of one, and the half of their present wages could thus only be allowed them.
The Bishop of Chesterargued warmly and eloquently in support of the motion. Urged, he said, by a regard for the temporal as well as spiritual concerns of a great body of people in his diocese, he had, since the agitation of the question last year, made it a point to visit all the cotton factories within his reach, and be was satisfied that the length of time which the children were obliged to labour, was not only injurious to their health, but destructive to their lives. The right rev. prelate entered feelingly into a discussion, of the objections brought forward against the bill of last session.
Earl Grosvenorsaid, that if their lordship agreed to the motion, they would do an act fatal to the best interests of the country. It would be an act of the greatest, inhumanity to those children whose interests they wished to protect. He was most anxious that they should not interfere with the great principle of free labour. If they consented to pass, this measure, declaring that the children should not work. beyond a certain time, it would be expected that the hours of labour should be reduced, and that the wages should not be diminished. Most of the persons employed in these factories were children. Two-thirds were children under, the age of 16; five-sixths were children under the age of 20, With regard to the law on this subject, the learned lord on the woolsack had said, that by the common law, no man could treat children with cruelty. The right rev. prelate declared, that this might be true, in theory. Now, he must say, that if the law did not reach the case it was the wish of the petitioners that it should be made to extend to it. They merely desired that their case should be fully understood. He was convinced that generally speaking, the limitation of hours might be effected without the interference of the legislature, and therefore it would be highly impolitic and, dangerous to legislate on the subject of free labour.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that this was no question of free labour. It was preposterous to take of these poor children as free agents. If their lordships adopted
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this measure, they would not introduce any new principle into their statute-book but would, merely make that effectual by provision, which was now ineffectual for the want of provisions They had hear those who objected to the measure; and they ought now to hear those who supported the principles on which it was founded.
The Earl of Lauderdalesaid, that in every part of the country where cotton factories were established, parents were anxious to send their young children to them, under the idea that they were better taken care of than in any other situation. Sir Robert Peel had never thought of this measure till Mr. Owen had recommended it to him, and sir Robert was much better qualified to judge of its merits than any other person. Upon the whole, he war decidedly, hostile to the motion; and he should therefore move, by way of amendment that there be inserted the words, "silk, hardware, and other manufactures, and also to inquire into the laws respecting the same, and to report their opinion thereupon to the House."
Lord Hollandsaid, that their lordships had heard one party, and they should now hear the other. "Audi alteram partem" should be written in golden letters not only in every court of judicature but on the walls of every legislative body. In the last session their lordships had received a bill from the Commons, and by reading it a second time, they had admitted that there was primâ facie evidence to sanction the measure. It was admitted that the common law was not sufficient, in as much as it provided no redress for this parties. In, 1802, the law was not confined to apprentices 5 it appointed inspectors to inquire into the subject, and therefore the doctrine of non-interference must fall to the ground.
The question was then put on the amendments and their lordships divided Contents 6; Not-contents, 19. The original question was then put, and carried