Lords Sitting of 19 February 1819

STATE OF PRISONS.
The Marquis of Lansdowne The Marquis of Lansdowne, adverting to the motion made by him towards the close of the last session, and agreed to by the House, for papers respecting the State of the Prisons, and also to the intimation of the noble viscount opposite, of his intention to move for a committee to consider the state of the prisons, wished to know when the papers alluded to were likely to be laid before the House, and on what day the noble viscount meant to move for the committee? He did not wish, with regard to this subject, to take the question out of the hands of the Prince Regent's government, nor indeed, in consequence of his attendance in the committee, on the bank restriction, had he time properly to attend to it, but should the noble viscount not name an early period for moving the appointment of a committee,
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he should feel it his duty to call the attention of the House to the subject.
Lord Sidmouthsaid, he held in his hand an account connected with the subject to which the noble marquis referred, and on Monday intended to lay on the table further accounts, which would constitute the greater part of the returns ordered on the motion of the noble marquis. Their lordships would recollect, that the motion of the noble marquis was for the prison returns until the end of the year 1818, and these, as he had already informed the House, could not be expected to be made up until a considerable time after the meeting of parliament, most of the returns for England were made up, but they were not quite complete. The major part for Scotland had also been made, but very few had been received from Ireland. He should on Monday lay all the returns made on the table, and would on Thursday next move, that they be referred to a committee.
The Marquis of Lansdownesaid, that the motion he made last session had for its object not only to obtain returns from all the prisons under the control of sheriff's, but all prisons in the country of every description. He had some apprehension, from the information he had received, that returns had not been made from prisons under local jurisdiction.
Lord Sidmouthwas not aware of the cases to which the noble marquis alluded, but if it should be found that the returns were not made in the spirit of the order of the House, it would be for their lordships to see that such a neglect was promptly corrected. For his own part, he could assure their lordships, that he would do every thing in his power to attain full and accurate returns, with as much expedition as was practicable.

SLAVE TRADE.
The Marquis of Lansdowne, in submitting to their lordships the motion of which he had given notice, felt that it would not be necessary for him to advert to the papers presented by the noble secretary of state, relative to the conventions concluded at Aix-la-Chapelle with the principal powers of the continent. He would only observe, that after looking at these papers, and seeing the little prospect they afforded of any effectual assistance from those powers towards the complete abolition of the Slave-trade, it was the more incumbent on their lordships not to suffer the advan-

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tages already possessed by the country, in the treaties concluded with Spain, Portugal, and the Netherlands, on the Subject of the Slave-trade, to be thrown away. It was for this reason he had resolved to call their lordships attention to these treaties, which had been obtained by great sacrifices; but, great as the sacrifices were, he should never lament that they had been made, if the stipulations entered into were strictly enforced. Their lordships would recollect, that by conventions concluded in 1817 with Spain and Portugal, it was agreed, that after a definite period from the exchange of the ratifications, which period of exchange was fixed for Portugal at four months, and for Spain at two, a mixed commission should be sent out to superintend the execution of the treaties with respect to the Slave-trade north of the line. The period within which the appointment of the commissioners, and the commencement of their duties, were to take place, was one year from the date of the exchange of the ratifications. It was to be expected, that no time would have been lost on the part of the British government in appointing this commission, and in sending out a naval force competent to secure the full execution of the treaties. It appeared, however, that no anxiety for the speedy fulfilment of these important objects had been manifested. The mixed commission, it was said, bad been appointed; but at what period did the appointment take place? And as to the sending out of the commissioners, that was a proceeding with respect to which their lordships had yet to learn that any steps had been taken. This fact, however, was well known—that last year, when the treaties with Spain and Portugal ought to have been carried into full effect, in autumn, when the period of one year from the exchange of the ratifications had expired, the Spanish Slave-trade on the coast of Africa, north of the line, and in the latitude of the Cape de Verd islands, was carried on with the greatest activity. In December last, representations had been made on this subject to the noble lord at the head of the Admiralty. The answer given by that noble lord, as he had been informed, was, that no vessels could then be seat out to the coast of Africa, to enforce the stipulations of the treaties, because no instructions had then been issued for the guidance of the commanders of his majesty's ships in the execution of
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that duty. Whether any instructions bad since been issued, he did not know; but seeing that by the letter of the treaties themselves, they might have been carried into complete execution within a year from the exchange of the ratifications, it did appear most extraordinary, that that year should be allowed to expire without any vessels being sent out to check this atrocious commerce, known to be carried on with renewed vigour and activity on the African coast, and without any instructions being given to enable the commanders of British ships of war to perform with confidence, their duty, in the enforcement of the stipulations of treaties, which, as he had already observed, had been dearly purchased by the country. The noble marquis concluded by moving an address to the Prince Regent, for copies of the instructions to the members of the mixed commission, appointed under the commissions of the 28th July, and 29th September 1817, and 4th May, 1818; and also copies of the instructions under similar dates, issued to the commanders of his majesty's ships, to carry into effect the treaties concluded with Spain and Portugal relative to the Slave Trade.
Lord Melville Lord Melville, having no intention to resist the production of the information called for by the noble marquis, should trouble their, lordships with only a few words in explanation. The ratifications of the Portuguese treaty were not exchanged until February last: those of the treaty with Spain had been exchanged in September 1817. The noble marquis must be aware, that these treaties could not be laid before parliament until they were ratified; and that until they had received the sanction of parliament, and acts had been passed in conformity with their stipulation, it was impossible to take any steps for carrying them into effect. The act which sanctioned the measures necessary to be taken for carrying the treaties into effect, did not pass until the month of June, and consequently it was not in the power of his majesty's government to issue any instructions, under the stipulations of these treaties, for the regulation of the commanders of his majesty's ships, until after that period. As soon as the act was passed, a noble friend of his, not a member of that House, did every thing in his power to hasten the appointment of the commissioners; but several gentlemen to whom that appointment was offered,

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had declined to accept it, and a very considerable time had elapsed before suitable persons could be found to fill the situation. The necessary instructions to the commanders of his majesty's ships could not with propriety be issued, until after the appointment of the commissioners. It was obvious that if instructions under the treaties had been issued to ships of war, vessels might have been captured, though there would have been no jurisdiction to which the question of the legality of the seizure could have been referred. This was a difficulty which it was necessary to avoid. Certain general instructions were issued to the commanders of British ships of war, but particular instructions, conformable to the letter of the treaties, it was evidently impossible to give, until after the formation of the commission. Their lordships would also recollect, that part of this measure depended, not on his majesty's government, but on foreign powers; for until these powers sent out their commissioners, ours could have no authority to act. He had reason to believe, however, that no time would be lost in the formation of the mixed commissions. Our commissioner would be speedily sent out, and he could assure their lordships that every endeavour would be made to hasten the same measure on the part of other powers.
Lord Hollanddeclared, that no person could be more disposed than he was, to pay due respect to any statement made by a noble lord in that House; but, notwithstanding the anxiety now attributed to his majesty's ministers, to confine themselves within the limits which the law imposed, and giving them full credit for the circumspection with which they had acted in the present case, he could not help thinking, that what had fallen from the noble viscount, instead of tending to lull their lordships into a confident tranquillity, with respect to the conduct of ministers, was calculated to excite all their vigilance, for the purpose of compelling those ministers to carry the treaties in question fully and fairly into effect. The noble viscount had said, that it was impossible to take any steps under the treaties, until they were sanctioned by parliament, and an act on the subject had passed; but as ministers knew the state in which the question stood with respect to the treaties, it would have been well had they taken the trouble, early in the last session, to have explained the neces-
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sity of passing an act on the subject without delay. It was certain, that the ratification of Spain, at least, had then been received. But the hands of his majesty's ministers were, it seemed, tied up at that time, for want of an act of parliament; and when they at length found them released, a new difficulty arose in the selection of the commissioners. If, however, this want of a law prevented these scrupulous ministers from appointing commissioners, it surely did not prevent them from looking out for them. With the influence they possessed, they might surely have placed some reliance on the power of their eloquence to persuade parliament to adopt so reasonable a measure as an act for the appointment of commissioners according to the terms of the treaties. In full confidence, as they must have been, that the event would be such as had taken place, why did they not make inquiry for the proper persons to be appointed commissioners? The noble viscount had laid considerable stress on the necessity of the other powers sending out their commissioners before the commissions could be authorized to act, but the obvious way to prevent delay in that respect would have been to take care to be ready ourselves: we should then have been in a situation to insist on the prompt execution of the treaty on the part of these powers. When he recollected all that had passed respecting the abolition of the African Slave-trade, he could not help suspecting much indifference in his majesty's ministers, with regard to the measures necessary to complete that great object—in difference to an extent, which imposed on their lordships and the other House of Parliament the strictest vigilance in watching the measures of these ministers. During the many months which had been allowed to pass away without any thing being done towards the execution of the treaties, thousands of unfortunate beings had been inhumanly torn from the coast of Africa, and placed in a state of the greatest misery: and what was worst of all, the evil habits of this revolting traffic, had thus been allowed to continue, and new malignity had been given to their immoral effects. Surely these considerations, if they did not prove a culpable neglect, showed at least such an indifference to this object, on the part of ministers, as would induce their lordships to look carefully at their conduct during the remainder of the session.
The Earl of Liverpoolthought it necessary to Say a few words, in consequence of what had fallen from the noble lord opposite. As to the appointment of commissioners, their lordships would not fail to see that the selection of persons for that situation must have depended on the remuneration which was to be allowed to them. Now, until the salary was fixed by act of parliament, it was impossible to say, with any precision, what it would be, and therefore no engagement could have been previously made. He could assure their lordships that no time had been lost. After the passing of the act, every effort had been made to appoint the commissioners, but he never knew an instance of so much difficulty in finding proper individuals to fill the situation. The act of parliament allowed superannuation; and some individuals, before they accepted the appointment, stipulated for that advantage after a period of service so short, that nothing could have induced him to approve the agreement, but the difficulty of finding persons calculated to execute the duties of the situation. From what had been said, their lordships would perceive, that no time had been lost in appointing the commission; and he could assure them, that none would be lost in carrying the act fully into execution.
The Marquis of Lansdowneinsisted that ministers ought to have proceeded sooner to the appointment of the commissioners, as they must have been aware that parliament would not have refused to sanction the treaty. There was no difficulty with regard to the salaries, for there were hundreds of instances in which ministers had made eventual engagements on an understanding of what a salary was to be. In many cases of the commissions, the names of the commissioners and their salaries were well known before the bill for appointing them was introduced into parliament.
The motion was then agreed to.