Lord Kenyonpresented a petition from certain persons concerned in the cotton factories at Stock-port, praying that a bill similar to that proposed last session, for limiting the hours of the labour of children, might be introduced and passed.
The Earl of Lauderdalesaid, he had been informed, that many of the individuals who had signed petitions for the object prayed for by this, had been persuaded so to do, in consequence of being told that if the bill passed they would get more money for their labour, and have to work fewer hours than they now did.
Lord Kenyansaid, he had no reason to suppose that any persons had signed this petition under the impression described by the noble earl. He had heard assertions of undue means having been resorted to for obtaining signatures, but he was not aware of any false representations having been employed to procure signatures to the petitions he presented, and regarded the assertions to that effect as unfounded. He had now to present a petition from persons of sixteen years of age and upwards, employed in the cotton manufactories of Holywell, in Flintshire. The object of this petition was the same as the last.
The Earl of Lauderdalewished to state, with respect to this petition, some facts which might, if their lordships pleased, be supported by affidavits. He was informed that a person from Stockport had arrived at Holywell, bringing with him a letter to some of the people employed there, and a copy of a petition, in terms similar to that presented, for them to sign: this stranger assembled the people in a public-house, and informed them that the petition was for a law which would 340 greatly benefit them if it should pass, as they would then have to labour less, and yet would be paid more wages than they now received. The petition was stated to be from persons of sixteen years of age and upwards, but he was assured that it had been signed by at least one hundred boys and girls under that age. The proceeding had been a source of great vexation in the neighbourhood. Before this stranger appeared, the people in the works were contented and happy, but after this transaction they became troublesome and refractory.
Lord Kenyanthought the noble earl must have been deceived by the information he had received on this subject. The representations of the transaction which had been made to himself, from what he considered good authority, were of a very different nature.
The Bishop of Chesterpresented a petition, signed by the clergy of the established church, the dissenting clergy, medical persons, manufacturers, shopkeepers, and other inhabitants of Bolton-le-Moors, to the number of 5,226, praying, like the preceding petitions, for the limitation of the labour of children.
The Earl of Lauderdalecould not help reminding their lordships, who might be disposed to lay some stress on the circumstance of the petitions being signed by medical persons, of what had occurred last session, with regard to petitions similarly signed, Some of the medical persons who had signed the petitions, on being examined before the committee of last session, had declared, that on inspecting the manufactories they found the children employed in them, generally speaking, in better health than was usual for children of their age. They were of course asked what had induced them to sign the petitions. They answered, that they had been induced to sign them by the representations of friends; but that now, since they had had the opportunity of a personal examination of the children, they would sign no more. This fact accounted for the smaller number of such signatures which were now procured.
The Bishop of Chestersaid, it might be true that some medical persons had signed the former petitions inconsiderately, but he had reason to believe that such was not the case with those who had signed the petition he now presented.
The Earl of Lauderdalerestated what had passed before the committee last 341 session, and observed, that from what the right rev. prelate now stated, he must suppose that he had examined the medical men whose signatures were attached to the petition, and had found that they had inspected the factories.
The Bishop of Chestersaid, he had been for some time at Bolton-le-Moors. He then took occasion to inquire into the character of the medical persons whose names were attached to the petition, and was perfectly satisfied with the grounds on which they had formed their opinion respecting the effects of the employment in the factories on the health of the children. The right rev. prelate then presented a petition from persons of sixteen years and upwards, employed in the cotton factories at Bollington, in the county of Chester.
The Earl of Landerdalesaid, he wished to appeal once more to the consideration of the noble lord who was desirous of promoting this inquiry, in the hope that he would be induced to postpone it. The subject was one of the highest importance, since the object of the noble lord was, to alter those principles which had hitherto governed the application of labour in this commercial country. If the noble lord seriously felt all the importance of the question, he certainly would not urge it at a time when so few members were present, but would defer his motion until a period when it was likely he might find the house in a different state.
Lord Kenyonsaid, that having already, at the request of the noble earl, postponed the motion from Friday to this day, every noble lord who was desirous of attending might be supposed to be aware that the subject would be brought forward. If the House was thin on such an occasion, it was to be presumed that it arose from the supposition that no serious opposition would be made to the motion for appointing the committee. The case was one which, in his opinion, called for expedition, and therefore he could not agree to any longer delay. As what he had to propose was merely an inquiry, similar to that which had taken place last session at the request of the noble earl, he could see no reason for postponing the motion until there should be a more numerous attendance. The committee which was instituted last session, after the bill had undergone a second reading, had left the evidence in a very imperfect state. It was his wish, that the evidence should 342 be completed, and then the House would be able to judge of the justice and necessity of the measure he intended to propose. The only feasible objection started against proceeding with the inquiry forthwith was, that the noble earl would not be able to attend this committee. Knowing the influence which the noble earl had over the minds of others, he saw no reason to suppose that he could not, although absent himself, procure attention to his views, through the intervention of a friend. If the noble earl could not give his personal attendance in the committee, it would be some compensation that a body of evidence would be collected by its labours that would give him afterwards a more complete command of the question. There was another illustrious person (the duke of Sussex) who, he feared, would likewise be precluded from attending, as he had been last year, but whose absence, although to be regretted, would not create any delay. The noble earl on a previous night had alluded to disturbances which, in his opinion, the former agitation of the question had provoked, and had pointed out dangers which might attend its renewed discussion. These consequences he saw no reason to apprehend. By the inquiries of a committee, a body of evidence might be gained; and if, after this was laid before the house, neither duty to the individuals whose suffering it was intended to alleviate, nor regard to the welfare of the country, whose interests it was intended to promote, required the interference of parliament, the objects contemplated by the bill of last year might be finally abandoned. With respect to the evidence taken by the committee of last year, it ought to be recollected that it was all on one side. He had no doubt that the operation of that evidence, so far as it affected the bill brought in, might be rebutted by contrary evidence now obtained. No other change was last year intended than that which met the views of most humane and enlightened persons whose interests were not concerned, and which had been since carried into effect by some manufacturers, whose interests it might at first view seem to oppose. That change consisted in the limitation of the hours of labour for children, and a protection to those who, from constitutional infirmity, were unable to work the time prescribed for others. Since the subject had been last discussed in parliament, a determination had been mani- 343 fested by some of the most respectable manufacturers of Manchester to shorten the hours of labour. This fact, while it showed the justice of the principle on which the bill of last year had proceeded, afforded the strongest motive for passing it into a law; because, while no uniform enactment on the subject existed, benevolent persons, in their desire to conform to the dictates of humanity, were liable to have their views thwarted, and their example counteracted, by persons of opposite dispositions and character. He himself had, since last session, been in two cotton-mills, both belonging to most respectable individuals. The visit he made to one of them was at a favourable time of the year, but he still saw reason to convince him of the propriety of a bill to ameliorate the condition of the children, by limiting their hours of labour, and regulating the other circumstances that affected their health. In the other, the heat was so oppressive, that nothing but a sense of duty could have compelled him to remain in it, even for the short time required for its inspection; and yet, he was told by the persons there, that the door or the windows could not be opened without destroying their work. With regard to the principle involved in the bill, namely, that it would interfere between the master and those whom he employed, he could not help calling their lordships' attention to a similar measure that passed in 1802, where the principle of interference was recognized. The noble lord, after some further observations, moved for the appointment of a committee to inquire into the state of children employed in the cotton factories, with a view to the limitation of their hours of labour.
Earl Grosvenorsaid, he could not agree with the noble lord who made the motion, either in the principle of interference which he wished to establish, or in the force of the reasons which he had stated for the appointment of a committee. The noble lord had said, that it was right to appoint a committee this year, because a committee had been appointed last year; but he had not properly considered the difference of circumstances in the two periods. A committee had been appointed last year, because a bill came up from the other House, which had met there with a full discussion, but of which their lordships were ignorant; and then the question was, ought it to pass into a law without examination, or ought the House to 344 inquire before they gave their sanction to a measure of so much importance to the country, from the principles which it involved, and the interest it might effect? The case now was wholly different: the measure had been fully discussed, and there was no necessity for the immediate inquiries of a committee, because there was no bill pending which its enquiries could effect. Leaving the question of the committee, he would make some observations on the other parts of the noble mover's speech. It was with great reluctance that he so expressed himself; but he was bound to say, and he could say it on the most mature conviction, that he could not go all the lengths of the noble lord. This was a question of the greatest national importance, and ought not to become the subject of a petty vexatious species of legislation. Nobody could go farther than he would in maintaining the maxim of our ancestors, that the fullest attention ought to be paid to the petitions of the people as against the government, and that supplies ought not to be granted till their grievances were redressed; but the case here was widely different: here we did not hear the complaints and grievances of the subject against the government, but of one part of the people against the other. The question was, therefore, one of great delicacy, and ought to be approached with the most scrupulous caution, in order that it might not be decided on principles which, while they seemed to favour the interests of one class, were detrimental in their operation to the welfare of all. The dissimilarity between apprentices to free labourers, rendered the case of the former, as brought forward by the noble lord, quite inapplicable to the present question. There was, in fact, no analogy between the situation of an apprentice, as regulated by law, and that of a free labourer, under no restriction but that of his own will; and unless in the cotton factories, a system of gross inhumanity, cruelty, and oppression could be made out against the masters, no reason could be urged why parliament should proceed to legislate. If, then, no new law was required, nothing could be more dangerous than to agitate the question, and to raise hopes which could not be realized. Nothing appeared to him more calculated to produce scenes of disturbance similar to those which agitated Manchester last Summer, than the renewal of those discussions which took place last 345 session. On this account, he was against the appointment of the proposed committee at the present moment. He had believed last year that there was more in-humanity in the treatment of children in the cotton factories, and of course a greater call for the interference of parliament, than there really existed. The noble mover had acknowledged an improvement from the very agitation of the question; and had stated, that in some cases the manufacturers had voluntarily adopted the most important regulations of the bill of last year. If this was the case, why not legislate farther: if what parliament proposed to enforce had been done spontaneously, why interfere with statutory enactments? At any rate, the legislature ought to wait to try the effect of the lessons inculcated in the discussions of last year. If the most respectable manufacturers reduced the hours of children's labour at the suggestion of their own humane minds, the majority would soon follow their example, and the object would be accomplished more effectually and more easily than by a legislative enactment. The noble lord had complained of the injurious effects of heat in cotton factories; but it was to be recollected that a sensibility to a high temperature was only relative. He (lord Grosvenor) had heard of many overseers who wished to ventilate the mills, but were prevented from doing so by requests and remonstrances on the part of the children who worked in them, and their parents. He admitted that this employment was not so healthy as that of those engaged in agriculture, but he doubted whether it could be improved by any positive regulations in which their employers did not think it their interest to concur. At any rate, the house ought to wait till the effect of a voluntary effort should be tried. If the hours of labour should be reduced, and the other provisions of last year's bill completed, there would be no necessity for farther measures. If no amelioration took place, it would be time enough to legislate after the experiment of a short delay had been tried. The noble earl concluded by proposing the adjournment of the question, to this day six weeks.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that this was indeed a very important subject, and he could not imagine either why a greater number of noble lords had not attended, or why those who were present had thought proper to withdraw. There 346 could be no doubt that if children were by over work or harsh usage injured in their health, or distorted in their limbs, as had been attributed to the severe labour of cotton factories, their parents or masters were punishable at common law for the offence, and he had hoped that the debate would have turned upon this point, and closed with the adoption of some specific measure for the enforcement of what he would call the prohibitions of the common law. A petition had been presented that evening by a rev. prelate, which he trusted he might without offence be permitted to call a very dangerous petition, for it required the interference of parliament, not for the regulation of children only, but of adults, by which means the freedom of labour would, in his mind, be essentially affected. This was dangerous ground, and he thought it would be well to postpone the consideration of it until there was a fuller attendance. If the question were pressed, he should not give a vote, but he should be pleased, if the noble earl were to change his six weeks, to a fortnight.
The Earl of Lauderdaleproposed an adjournment of a fortnight. He rose, he said, to say a few words about the protection given to labourers by the law of the land. It appeared on the examination of witnesses before the committee of last year, that two factories were discovered so dirty and unhealthy, that he, with all his desire that compacts between the employer and the labourer should be free, thought that they ought to be put down. He had asked their names; then he had asked if the magistrates had not exerted, in correcting them, the powers given by sir Robert Peel's bill; but he was told that there had been no interference. Was it not, therefore, more necessary to pass an act to compel magistrates to do their duty, than to enact new laws, which, like that to which he alluded, might be allowed to remain inoperative? He was convinced that no good could be gained by the agitation of the question, while much evil might result from the false expectations which renewed discussion would excite. These false expectations, which could never be realized, were the true cause of the disturbances which disgraced Manchester last Summer. In support of this, the noble earl read an extract from the 347 evidence taken before the committee on the cotton-bill, last year, in which a Mr. Booth stated, that he had delivered to the Manchester Chronicle, and paid fifteen guineas for the insertion of an article which advocated the principle of the bill, in limiting the hours of labour as equivalent to a higher rate of wages. The noble earl concluded by asking for delay, that the manufacturers might cool a little before the further agitation of the question.
The Bishop of Chesterdid not see any reason for thinking that on a future occasion there would be a fuller attendance of members. A noble earl had argued, that there existed a connexion between the disturbances in Manchester, during last Summer, and the exertions of the petitioners; but he could assure him that there was not the least foundation for such an opinion. The imputations thrown on the petitioners were, therefore, entirely groundless. They had conducted themselves with the most perfect prudence, with the most complete submission to the laws, and in the most inoffensive manner. He had himself been asked by them, whether he would advise meetings to be called at Manchester, Bolton-le-Moors, and Stockport, for the purpose of petitioning parliament, and he advised them to call no such meetings. He warned them of the dangers that might ensue, and gave it as his opinion, that no advantage could result from such a measure. Accordingly, no meeting was called at any of those places, nor had the petitioners formed the least connexion with those who had assembled in a more riotous manner. With regard to this last fact, he did not rest merely on the circumstance he had mentioned, or the casual observation of even people well informed. Some of the rioters of Stockport were tried at Chester, and he himself had attended, for the express purpose of ascertaining whether any connexion like that stated by the noble earl really existed, and he had left the court with the conviction that there was no ground for the charge. He held in his hand an address from the petitioners, declaring that they held in abhorrence the disturbances that had disgraced Manchester and its neighbourhood last Summer. He could not help remarking, that the reason which the noble earl gave for refusing to proceed farther, was in his mind a good reason for hastening the enactment of the law. Much good had already 348 been done by parliamentary interference; and that afforded a strong argument why parliament should go on to complete its work.
§ The motion was then postponed to this day fortnight.