Lords Sitting of 5 February 1819

THE PRINCE REGENT'S MESSAGE RESPECTING HER LATE MAJESTY'S ESTABLISHMENT.
The order of the day being read,
The Earl of Liverpoolrose to move an humble address to his royal highness the Prince Regent, thanking him for his most gracious message; in doing which he should briefly state the nature and character of the particular fund to which the message referred, and which, by the lamented demise of her majesty, had now lapsed to the Prince Regent, for the general purposes of the civil list, and in what manner it was thought advisable to apply it. Their lordships were aware that 58,000 l. was the sum allotted out of the civil list to her late majesty, for the maintenance of her establishment. This sum did not fall in to the public on the demise of the queen; but in consequence of the late act for the distribution and arrangement of the civil list, it fell to be disposable by the Prince Regent, who might triply it in aid of other branches of the civil list. The branches to which it might be applied were those of the lord chamberlain, the lord steward, and the master of the horse. The only purpose to which his Royal Highness would have particularly wished to apply part of the sum lapsed, was one from which he was precluded, namely, that of continuing the salaries of the persons employed in her late majesty's establishment. This was an application which he could not make, in consequence of the limitation of the pension list, the utmost extent of which, as now fixed by law, was 90,000 l. Had it not been for this limitation, his Royal Highness would on this occasion, following the example of his predecessors, and particularly of the precedent established by the arrangement on the death of the consort of George 2nd, have granted pensions to all the servants of her late majesty. His Royal Highness had, however, thought fit to place the whole sum of 58,000 l. at the disposal of parliament, and only asked their lordships to do that out of justice to the servants of her late majesty's establishment which had been done in all former cases of the demise of the queen. The persons who possessed this strong claim to their lordships' consideration had most of them served her majesty for a long series of years; but when it was proposed to continue to them their salaries, their lordships would be greatly deceived were they to suppose that such a grant would leave these individuals in the same
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situation in which they stood before the decease of her majesty. In fact, they had the benefit of various advantages and allowances which were fully equal to their nominal salaries. It was estimated that 25,000 l. would be adequate to the amount of the salaries. Supposing, therefore, that their lordships should be disposed, as he had no doubt they would be, to grant that sum for the servants, there would then remain 33,000 l. immediately at the disposal of the public. In making this disposition of the sum which had hitherto been allotted to her majesty's separate maintenance, their lordships, he was sensible, would act consistently with their feelings towards the public and towards, individuals. They would not fail to be impressed with those sentiments which the act of his Royal Highness, in relinquishing all claim to this fund, and the justice he was so anxious to see done to those individuals who had claims on it for past services, were calculated to produce. It was not possible that any of their lordships could be disposed to resist an act which was in itself one of liberality and. justice, and which had been performed on all similar occasions; and under that conviction he should now move, that an humble address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, thanking his Royal Highness for his gracious communication, and assuring his Royal Highness, that their lordships would not fail to pay due attention to the claims recommended by his Royal Highness to their notice.
The Marquis of Lansdownesaid, he had no objection to offer to the general object of the address, and was willing to concur in it, on account of the practical application of the fund in question, which he fully approved. It was, therefore, with no spirit of quibbling that he should state an objection which occurred to him on the principle laid down in the message of the Prince Regent, and re-asserted in the address as moved by the noble earl. The message stated, that the 58,000 l. per annum allotted to the maintenance of the queen's establishment, had, in consequence of the demise of her majesty, become disposable by the Prince Regent to the purposes of the civil list. He felt less reluctance in stating his disagreement with the assertion thus made, as the proposed application of the money was one on which there could be no difference of opinion whatever. As to the power implied by the message, of

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the king or his ministers, to take one head of the civil list, when the reason of maintaining that expense no longer existed, and apply it to any other purposes of the civil list, he held it to be an assertion totally inconsistent with the spirit, if not with the letter, of the act for the regulation of the civil list, which was passed two or three years ago. Their lordships would recollect, that the civil list was so regulated, or meant to be so regulated, by the act to which he had alluded, as to remove every thing uncertain or fluctuating from that branch of the public service. In order to attain this object, every head was voted on estimate. The demands for the maintenance of her majesty and her servants formed part of the estimates on which the sums were voted: there appeared, therefore, no reason for saying, that a sum which had been appropriated to one branch of the civil list, should, in the case of the ground on which it was granted ceasing, become applicable to other branches. It was true that by the act, part of the sum allowed for one branch, if any part could be spared, might be applied to another branch; but the appropriation of the whole amount of one head of the civil list was a very different thing from the disposal of the economical savings of one branch to another which might require such aid. Let it be considered for a moment to what an extent this principle might be carried, and their lordships would perceive its mischievous consequences. It might with equal justice be asserted, that the allowances which had been granted to the various members of the royal family should fall to the disposal of the king and his ministers, on the death of the illustrious persons to whom the allowances had been granted. Their lordships, he thought, must be sensible, that the assertion contained in the message was inconsistent with the act of parliament. After consulting the act that morning, he confessed that be had some doubt whether it was directly contrary to its letter, but he was confident that it was hostile to its spirit and object. If, how ever, it should be found that the message was in this respect consistent with the letter of the act that ought to be a reason for their lordships altering it; but not for their concurring in the assertion of the message. With respect to the application of the 58,000 l., as proposed by the message, no person felt more strongly than he did the propriety of that application, He
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had hoped the noble earl would have given their lordships some information on the arrangements intended, with respect to another establishment in some measure connected with the present; but as the noble earl had not thought fit to do so, and as their lordships' attention was not called to it by the message, he should abstain from saying any thing on the subject. He was the more readily disposed to adopt this course, as he understood that the subject was before the other House; and he trusted that when the establishment had undergone the full consideration of the legislature, it would be placed in that state which would correspond with a due regard to the public interest and the dignity of the crown.
The Earl of Liverpoolconcurred in the hope which the noble marquis had just expressed. He had felt that he was not called upon to say any thing on the subject alluded to, as it was not referred to in the message. Their lordships must be aware, from the votes of the other House, that it was under consideration. When it came regularly before their lordships, he should feel it his duty to give such explanations as the occasion might appear to him to require. With regard to the question immediately under consideration, he was of opinion, that their lordships could have no hesitation in adopting the principle laid down in the message respecting the power of the Prince Regent in the disposal of the 58,000 l. The assertion in the message was supported by the legal opinions taken on the act, which made the savings of several branches of the civil list disposable for other branches. It was perfectly reasonable to infer, that the whole of the sum granted for a particular branch might be so disposable; and this inference was confirmed by the words of the act, which made an exception in. the case of ambassadors. There was no such exception made with respect to the queen's establishment, which, on her majesty's demise, was therefore disposeable by the Prince Regent to the purposes of the civil list. What the noble marquis had said with respect to the allowances voted to the other branches of the royal family, could form no argument in this case; for these allowances were granted out of the consolidated fund, with the express understanding, that the sums should revert to the public on the decease of the illustrious persons to whom they had been voted. Having stated the grounds on

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which the principle laid down in the message was supported by the act of parliament, he had to add that it never was his intention to take any unfair advantage of the state of the law. It appeared unquestionable, that whether the principle was right or wrong, the Prince Regent was, according to the act, entitled to the disposal of the sum hitherto applied to the Queen's establishment; but in advising the exercise of the prerogative, he had at the same time felt it to be his duty to advise that distribution of the 58,000 l. which was recommended in the message. He had therefore no doubt that their lordships would concur in the address which he had moved.
The address was then agreed to nem. diss.