EXCHEQUER BILLS BILL. (Hansard, 19 February 1818)

Earl Grosvenor
felt it his duty to say a few words before the bill should pass through the committee. He had hoped that their lordships would have heard something on the subject of economy in the Prince Regent's speech, but in that expectation the House and the country had been grievously disappointed. Not-withstanding this omission,' it was a notorious fact that the finances of the country were in a most deplorable state; for the income, though a boast had been made of the improvement of the revenue, did not cover the expenditure by many millions. In this situation it was reasonable to have hoped that ministers, if they neglected to bring, forward the subject on the meeting of parliament, would at least have done something at a very early part of the session, to encourage the expectation of their being disposed to resort to that system of reduction and economy which could alone avert the ruin that threatened the country. No indication of any such disposition had, however, been given; and now, after three years of peace, the country had still to endure a weight of unnecessary expenditure. He had formerly alluded to reductions which ought to be made, and was still of opinion that considerable savings might be effected in different branches of the public expenditure, and particularly in that of the army. If the army on the frontiers of France were recalled, a more economical arrangement with respect to the military force might be made. While in a state of peace, was it not most absurd to persist in maintaining an army of 100,000 men? Notwithstanding what had fallen from a noble earl with regard to the state of France, on the first day of the session, he could not agree with him as to the danger of withdrawing the army of occupation. He could not partake entirely in the view of that noble carl, and was rather inclined to believe that time had removed many of the objections which might have been urged against withdrawing the allied troops. He agreed with the noble earl in thinking, that the occupation of the throne of France by the Bourbon family was most favourable to the interests of Europe, as well as of France, provided they adhered to constitutional principles. This, he was persuaded, was felt to be the case, in that country; and though there might be different parlies there, and though he carried his opinion as to the supporting the present French government as far as he believed 516 that opinion ought to be carried, yet he could see no necessity why any part of the military force of this country should be maintained on the French frontiers. Whether Buonaparte was popular in France to the extent which had been stated, he could not pretend to determine; but however popular that person might be, he trusted that this country would not be so unjust and impolitic as to completely mix itself in the domestic affairs of another. To a certain degree he was ready to admit that interference might be a duty, but with domestic parties we had really nothing to do. Feeling and lamenting as he did the state of the finances of the country, he could not help expressing his surprise at finding a measure like the present in progress through their lordships House. That there should be thirty millions of exchequer bills afloat, in addition to the other circulating paper, was a very melancholy consideration. The serious importance of the measure would be appreciated when their lordships considered that the issue now proposed equalled any that had ever been made in this country during the late long and expensive war-It must be evident that this increased circulation of paper tended more and more to depreciate the regular coin of the realm, and to render more difficult, if not entirely to prevent the removal of that restriction on the payments of the Bank which all their lordships so seriously deplored. Impressed with these opinions, he could not suffer this important measure to go through the committee without calling their lordships attention to it.

The Earl of Liverpool
said, he did not wish to enter into any discussion on the questions respecting the army of occupation and the faintly of Bourbon, which the noble earl had started. With regard to the subject of finance, the noble earl had gone so far as to state, that the income of the country was many millions below the expenditure. He should only say, that when the accounts were fairly before the House, he should be prepared to meet the noble earl on this question. Then would be the proper time for any discussion which the noble earl might think, proper to bring forward; but he would then find that the opinion he now entertained was most erroneous. The noble lord had complained of the superabundance of exchequer bills; but if he inquired into the real state of the case, he would find that there was, upon the whole, a reduction, 517 and that the interest was very little more than 2 per cent. Another complaint of the noble earl was, that nothing had been done in the way of economy and reduction. On this subject, too, he was perfectly ready to meet the noble earl, when the proper time for discussion came. But the noble earl could not fail to know from the journals of the other House of parliament, that the peace establishment of the country had undergone the serious consideration of a committee in the course of the last session, and that measures were then taken for reducing the different departments of the public service to the lowest scale on which they could with propriety be placed. The noble earl, it appeared, thought those establishments still too great; and that might be a subject of inquiry when the question came regularly before their lordships; but it had nothing to do with it at present. The noble earl had said, that a saving might arise by withdrawing from the frontiers of France that part of the army of occupation which belonged to this country; but on what foundation did he rest that opinion? Could he show that the recall of cur army would be any saving whatever to the country? The view which the noble earl appeared to have formed of the expense of that army was totally erroneous; and however desirable saving might be, he must look for some other sources of economy than the reduction of a force by which little or no expense was incurred. With regard to the revenue, he assured the noble earl that it more than covered the expenditure.

Earl Grosvenor
expressed himself not satisfied with what had been done in the way of reduction, in consequence of the institution of a committee by the other House of parliament; and was of opinion, notwithstanding what had been said by the noble earl, that a considerable expense was incurred by this country in maintaining the army on the frontiers of France.

The Earl of Lauderdale
was surprised to hear what had fallen from the noble earl on the subject of the finances. Did he mean to say, that the revenue of this country was capable of covering the charges on the consolidated fund, and all the present expenditure?

The Earl of Liverpool
wished to be understood to say, that the whole revenue of the country, in which he included the sinking fund was more than sufficient to 518 cover all ths charges on the national debt, and all the other expenses of the government.

The Earl of Lauderdale
wished to remind the noble earl that the sinking-fund amounted to nearly fifteen millions. Was this then to be understood as the noble earl's proposition—that after deducting fifteen millions, this country possessed a revenue capable of covering the present expenditure, and paying the interest of the debt?

The Earl of Liverpool
said, he never intended to state any such thing. The noble earl could not suppose that he meant to assert that the country had an excess of revenue amounting to fifteen millions.

Lord King
maintained, that, in that case, the sinking-fund was merely nominal, and that no part of the debt was actually discharged by it, there being no excess of revenue over the expenditure.

The Earl of Liverpool
denied this conclusion, and contended, that, including the sinking-fund, there was an actual excess of revenue over expenditure, and that to the amount of that excess (upwards of two millions) there was an actual diminution of the aggregate amount of debt.