§ The Earl of Donoughmore moved, that the House be summoned for Friday, for the discussion of the Catholic question. Ordered.—Earl Fitzwilliam presented a petition from certain Catholics of the county of Warwick, and against the measure of the Veto. After the petition had been read, his lordship said, that though it was numerously signed, yet he had authority to state that many most respectable Catholics of the same counties did not concur in the propriety of thus petitioning the legislature.
443Lord Kenyonobserved, that it appeared there was a considerable difference of opinion among the Catholics themselvés, and it might be material to have this petition printed; and he moved that it be printed, together with the signatures.
§ Earl Greysaid, if he rightly understood the petition, it was to this effect—that the petitioners had heard that it was in the contemplation of the legislature to adopt the regulation called the Veto, with reference to the Catholics, of which regulation the petitioners highly disapproved.—Whence the petitioners received that information he did not know. There was no reason to believe that a bill of that kind was to come from the other House; and, as far as he knew, no such thing was in the contemplation of his noble friend who was to move the discussion of the Catholic claims on Friday. It had been observed, that there appeared to be a difference among the Catholics themselves, because some of them had come forward with this petition against the regulation of the Veto. His noble friend stated that he had received assurances from many most respectable Catholics of these two counties, that they did not concur in that petition. He was glad to hear it; and as he had for several sessions presented petitions from the general body of the Catholics, he might be permitted to say that they had always studiously refrained from dictating to or making conditions with the legislature, and had left the whole matter to the wisdom and discretion of parliament. That was the mode which he approved, and indeed the only mode in which it was proper for the petitioners to come forward; for, whatever might be his own opinion as to the Veto—his opinion having been once favourable to it, though that opinion was now entirely changed—yet the whole question ought to be left open to the House, and to the legislature. When, however, the noble lord talked of a difference of opinion among the Catholics, though they might differ in their notions as to the mode in which the measure ought to be framed, it did not therefore follow, that they were not prepared to yield a due obedience to such regulations as the legislature might think fit to enact. The legislature had certainly to consider for itself what regulations would be most beneficial to the country; and when parliament should have decided, he trusted there could be no doubt as to the obedience of the Catholics.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, there was no instance upon the Journals, of the House having ordered a petition presented to that House to be printed; and the printing of a petition would be the commencement of an entirely new practice. The House would, therefore, probably think it right to pause before it adopted that course. The petition would be laid on the table, and such noble lords as wished to examine it, would have abundant opportunity for that purpose. He agreed, that petitioners were not to prescribe to the legislature what measures or regulation to adopt; but the legislature ought to judge for itself, and adopt such measures as it might in its own discretion deem best calculated to promote the interests and happiness of the community; and when they came to the discussion of the Catholic claims, their lordships would, he trusted, bear in mind, that it was a question of the highest importance, and one which went to the very vitals of the constitution of this Protestant country.
The Earl of Donoughmoresaid, he certainly had no intention of proposing to their lordships the adoption of the regulation of the Veto. He agreed that petitioners ought not to make conditions with the legislature, and the Catholics had not attempted to make such conditions, but had temperately, though firmly, stated their claims to be admitted to the rights and privileges of the constitution. Far from making conditions, their aim had been to offer conciliation. They had offered a substitute for the Veto; and one which they conceived well calculated to remove the apprehensions of the greatest alarmists on the subject of foreign influence. He should not have said any thing on the question at present, had it not been for the alarm bell which had been rung by the learned lord on the woolsack, with reference to the safety of the Protestant establishments. He was sorry that so high an authority as the learned lord should, in so early a stage of the proceeding, have endeavoured to create a prejudice against the claims of the Catholics, and put an extinguisher on their hopes.
Lord Kenyonhad not said that there was any difference among the Catholics as to the point of obedience; but as there was some difference of opinion among them as to the regulations which ought to be adopted, he had thought it of some consequence to have this petition with the signatures printed. As he understood, 445 however, that it was irregular to print a petition, he would withdraw his motion.
Lord Hollandsaid, that as to the irregularity of printing a petition, he had some doubt, though he admitted that was the usual practice of the House; but, to select for printing this petition, signed by some individual Catholics, in opposition to the mode of proceeding adopted by the great body of the Catholics, he thought invidious, as it appeared like an attempt to get the question argued and decided on exparte evidence. He agreed, that it was fair to consider what was most likely to conciliate the Catholics, as part of the ground on which the question rested, but he could not help remarking, that a statement by the petitioners of what their wishes were, was not a refusal to obey whatever the legislature might think proper to enact. He wondered at the warmth of the learned lord on the woolsack, who, in a loud and thundering tone, which there was nothing in the present discussion to call forth, had declared that the question went to the very vitals of the constitution. As there was nothing to provoke this warmth at present, and as the learned lord was not in the habit of being out of humour, he was led to conclude that the learned lord had been roused into this extraordinary heat by that state of constant warfare and contention in which he must be engaged with such of his colleagues in office as approved of this measure, which went to the very vitals of the constitution. The learned lord, then, sat in council, and continued in office, with those who, according to his ideas, were favourably disposed towards measures which would subvert the constitution from its foundation; but he trusted that their zeal for their side of the question had been also roused by their warfare and contention with the learned lord, and that the Catholics would have the advantage of that zeal when the question came to be discussed.
§ The petition was laid on the table.