Lords Sitting of 9 May 1817

EXTENTS IN AID.
The Duke of Beaufort presented a petition from Bristol, against Extents in Aid.
The Earl of Lauderdalesaid, that the principle of extents in aid was attended with great disadvantage to the commerce of the country. It would be a most salutary regulation to prevent any man from being a partner in a country bank, who happened to be connected with the collection of the revenue.
The Earl of Liverpoolagreed as to the

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propriety of the principle laid down by the noble earl; it was one upon which he had acted since he first came into office. During that period he had never given a situation to any person connected with the collection of the revenue, without an understanding that such person should not engage in the concern of a country bank.
The Earl of Rosslynthought that a restriction to that extent would not be sufficient. If any banker in whose hands the money was lodged by the collector of the revenue, had himself such a connexion, the disadvantage would be equal. It would, therefore, be proper to extend the operation of any measure that might be introduced so as to include such cases.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that the subject of the petition ought to be brought to the notice of the barons of the exchequer, who best understood it.
The petition was laid on the table.

POOR LAWS.
The Earl of Liverpoolrose, pursuant to notice, to move for the appointment of a committee to consider the present state of the Poor Laws, and whether any and what remedy could and ought to be applied to the evils of the system. Considering the importance of the subject, it might perhaps be proper that he should state the reason why he had not brought forward the subject at an earlier period. Observing that a committee had been appointed in another place for the investigation of the same subject, he certainly had felt desirous to see what progress would be made in that investigation before he called upon their lordships to appoint a committee of this description. Great inconveniences often arose from inquiries on the same subject going on at the same time in both Houses; and sometimes undoubtedly, that course of proceeding was attended with great advantages. In his judgment, this was a case in which it was desirable to wait to see what would be done by the committee of the other House, and for that reason he had delayed calling their lordships attention to the subject sooner. It was irregular to allude to what had been done by the committee of the other House; but whatever might be thought of their conclusions, one thing was certain—that a most valuable mass of information had been collected, of which their lordships committee might avail itself: but from all that he had heard, it would be of great importance that, notwithstanding
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the labours of the other committee, the subject should be investigated by a committee of their lordships. The other House had no advantages for such an investigation which their lordships did not possess in fully as great a degree. There were many in their lordships House as well acquainted with the practical effects of the system, and as competent judges of what measures ought to be adopted. It was not his intention now to enter into the discussion of the principles which ought to govern their proceedings with respect to the poor-laws, as these might be considered and discussed with more freedom in the committee; and till the committee should have made its report, it might be proper to refrain from stating any distinct opinion on the subject. And he was the more inclined to follow that course, because, however general the coincidence of opinion was as to the effects of the system, and the evils that resulted from it, there was very considerable difference of opinion as to the proper remedies. This latter point was that as to which the great difficulty existed. The difficulty was not in tracing the source of the evil, but in finding the proper remedy for that evil. It was now generally admitted, that our system of poor laws was an evil; but then it was an evil which had existed for 200 years, and was so intermixed with the habits and prejudices of the people, that remedies which might at an earlier period have been easily applied could not now be adopted. He himself knew many persons whose information on this subject was not less than their candour, who had imagined that a remedy might be found without much difficulty; but when they came to probe the matter to the bottom, and to examine the subject in all its views and bearings, they themselves admitted, that they had found their remedies either such as could not possibly be adopted, or such as were highly objectionable. Under these circumstances, he thought that it might be attended with great advantage to have the subject investigated by a committee of their lordships, if those among them, who were most conversant with the subject of the poor-laws, would attend that committee, and give up a great part of their time and serious attention to the investigation. He had conversed with several noble lords of that description, and he was happy to state that he had received such assurances as afforded the best hopes that every thing

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would be done that could possibly be effected. This was a subject entirely unconnected with party views and purposes: they could have but one object, and every member of the committee must be desirous to discuss the subject temperately, and with a sincere and anxious wish to find that some effectual remedy could be applied. If it should unfortunately turn out that no such remedy could be applied, their lordships would at least satisfy the public that they had done every thing that depended upon them for the accomplishment of so desirable an object. He concluded, by moving, "That a committee be appointed to consider the present state of the poor-laws, and whether any and what remedy could be applied to the evils of which the system was productive."
Lord St. Johndid not rise to oppose the motion, and had only to regret that it was not brought forward sooner. This was an investigation which was likely to occupy a considerable length of time; and it might be doubtful whether it could be satisfactorily completed in the course of the present session. The committee ought, in his opinion, to include in the investigation, not only the state of the laws, but the practice also; and to consider whether alterations might not be beneficially introduced in both: and whether some means might not be found to afford a more effectual relief to those who were the subjects of the poor-laws, and at the same time to diminish the weight with which the system pressed upon the community. Much of the present pressure arose from the particular situation in which the commerce and agriculture of the country were at this time placed. The investigation, however, could hardly fail of being productive of great advantage.
Lord Hollandsaid, that if none but those who were conversant with the details of the business ought to be heard upon it, then he ought to give no opinion; but though he was not peculiarly conversant with the details of the poor-laws, yet he knew enough of their tendency and effects to enable him to say, with some confidence, that the motion of the noble earl, if followed up with diligence, and a proper desire to provide a remedy for the evil, would be one of the greatest boons that could be conferred on the country. He did not wish to speak now of the causes of the calamities under which the country laboured; but great as
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the other calamities were, there was nothing that pressed so heavily upon the nation as the poor-laws. He did not intend at present to go at all into the general discussion, but they had lately heard much of the visionary schemes of persons who were called Spenceans; but the real Spencean system was the system of the poor-laws. The system originated in the purest motives; but it had been attended with the most dreadful effects on the population, morals and industry of the nation. The principle of the system was this,—the rewarding of idleness and vice at the expense of industry and labour; and the giving to certain individuals an inordinate and oppressive control over the lower orders of the community. No evils were greater than those which resulted from the poor-laws, and no time was better calculated than the present for an attempt to relieve the country, to a certain extent at least, from so pernicious a system. He agreed with the noble earl, that the great difficulty consisted in devising a proper remedy, and that the appointment of a committee was the best mode of meeting and getting over that difficulty; but he thought that a remedy might be found, if it were one, which might be left to operate gradually. The rev. Joseph Townsend had, in a pamphlet which he had published in 1786, suggested a remedy which, though it might be impossible to apply it exactly in the shape in which it was stated in that pamphlet, might with some alterations, such as the extending the time beyond a period of 10 years, be rendered sufficiently practicable. These, however, were matters for the consideration of the committee. This was a time of pressure, and the most proper time to look these permanent evils in the face, and to endeavour to apply a remedy if possible; and if the committee could not complete its labours satisfactorily by the end of the present session, it might, and he had no doubt would collect a mass of information which would be extremely valuable for the purposes of any subsequent investigation.
The motion was agreed to, and a committee appointed.