Lords Sitting of 8 May 1817

ROMAN CATHOLIC QUESTION.
The Earl of Donoughmoresaid, that to the subject of the Petitions, which it was then his duty to present to that House, it had been his fixed determination to have called the attention of their lordships at a much earlier period of the session, and that he had expressed such to be his intention when he last addressed himself to the House on behalf of his Catholic countrymen. His feeling was then, and should ever continue to be, that, on a question of such extent and magnitude, so vitally interesting to an important class of his majesty's subjects, it needed not the continual solicitations of the individuals more immediately concerned to stimulate parliament to the performance of its duty; and that, if such remembrances were supposed to be necessary, they had already on the tables of both Houses, the petitions of the Catholics of Ireland, stating their grievances under the disabling statutes, and praying for redress. He did not wonder under such a state of the question, at the surprise which had been expressed by a noble friend of his (the earl of Darnley) on a recent occasion, that he had not himself redeemed the pledge which he thus appeared to have given of an early discussion.—The circumstances, however, by which he had been restrained, were such as, he was persuaded, would fully exculpate him, not only in the opinion of his noble friend, but in that of the House. That part of the Roman Catholic body, with which he had been so long acting, had been engaged, from the beginning of the year, in the laudable endeavour of effecting a general conciliation amongst themselves, with the view of approaching parliament once more, by one and the same general petition, speaking the wants and the wishes of all the Catholics of Ireland. Being aware that such an attempt had been made, and trusting that it might have been attended with success, would it not have been the part of a

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most inconsiderate, ill judging mind to have interposed, at such a moment, with any precipitate suggestions of his own? Though the endeavour at a general union amongst themselves had not been attended with the desired success, so far as related to the bringing forward of the whole Catholic body in their petitions to parliament, it had operated, however, most advantageously towards the advancement of the common cause by devising and bringing to maturity, that excellent specific against all the terrors of foreign influence, which went to secure the appointments to the higher dignities in the Roman Catholic church against the possibility of any interference from without, by making them depend exclusively upon the nomination of the Irish Roman Catholic clergy themselves. To this species of appointment, so properly denominated Domestic Nomination, there was sufficient ground to be assured, that the spiritual head of their church would not withhold his consent.—
Having proceeded thus far in the road of conciliation, the Catholic body had deserved well, in his opinion, of their Protestant countrymen and of the state. No doubt ought now to remain upon the mind of the greatest alarmist upon the score of foreign influence. If any political necessity should still make the opposition to any further concessions to their Catholic fellow-subjects a matter of indispensable political necessity, some new ground must be devised for their future operations. But, in the printed reports of what had recently passed upon that part of the subject in another place (through misconception, of course), there had been put into the mouths, not of those who oppose, but of some of the most sincere and strenuous advocates of the Catholic cause, a sentiment which could never have been uttered, because no such feeling could have rested upon their minds—as if contrasting the recent conduct of Roman Catholic prelates with that in 1808, these reverend and justly-respected persons had departed altogether from their former line of reasoning and of conduct, and had now adopted a course entirely different, in one as well as in the other. It is impossible, however, that any thing could have been so little justified as these impressions, by the real state of the case. For what were the circumstances under which the resolutions of the Roman Catholic prelates were entered into in 1808, by which they declared, with the full and hearty concurrence of the
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whole body of their laity too—that it would be, in their opinion, inexpedient to alter the established mode of appointment to prelacies in their church? It was with all the terrors of the Veto staring them in the face, that they have endeavoured to shut the door against that destructive foe to their religion, by the resolution to which he had alluded—and he must add, without any expedient then presenting itself to their minds, by which the conscientious scruples of many an honest man in and out of parliament, might have been set at rest. Having thus resisted, as incompatible with what they owed to the permanency of their own church, any interposition on the part of the Crown, in the appointments to its prelacies; and having a sincere desire on the other hand, to meet the wishes of their Protestant fellow subjects to the utmost of their power; they set themselves securely to work—the clergy and laity cordially concurring with each other, in the same good work of conciliation; and the event of their joint labours has been the devising of such an expedient against the bugbear of foreign influence, as could not fail to be satisfactory in quieting the scruples of every objector on fair, constitutional grounds, and thus they had enabled their advocates to approach both Houses of parliament, with the olive branch of conciliation in their hands.
Such being then the real state of the case, holding out as it did such very favourable prospects to those who advocated the restoration of franchise to their roman catholic countrymen, he could not imagine on what facts or principles was bottomed the opinion which was given by a right hon. gentleman (sir J. Nicholl) of high professional character and just weight, on a recent discussion in another place. That right hon. gentleman—whose opinions claim additional attention from his near official connexion with the right reverend bench—has been made to declare in the printed reports of those proceedings, that so far from the question coming before parliament now, under auspices more favourable than heretofore, circumstances had taken place, not in the united kingdom only, but in the rest of Europe, which, in his view of the subject gave to the state of the question a very different aspect indeed. It had entirely escaped the noble earl's observation what these unfavourable circumstances were, or could, by possibility be, either abroad or at

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home. But it was an easy matter to discover, in the present state of the protestant feelings and conduct, in an important and interesting part of the united kingdom, to which the petitions on the table were particularly related, the strongest possible arguments to enforce the necessity—for the sake of common justice and the equal execution of the law of the land, to put this question completely at rest, by prompt and liberal concession. He alluded to two facts, which he would mention in their order—one of them referring to the metropolis county, and the other to the metropolis itself. With respect to the first, though the relaxing statutes—which had, or rather ought to have been so long in general operation—admitted catholics on a footing of perfect equality with their protestant countrymen, on all grand juries, which, as their lordships must know, had the peculiar exclusive province in his country of taxing the land—and to no inconsiderable amount either—he was himself enabled to furnish the House with a long list of Catholics, the properties of many of whom stand in the very first, and all of characters the most respectable— who had never been admitted to the honour of serving their country in the situation of grand juries, in any one instance— or of watching over the taxation of their own estates.
The other circumstance to which he should allude, related to the metropolis itself. It was a toast given in a large society of gentlemen—and which is resorted to by none but persons, who, in point of situation and property, are entitled to that denomination. But what was this toast? it was so nauseous and disgusting, that it was with difficulty that he could prevail upon himself to pollute their lordships House by the mere repetition of it. "The Pope in the Pillory—the Pillory in Hell—pelted with Priests, by the Devil!" In a society of christians of any description, what desolation of inebriated reason could palliate so great an abomination? What extreme degree of the most beastly intoxication could have tolerated so violent an attack upon common manners and common decency, in a society of individuals, who assumed to themselves, in the remotest degree, the port and character of gentlemen? But this was not a mere drunken folly—it was the sober malignity of the Bigot, which the unguarded sincerity of beastly debauch had indiscreetly brought into open day. And all this took place
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in the metropolis, as he had already stated, which was the station of a parliament, and is still the residence of the king's representative. For the parliament, happilly he had no hesitation in saying, for the public, it no longer exists, neither would he say, in writing its epitaph, "De mortuis nil nisi bonum." It was the fit instrument of corruption, oligarchy, and proscription, and he rejoiced in having contributed his best efforts towards its degradation and extinguishment. With respect to the scene of these elegant Bachanalian festivities, being still the residence of the king's representative, he must not be misunderstood as meaning to convey any thing like an impression, as if the present lord lieutenant could have heard of this, profanation of private society, without the horror which it must necessarily convey to every liberal mind.
To extinguish for ever all dangerous and discreditable heat on all sides; be called for the settlement of this question on fair and equitable principles for all—as imperiously demanded by the present state, as well of the Catholic as the Protestant mind. Enough, and too much of heat had there already been on the part as well of the Catholics themselves, and of some of their advocates, as of those who were the constant opponents of their claims. He had himself more than once taken the freedom which belonged to him, as one of their oldest and most attached supporters, to reprehend in his clients that heat which he did not think was likely to add to the number of their friends—and who had a more undoubted right to assume the province of such an adviser than himself—when he had thought it due, at the same time to truth and to his own feelings, to declare that he had been led by the warmth of debate, even in that House, to enter into such a line of argument, as his own sober judgment had revolted at, when due reflection had come to his aid. All heat, however, he trusted, was at an end, and that they had now advanced at once into the long wished-for era of mutual conciliation. If such was not the case, no blame could at least be attributed to his Catholic countrymen. When the petitions, which he was about to present, had been received, and read, he should for a time withold the usual motion far the appointment of a day for taking, them into consideration; under a sanguine expectation, that he should, at no great interval of time, have to hail the arrival of just re-

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lief to the Catholics, in the shape of a legislative measure, from the other House. Should these expectations be disappointed, however, he should in that case propose to their lordships a very early day for taking these petitions into consideration. The noble earl then presented to the House the general petition of the Roman Catholics of Ireland, and another petition from the Roman Catholics of the county and city of Waterford. He reminded the House that they had still upon their table the petitions which had been intrusted to his care, during the last session, by those respectable persons who had met at the house of lord Trimleston, and by the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland, to both of which petitions he was again instructed to direct the attention of their lordships; and upon the part of the sacred order, two most reverend persons, the fit representatives of that greatly respected body, had been deputed, and were now at hand, for the express purpose of contributing ever}' necessary information and all possible facilities on their parts, towards affording to the watchfulness of the most jealous protestant, every consistent security, short of what they owe to the security of those religious doctrines, which they themselves profess.
The Earl of Darnleydid not rise to anticipate the discussion which must shortly take place on the subject, but he did expect, from what had already passed, that it would have been introduced inconsequence of a recommendation from the executive government. When it did come forward, it should have every support from him, for he did not anticipate that any reason could be given to satisfy his mind that the measure ought not to take place.
The petitions were then read.