Lords Sitting of 20 March 1817

SEDITIOUS MEETINGS BILL.
The order of the day for the second reading of this bill being read,
Lord Sidmouthsaid, it was not his intention to detain the House long, as he understood that any objections that might be made, would go rather to some of the provisions of the bill, than to its principle. Since the outrage against the Prince Regent, and the report of their lordships committee, three bills had passed the legislature—one for giving his royal highness the same protection as his majesty had, and rendering the provisions perpetual as to both; another to punish, with greater severity than before, any attempt to seduce soldiers and sailors from their allegiance; and the third, for detaining in custody certain persons suspected of being concerned in treasonable practices. With respect to the two first of these bills, it would have been wise and proper to pass them, though the circumstances which had occasioned the passing of the other, had not existed. The third bill was founded on the information which the executive government had laid before their lordships committee, and on which the committee had reported, that there existed a traitorous conspiracy for the subversion, by means of a general insurrection, of the government, laws, and constitution of this kingdom; and the committee, at the close of the report, stated, that farther provisions were necessary for the preservation of the public peace.— What were the circumstances that led the committee to that conclusion? They must have been such as convinced the committee, that the existing laws were not sufficient to meet the evil, chiefly because, under the law as it stood, it was in the power of a few persons to bring together, without the sanction of any recognized authority, in the neighbourhood of great towns, where distress and discontent prevailed, the turbulent and the factious of every description, to consider and discuss the state of the country. But it did not depend merely on the statement of the committee, for it was notorious, that, at meetings so called, ill-disposed persons took the opportunity, with such dexterity as to evade the law, of inflaming the minds of the people, leading them from discontent to sedition. This was the danger which the committee had in contemplation when

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it stated, that farther provisions were necessary; and it was principally from the consideration of that evil, that the present bill was introduced. The bill was formed upon the plan, and made up chiefly of the provisions, of the Seditious Meetings Acts of the 36th and 39th of the king. His lordship then entered into a short explanation of the enactments of the bill. He said, he could not anticipate to the general principle of these provisions any objection, not imagining that any of their lordships, however they might differ as to particular clauses, would object to making some farther legislative provisions, in order to remedy those evils, and prevent those dangerous consequences, which manifestly arose from allowing the kind of meetings to which he had alluded, to be held and adjourned over at pleasure, without check or control. His lordship concluded by moving, the second reading of the bill.
Earl Grosvenorsaid, he did not know what had led the noble secretary to conclude, that there was no difference of opinion as to the principle of the bill, as he had distinctly intimated his objections to it. He had considerable objection to all the clauses of it, except one; which was very like an objection to the principle. However, he would reserve what he had to say upon the principle of the measure, till the third reading, when he should have an opportunity of seeing the bill as it came out of the committee. In the mean time, he could not but state, that he saw no necessity for joining the temporary and permanent provisions in one bill. It was an aukward manner of legislating, and might produce legal difficulties as to the construction of the act. He saw no reason why the bill should not be divided, and would move an instruction to the committee for that purpose. He could not agree with the noble secretary, that the law as it stood was not sufficient to meet the evil. He had, on the contrary, always thought the existing law powerful enough, if properly applied, to answer the purpose: or, at least, that nothing more was necessary than to strengthen it. He and the noble secretary differed widely in their views, both of the danger and the remedy. He conceived, that all they were doing was wrong; and that the measures they were adopting were likely to create the danger against which they were intended to guard; to engender a spirit of disaffection whore it did not be-
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fore exist; and to embody resentment where none was before felt.
Lord Hollandhoped, that no advantage would be taken of their not having discussed the principle of the bill now. He concurred in that clause which, generally speaking, went to give greater weight to public meetings, and likewise in that which went to prevent improper meetings. Of all the rest of the bill he disapproved; and it ought to be observed, that they had now, in about three weeks, made more alterations in the law, with reference to the present difficulties, than Mr. Pitt's administration had done in six months, in a period of greater alarm. The ministers had swept together every thing that had been passed in moments of difficulty, and re-enacted them in a heap, making some of the provisions permanent. He concurred with his noble friend, that what was temporary ought to be separated from what was permanent. These provisions were distinct in their nature, and ought to be includedin separate bills.
The bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow. Earl Grosvenor then moved, that the committee be instructed to divide the bill.
The Earl of Liverpoolcould not concur in that motion. If any such legal difficulties as the noble earl had alluded to should arise, from that which was temporary being included in the same bill with that which was permanent, then certainly it would be proper to divide the bill; but he could not conceive how any such difficulties could arise, the temporary and the permanent provisions being both distinctly stated.
Lord Hollandthought that the bill ought to be divided, as it was a confused mode of legislating to unite temporary and permanent provisions in the same bill; and he was happy that the motion was made, as it would at least appear on the Journals, that there was one peer who had objected to that course.
The motion was negatived.

WEST INDIA SLAVES.
Lord Grenvillerose to call the attention of the House to a subject winch had been under the consideration of the House last session: he alluded to the subject of the Abolition of the Slave trade and the Registry of Slaves. He had then stated the reasons which induced him to refrain from pressing any specific measure to be adopted by parliament, with respect to the registration of

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slaves in the colonies. The reasons were, that he had been informed, that it was probable the local legislatures would adopt such measures as would answer the purpose. He had last year stated his intention of bringing the subject before their lordships early in the present session. The reason why he had not done so was, that he understood the local legislatures had had such measures under discussion, and that, in the principal colony, an act had been passed for the object which he had mentioned. He never could admit, that by any act of the Crown, a million of British subjects should be withdrawn from the control of the imperial parliament; but at the same time he admitted, that if the local legislatures would adopt such measures as would effectually accomplish the great object in view, it was much better that this should be done by them than by others. He expressed his hope, that his noble friend would state what had been done by the local legislatures on this important subject. He wished to know, first, whether there had been any discussion by the legislature of Jamaica, and by those of the other colonies, on the subject in question? Secondly, whether any bills had been passed; and, if passed, whether any of them had been received by the ministers of the Crown?
Earl Bathurststated, that after the subject had been discussed in that House, a letter had been addressed to the governors of the several West India islands, with instructions to make the proper communications to the assemblies, and persuade them to adopt such measures as were best calculated to accomplish the object in view. He was now able to state to their lordships, that intelligence had been received, that in Jamaica a bill for the registration of slaves had been passed; and also another bill for giving greater effect to the object of the abolition of the slave traffic; that in Barbadoes an act had been passed for the registration of slaves; and that in St. Vincent's, and other islands, the subject had been under discussion; and it was expected, that all the other legislatures would follow the example of Jamaica. The acts which had been passed would, as soon as possible, be laid on their lordships table. With respect to the colonial legislatures, he must say, that they had evinced every disposition to attend to the wishes of the legislature and public of Great Britain, and to promote the object in view.
Lord Grenvillesaid, that the information now communicated by his noble friend, afforded him the most lively satisfaction; and he was more particularly gratified by the assurance, that the colonial legislatures had shown a sincere desire to contribute to the accomplishment of the great object in view. He hoped the bills would, without delay, be laid on the table, that they might see how far they were calculated to answer the purpose; and, if there were no objection, he would now submit a motion to that effect.
Earl Bathurstsaid, that it was his intention, before Easter, to lay the acts on the table.