HL Deb 10 June 1817 vol 36 cc928-32
The Earl of Liverpool,

on moving the third reading of this bill, stated shortly, the grounds on which it was proposed. He admitted, that the general principle was against measures of this nature, because it was much better, with regard to the greater part of public works, to leave them to those who undertook them as a commercial speculation, and with a view to profit, than to interpose the assistance of government. And the fact was, that the greater part of those public works, which were now of any importance, had been carried on and completed by means of the speculations of individuals and private bodies. There were, however, to this general principle, exceptions founded upon special circumstances, where the aid and interposition of government might be of effectual service, both with respect to the assistance actually afforded, and to the spirit excited by it, with a view to the furtherance of the objects sought to be carried into effect. It was upon the ground of special circumstances of this nature that pecuniary aid was afforded by government to the commercial body in 1793 and 1811, and which assistance was productive of the greatest advantage. The present bill was also founded upon special circumstances, which, though not altogether the same as those existing in 1793 and 1811, were nearly similar, the main object being to relieve the difficulties arising from a diminution of the circulating medium, and a deficiency of credit, by advancing money to carry on public works, and thereby giving employment to a number of the labouring poor, who could not otherwise obtain it. The two objects of the bill were, to advance money for the carrying on of public works, and also to parishes with a view to relieve the pressure of the poor-rates. With regard to the latter, he did not anticipate that there would be many calls for money, but if it should afford a relief in only a few instances, still the enactment would be of considerable service. With regard to public works, he conceived that an advance of money for the purpose of commencing or carrying on works of public utility, would be, under the pressure of present circumstances, most beneficial in its consequences, by giving employment to a number of persons, for whose labour there was at this time no demand. The difficulties which existed had arisen from a combination of circumstances which peculiarly called for the special interposition of parliament. The depreciation of landed property, compared with its value for the last few years, had, in the first instance, created considerable embarrassment; but this evil, he believed, was now beginning to diminish, by the increasing value of that description of property. The depression of the manufacturing interest, another great evil, was to be attributed to the over-trade carried on for some years with the continent, and the consequent diminution of the demand for our manufactures, which had necessarily thrown a number of persons out of employment, and lessened the demand for labour. Added to this was the effects of the late bad harvest, which, immediately increasing the price of provisions, at a period when the demand for labour had greatly diminished, unavoidably increased the pressure; but which also, by its operation on the continent, tended materially to increase the pressure upon the manufacturing interest. On the continent, with respect to the distress arising from the scarcity of food, the people were much worse off than in this country; and he had himself received accounts that day from Germany and France, respecting this subject, which were quite appalling. It of course followed, that provisions being raised on the continent to four times their former price, the incomes of a great number of persons were wholly employed in procuring subsistence, and they had no surplus whatever to lay out in articles of manufacture. This necessarily increased the pressure upon the manufacturing interest here, and precluded a demand for labour. It was under these special circumstances of pressure and difficulty, that he proposed to their lordships to agree to the present bill; and though, undoubtedly, time was the only effectual remedy, under the operation of which the pressure and difficulty would gradually cease, still this measure, as a temporary relief, would, he conceived, be of essential service.

The Earl of Lauderdale

was glad to hear the noble lord advocate the general principle, that it was unwise in government to interfere in affording aid for the carrying on of public works which were best conducted by individuals as a speculation with a view to their own profit. He could not, however, see, that in the argument with regard to the exception, any good ground was laid for the present measure. The noble lord had himself admitted, that with respect to the proposed advances of money to parishes, the bill would be of no use; why, then, insert these clauses at all? The only effect would be to increase discontent. A general idea had gone forth, that this bill was to operate as a sort of general parochial relief, and what must necessarily be the effect of the disappointment but increased discontent? The measure was altogether one which it would be much better not to pass; and when he saw that after three months deliberation upon circumstances known at the commencement of the session, the only result was the present bill, under which money borrowed at 2½ per cent, was to be lent at 5 per cent, thereby obtaining an usurious interest, he could not help thinking the bill little calculated to make any favourable impression upon the public mind. The noble lord had maintained that the difficulties of the present period, with regard to the state of our manufactures, had arisen merely from a transition from war to peace, but this was by no means a true view of the question. The real facts were, that by means of the enormously increased expenditure of the country during a period of twenty years, there had been a greatly increased demand for our manufactures, and consequently a continually increasing demand or labour, by which population was naturally increased. The necessary consequence of a decrease in the public expenditure was, a diminished demand for manufactures and a diminished demand for labour with an increased population. How was it possible to find employment for the surplus labour for which there was thus no demand? The noble lord proposed a partial relief by giving employment to a certain portion of labour, but this would only aggravate the evil. The money advanced was to be repaid at the end of two years, and then there would only be an increase of the evil in the accumulation of unemployed labour. Thus there would be in point of fact, no remedy for the evil, whilst another evil of no small moment would be created. The money was to be advanced upon the security of individuals, but in such a way and with such means of recovering it by immediate process of law, that persons might well hesitate to become security under such circumstances; and what was the consequence? that the higher classes were unjustly held up as objects of detestation to the lower ranks, already too prone to make attacks upon persons of property. What, besides, would be the effect of the advances for carrying on public works with regard to the employment of the poor in the neighbourhoods of those works; persons having to carry on works with a view to profit, would of course employ the best workmen at the cheapest rate; they would seek for them wherever they were to be found, and bring them to the spot, without any regard whatever to the poor of the immediate neighbourhood. Under all these circumstances, he thought it would be much better to postpone the bill.

The bill was read a third time and passed.