The Earl of Liverpool, in rising to move the third reading of this bill, observed, that it was a measure of very great importance. The subject was one that had undergone the most serious consideration. In another place, a committee had been appointed to inquire into it, and they had recommended, that some alteration should be made in the grand jury system 1369 of Ireland. The object of the bill was, to meet that recommendation. The business of the grand jury was divided into the civil and criminal departments. The civil business was so extensive, that, with the most honest intentions, the grand jury could rarely get through it. A mass of business thus grew up, in the criminal way, which they were totally unable to discharge. In consequence, depositions were taken before magistrates, on which bills were founded, instead of evidence being heard in the usual way. This part of the subject had come before their lordships in a former session—when a bill was passed, assimilating, in this respect, the laws of the two countries, by which it was provided, that the grand jury should have viva voce evidence before them, to enable them to decide, instead of acting on depositions taken before magistrates. This, again, would throw an additional weight of business on the grand jury, who, in consequence of proceeding with the examination of witnesses, would be prevented from attending properly to the presentments. Therefore some alteration was necessary in the system. Besides this, it was to be observed, that, in Ireland, grand juries levied money; a privilege which, in this country, was only vested in parliament. Such a power was liable to abuse, and ought to be guarded against. The present bill went to remove the opportunity of acting corruptly, at the same time that it did not alter the whole system, as it now existed. It did this—it brought the subject-matter of presentments into court, stripped of local prejudices and affections. That presentments should so be introduced was for the general benefit of Ireland. In effecting this object, it was necessary that new officers should be created. It was very well to talk of the patronage of government, and to exclaim against it on all occasions, as being used for corrupt and sinister purposes; but, whore local prejudices existed—the prejudice of man against man—the patronage of government might, very often, be exercised to the general advantage. With respect to those who, under this bill, were to report on the propriety of presentments, they were to be professional men, examined regularly before a properly qualified board. The power of presenting was not done away altogether by this bill; but it was deemed proper to regulate it. Some restrictions were conceived to be necessary, in order to rectify certain imperfec- 1370 tions which appeared in the system. It was his firm belief, that the present bill, as an incipient step, subject, however, to future alterations, would be found most useful.
The Earl of Donoughmoresaid, that the bill would operate a great change in the system under which grand juries at present acted in Ireland. He was absolutely astonished, when he found that the bill was the result of three years' deliberation in another place. The bill proceeded on the principle of alteration only—of alteration, without any commensurate benefit. If the sheriffs appointed good grand juries in Ireland, no alteration whatever would be necessary. The public money was, however, squandered away for private purposes. The county member, by his influence, frequently appointed the sheriff, who nominated the grand jury, and thus one-half of the county was frequently fleeced for the benefit of the other. If measures were taken to give Ireland disinterested grand juries for one year, and at the expiration of the period, complaints still existed, then the noble lord might say, "We have done every thing possible for the amelioration of this system. There is, however, something radically bad in it, and it is necessary to take away from Irish grand juries the right of applying money." The only reason he could perceive for the present measure was this—that the more money the grand juries appropriated to the making of roads and the raising of bridges in Ireland, the less could she contribute, in taxation, towards the expenses of this country; therefore, it was, perhaps, deemed necessary to abrogate this power as far as possible. The present bill gave to government a patronage of 15,900l. a year, and planted a portion of that patronage in every county: thus giving the administration an additional influence in the support of those parliamentary candidates whose cause they espoused.—There was to be one supervisor, or civil engineer, in each county, to report on the improvements necessary to be made, Now, in the county of Tipperary, there were eleven baronies, each of which had a supervisor of its own. It was supposed that the sole attention of one person was required to watch the presentments in a single barony; but, according to the provisions of this bill, one man would be employed to do the business, which now fully occupied eleven. It was, in fact, almost as much as one man could 1371 do to supervise the works of a barony. He must first see every road, or bridge, or work, intended to be presented, and it was his business to state his approbation or disapprobation of the proposed measure. This was the business of one assize. Before the ensuing assize, he must examine whether the work was fairly executed or not, and whether the sums charged had been properly expended. But the alteration of the system went to make one man, in an extensive county, 50 or 60 miles from end to end, perform the complicated duties which were now attended to by eleven persons. The bill gave an increase of patronage to the government, while it took away from the grand jury the appointment of their own local officers. This, he thought, was not fair. He observed, by one of the clauses of the bill, that the metropolitan county was exempted from its operations. For this he could see no reason whatever. The present was a bill of great detail, it permitted the levying of money in the different counties of Ireland, and yet it was passed over as unimportant. If the other House were three years investigating the subject, why should time be refused to their lordships to consider it fairly? The noble earl concluded by moving, "that the bill be read a third time this day three months."
The Earl of Limericksaid, the bill was introduced for the purpose of abolishing a system of consummate plunder, which had been acted on Ireland for a scries of years, and which chiefly afflicted the lowest part of the population. The higher classes contrived to withdraw their own shoulders from the burthen, and to place it on those of their poor neighbours. The noble earl had made an attack on government, who, he argued, wished by this bill to secure the privilege of plundering the people—of appropriating the money intended for roads and bridges, to other purposes. The provisions of the bill did not bear out this assertion. They did, indeed, deprive grand juries of the power of jobbing, and of expending the public money for private purposes; but they did no more. This very power was one of the greatest grievances Ireland laboured under, and it was time it should be removed. The money swallowed up by presentments was little short of a million a-year, while the general revenue of the country did not much exceed four. By whom was this power exercised? By grand juries, appointed by the sheriff, who were anxious 1372 to receive emoluments themselves, or to procure them for their friends. What became of them, if their presentments were discovered to be improper? They were not to be found. The moment the mischief was done, they were dispersed all over the country—they were not tangible—they could not be grasped. Under the present system, one-half of a county was fleeced for the benefit of the other. This bill was intended to do away so disgraceful a system, and would, beyond a doubt, effectually put it down.
The Earl of Caledondefended the conduct of grand juries in the northern counties of Ireland, and observed, with respect to the expense of public works, that it was compulsory on grand juries to present for roads in Ireland. He was hostile to the general principle of this bill. If it were enacted, repairs would take place only during the summer assizes, and not when they might become necessary.
The Marquis of Lansdownerose to support the bill, from a conviction of the importance and difficulty of dispensing the large sums of money which were to be disposed of by the grand juries of Ireland. The various duties of the grand juries of Ireland had so much increased of late, that it was impossible for them to discharge them to advantage. The public works had risen to such a height, and the amount of money to be expended had so much increased, that it was high time to impose some check on those who had the disposal of it. The restraints imposed by the bill were not probably the best that could be imposed; they were possibly of a nature which threw too large a patronage into the hands of the Crown; but precautions were also taken to obviate in some degree this inconvenience, and the restraints, if not thus applied, might be sought for in vain in other quarters. By a bill which had been passed in the last session, and which had been introduced by an hon. and learned friend of his (Mr. Horner), whose memory he should ever revere, as he had admired his talents and respected his private virtues and eminent public qualities—by that bill the business of grand juries in Ireland had been materially increased by compelling them to examine viva voce evidence. The consequence of this increase of business was, to disable the grand juries from investigating 1373 all their presentments; and indeed it appeared from the report of a committee of the House of Commons on this subject, that they neither had time to examine the presentments they voted, nor after they lad granted them, to inquire into the manner in which they had been carried into execution. He understood that a million of money was annually disposed of by grand jury presentments in public works. Without imputing to Ireland a greater degree of weakness than belonged to other nations, he could not avoid apprehending ill consequences from the temptation to dishonesty which the command of such a sum of money offered. This required some control, which the present bill provided.
§ The amendment was negatived; after which, the bill was read a third time and passed.