Lords Sitting of 10 July 1817

POOR LAWS.
The Earl of Hardwickepresented a Report from the committee on the Poor Laws. It could hardly have been expected that the committee, during the short period that elapsed since its appointment, could have fully examined the subject, or have collected so much information as to enable it to give any decided opinion as to what ought to be done: but he was not sorry that such a committee had been appointed, because it had at least collected some information well worthy of their lordships attention. It was not his intention to enter into the particulars of the report; but if any measure were adopted, founded upon the subject of the report, he trusted it would come from the executive government; ministers having, from their situations, much better opportunities of forming a correct judgment as to the proper course to be pursued than other persons enjoyed.
The Earl of Liverpoolcould not allow the occasion to pass without saying, that no examination had ever been conducted with more candour and liberality, or with a stronger disposition to attend to every view in which the subject could be represented. It would certainly be improper at present to propose any measure founded on that report. It would be necessary to investigate this important subject much more fully and extensively, before their lordships could venture to come to any
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decided conclusion: and, whatever measures might ultimately be adopted, he believed that much would be found to depend on the due administration of the existing laws. The reports of this and the other House contained a great body of valuable evidence; and much good might be done by their lordships during the recess, by collecting in their several counties all the information that could be procured on this very interesting subject.

SLAVE TRADE.
Lord Grenvillesaid, he had to call the attention of their lordships to a subject of as much importance as any that under any circumstances could come before them. He disapproved of the practice of introducing measures of importance at a late period of the session, but the case to which he was about to advert was an exception, as the proper course undoubtedly was, to wait until nearly the end of the session, in order to ascertain what had been done by his majesty's ministers, in order to obtain the total abolition of the African slave trade. It had been stated some years ago, that our abolition would do nothing, unless other powers could be induced to join in it. But even with the knowledge that not one human being the less would be torn from the coast of Africa, that one drop of human blood the less would be shed, still he would have pressed the abolition on our part, that we might be exonerated from the guilt of this detestable traffic; if other powers chose to continue it, upon their heads be the blood, we should be free from the stain.—Much had, however, happily been done to induce other powers to join in the abolition of this odious traffic. France and Portugal had been induced to abolish it, and this had undoubtedly been a great gain to the cause of humanity. They should recollect, however, that if they did little, very little would be done; that if they were feeble in their exertions, trifling would be the result; it was only by perseverance they could gain the advantage they looked to, and which, for the sake of humanity, he trusted would ultimately be obtained. It was also too true, that this abominable traffic was now carried on to a very great extent, as appeared by documents that had been handed to him; that it was carried on under the flags and by the subjects of Portugal, of France (in one instance under the Dutch flag), and of

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America. But more than all was it carried on under the flag and by the subjects of Spain; and it was indeed a mortifying circumstance, that the very spot in Africa where we were making the most praiseworthy attempt to introduce civilization, had been chosen by Spain for the purpose of introducing all the horrors of the slave trade, as if for the express purpose of breaking down all the means so justly attempted for the purpose of civilizing the natives of Africa, and keeping them in a continued state of barbarism. It was a melancholy fact, that this trade, carried on under these circumstances, was conducted in a way the most shocking to humanity. In the course of the discussion in parliament, on the abolition of the slave trade, all parties agreed in passing a bill for the purpose of doing away the horrors of what was technically called the middle passage. But in the way in which this most inhuman traffic was now carried on, the horrors of it were redoubled, there being no check or control over the inhuman oppressors of their fellow men. It was impossible for any one in the shape of a human being, to read the accounts of the atrocities committed in this way, without shuddering at their barbarity. His lordship here read the affidavit of a British officer [lieutenant Eike; see the speech of Mr. Wilberforce in the House of Commons yesterday] respecting the inhuman treatment of slaves on board a Portuguese vessel, which had been captured, and referred to documents, respecting the barbarous usage of slaves on board Spanish vessels engaged in this trade. That these inhuman outrages should be continued was most afflicting to humanity, whilst the manner in which the trade was carried on rendered it still more outrageous. The vessels employed in it were armed for warlike purposes, and it was too much to say that vessels were to be employed, so armed, to carry on a peaceful traffic; they were, in point of fact, engaged in perpetual contests with British vessels, they were armed for that purpose, and such contests must lead, sooner or later, to actual hostilities. Under such circumstances, and when the allied powers had come to the determination of using all their efforts to abolish the slave trade, having also, as they had done very wisely, interfered by way of mediation to prevent hostilities between Spain and Portugal, his majesty's ministers] would undoubtedly be justified in applying to
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the allied powers for their interference to prevent those hostilities between this country and Spain, which must unavoidably be the consequence of these continual contests with Spanish armed vessels. It was by means of efforts of this nature that we must look for the final abolition of this odious traffic. He did not mean to impute the least neglect, upon this point, to his majesty's ministers, but it was absolutely necessary that parliament should not relax in their efforts in this cause of humanity. His lordship concluded by moving an address to the Prince Regent, couched in the same terms as that moved in the House of Commons yesterday by Mr. Wilberforce.
The Earl of Liverpoolexpressed his assent to the address of the noble lord. He never entertained but one opinion respecting the making the abolition effectual—that it was necessary that the measure should not only be adopted by Great Britain, but acceded to by all other nations. Much, however, still remained to be done, to induce the powers who still continued the trade to agree to its abolition. There was one consolation, however, in the consideration of this question—that whatever evasions existed, as applicable to the flag of other countries, there was no imputation whatever of any abuses having been practised under the British flag. Prudential considerations prevented him from entering into any detail of the steps which had been taken by his majesty's government with a view to the accomplishing the abolition of the slave trade. There were still negociations in progress of an important nature, which, he hoped, might still be brought to a satisfactory issue. And unless some unforeseen circumstances occurred, he was in the full expectation that it would be in the power of the executive to make in the beginning of the next session, a communication to parliament of the result of their negociations.
The address was agreed to unanimously.

IRISH GRAND JURY PRESENTMENTS BILL.—
The Earl of Liverpool, in rising to move the third reading of this bill, observed, that it was a measure of very great importance. The subject was one that had undergone the most serious consideration. In another place, a committee had been appointed to inquire into it, and they had recommended, that some alteration should be made in the grand jury system

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of Ireland. The object of the bill was, to meet that recommendation. The business of the grand jury was divided into the civil and criminal departments. The civil business was so extensive, that, with the most honest intentions, the grand jury could rarely get through it. A mass of business thus grew up, in the criminal way, which they were totally unable to discharge. In consequence, depositions were taken before magistrates, on which bills were founded, instead of evidence being heard in the usual way. This part of the subject had come before their lordships in a former session—when a bill was passed, assimilating, in this respect, the laws of the two countries, by which it was provided, that the grand jury should have viva voce evidence before them, to enable them to decide, instead of acting on depositions taken before magistrates. This, again, would throw an additional weight of business on the grand jury, who, in consequence of proceeding with the examination of witnesses, would be prevented from attending properly to the presentments. Therefore some alteration was necessary in the system. Besides this, it was to be observed, that, in Ireland, grand juries levied money; a privilege which, in this country, was only vested in parliament. Such a power was liable to abuse, and ought to be guarded against. The present bill went to remove the opportunity of acting corruptly, at the same time that it did not alter the whole system, as it now existed. It did this—it brought the subject-matter of presentments into court, stripped of local prejudices and affections. That presentments should so be introduced was for the general benefit of Ireland. In effecting this object, it was necessary that new officers should be created. It was very well to talk of the patronage of government, and to exclaim against it on all occasions, as being used for corrupt and sinister purposes; but, whore local prejudices existed—the prejudice of man against man—the patronage of government might, very often, be exercised to the general advantage. With respect to those who, under this bill, were to report on the propriety of presentments, they were to be professional men, examined regularly before a properly qualified board. The power of presenting was not done away altogether by this bill; but it was deemed proper to regulate it. Some restrictions were conceived to be necessary, in order to rectify certain imperfec-
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tions which appeared in the system. It was his firm belief, that the present bill, as an incipient step, subject, however, to future alterations, would be found most useful.
The Earl of Donoughmoresaid, that the bill would operate a great change in the system under which grand juries at present acted in Ireland. He was absolutely astonished, when he found that the bill was the result of three years' deliberation in another place. The bill proceeded on the principle of alteration only—of alteration, without any commensurate benefit. If the sheriffs appointed good grand juries in Ireland, no alteration whatever would be necessary. The public money was, however, squandered away for private purposes. The county member, by his influence, frequently appointed the sheriff, who nominated the grand jury, and thus one-half of the county was frequently fleeced for the benefit of the other. If measures were taken to give Ireland disinterested grand juries for one year, and at the expiration of the period, complaints still existed, then the noble lord might say, "We have done every thing possible for the amelioration of this system. There is, however, something radically bad in it, and it is necessary to take away from Irish grand juries the right of applying money." The only reason he could perceive for the present measure was this—that the more money the grand juries appropriated to the making of roads and the raising of bridges in Ireland, the less could she contribute, in taxation, towards the expenses of this country; therefore, it was, perhaps, deemed necessary to abrogate this power as far as possible. The present bill gave to government a patronage of 15,900 l. a year, and planted a portion of that patronage in every county: thus giving the administration an additional influence in the support of those parliamentary candidates whose cause they espoused.—There was to be one supervisor, or civil engineer, in each county, to report on the improvements necessary to be made, Now, in the county of Tipperary, there were eleven baronies, each of which had a supervisor of its own. It was supposed that the sole attention of one person was required to watch the presentments in a single barony; but, according to the provisions of this bill, one man would be employed to do the business, which now fully occupied eleven. It was, in fact, almost as much as one man could

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do to supervise the works of a barony. He must first see every road, or bridge, or work, intended to be presented, and it was his business to state his approbation or disapprobation of the proposed measure. This was the business of one assize. Before the ensuing assize, he must examine whether the work was fairly executed or not, and whether the sums charged had been properly expended. But the alteration of the system went to make one man, in an extensive county, 50 or 60 miles from end to end, perform the complicated duties which were now attended to by eleven persons. The bill gave an increase of patronage to the government, while it took away from the grand jury the appointment of their own local officers. This, he thought, was not fair. He observed, by one of the clauses of the bill, that the metropolitan county was exempted from its operations. For this he could see no reason whatever. The present was a bill of great detail, it permitted the levying of money in the different counties of Ireland, and yet it was passed over as unimportant. If the other House were three years investigating the subject, why should time be refused to their lordships to consider it fairly? The noble earl concluded by moving, "that the bill be read a third time this day three months."
The Earl of Limericksaid, the bill was introduced for the purpose of abolishing a system of consummate plunder, which had been acted on Ireland for a scries of years, and which chiefly afflicted the lowest part of the population. The higher classes contrived to withdraw their own shoulders from the burthen, and to place it on those of their poor neighbours. The noble earl had made an attack on government, who, he argued, wished by this bill to secure the privilege of plundering the people—of appropriating the money intended for roads and bridges, to other purposes. The provisions of the bill did not bear out this assertion. They did, indeed, deprive grand juries of the power of jobbing, and of expending the public money for private purposes; but they did no more. This very power was one of the greatest grievances Ireland laboured under, and it was time it should be removed. The money swallowed up by presentments was little short of a million a-year, while the general revenue of the country did not much exceed four. By whom was this power exercised? By grand juries, appointed by the sheriff, who were anxious
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to receive emoluments themselves, or to procure them for their friends. What became of them, if their presentments were discovered to be improper? They were not to be found. The moment the mischief was done, they were dispersed all over the country—they were not tangible—they could not be grasped. Under the present system, one-half of a county was fleeced for the benefit of the other. This bill was intended to do away so disgraceful a system, and would, beyond a doubt, effectually put it down.
The Earl of Caledondefended the conduct of grand juries in the northern counties of Ireland, and observed, with respect to the expense of public works, that it was compulsory on grand juries to present for roads in Ireland. He was hostile to the general principle of this bill. If it were enacted, repairs would take place only during the summer assizes, and not when they might become necessary.
The Earl of Blessingtonobjected to the bill, which he thought unnecessary or injurious.
The Marquis of Lansdownerose to support the bill, from a conviction of the importance and difficulty of dispensing the large sums of money which were to be disposed of by the grand juries of Ireland. The various duties of the grand juries of Ireland had so much increased of late, that it was impossible for them to discharge them to advantage. The public works had risen to such a height, and the amount of money to be expended had so much increased, that it was high time to impose some check on those who had the disposal of it. The restraints imposed by the bill were not probably the best that could be imposed; they were possibly of a nature which threw too large a patronage into the hands of the Crown; but precautions were also taken to obviate in some degree this inconvenience, and the restraints, if not thus applied, might be sought for in vain in other quarters. By a bill which had been passed in the last session, and which had been introduced by an hon. and learned friend of his (Mr. Horner), whose memory he should ever revere, as he had admired his talents and respected his private virtues and eminent public qualities—by that bill the business of grand juries in Ireland had been materially increased by compelling them to examine viva voce evidence. The consequence of this increase of business was, to disable the grand juries from investigating

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all their presentments; and indeed it appeared from the report of a committee of the House of Commons on this subject, that they neither had time to examine the presentments they voted, nor after they lad granted them, to inquire into the manner in which they had been carried into execution. He understood that a million of money was annually disposed of by grand jury presentments in public works. Without imputing to Ireland a greater degree of weakness than belonged to other nations, he could not avoid apprehending ill consequences from the temptation to dishonesty which the command of such a sum of money offered. This required some control, which the present bill provided.
The amendment was negatived; after which, the bill was read a third time and passed.