Lords Sitting of 18 February 1817

REPORT OF THE SECRET COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS RESPECTING CERTAIN DANGEROUS MEETINGS AND COMBINATIONS.
The Earl of Harrowby,President of the Council, presented the Report of the Committee of Secrecy, which he moved should be read. It was accordingly read by the clerk at the table; and is as follows:
By the LORDS COMMITTEES appointed a Secret Committee to inquire into certain Meetings and Combinations endangering the Public Tranquillity,
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and to report to the House as they shall see Occasion:
Ordered to report, that the Committee have met, and have proceeded in the examination of the papers referred to them.
Their attention was in the first instance directed to those which relate to the metropolis; and they have found therein such evidence as leaves no doubt in their minds that a traitorous conspiracy has been formed in the metropolis for the purpose of overthrowing, by means of a general insurrection, the established government, laws, and constitution of this kingdom, and of effecting a general plunder and division of property.
In the last autumn various consultations were held by persons in the metropolis engaged in this conspiracy. Different measures of the most extensive and dangerous nature were resolved upon; partial preparations were made for their execution, and various plans were discussed for collecting a force sufficient for that purpose. But at a subsequent consultation another plan was adopted, which was, to get a great number of men together to see what force could be raised; and it was agreed that the best way to get them together would be to call a public meeting.—Spa-Fields was fixed upon as the place affording the greatest facilities for entering the town, and attacking the most important points in the city. In pursuance of this design, and in order to assemble in the neighbourhood of London a great number of the poorer classes of the community, and particularly of those in whose minds the pressure of the times might be supposed to have excited disaffection and discontent, advertisements were inserted in newspapers, and hand-bills were industriously distributed, inviting the distressed manufacturers, mariners, artisans, and others to assemble at that place on the 15th of November. A large body of people accordingly assembled at the time and place prescribed. The most inflammatory language was there held to the multitude, having a direct tendency to excite them to outrage and violence; and the meeting was in fact followed by some acts of plunder and riot. A petition to his royal highness the Prince Regent was agreed to at that meeting, and an adjournment to Palace-Yard on the first day after the meeting of parliament was proposed; but the second of December was subsequently fixed upon (on the proposition of one of the persons concerned in the plans already
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described) for another meeting in Spa-Fields; and that day appears to have been determined upon for the execution of their design.
Various schemes were formed for this purpose. Amongst them was a general and forcible liberation of all persons confined in the different prisons in the metropolis; into some of which, in order to facilitate its execution, an address to the prisoners was introduced, assuring them that their liberty would be restored under a new government; announcing the intended attack upon all the prisons for that day; apprizing the prisoners that arms would be ready for them; exhorting them to be prepared with the national tricolor cockade, and to co-operate by the most violent and sanguinary means to ensure success.
It was also proposed to set fire to various barracks, and steps were taken to ascertain and prepare the means of effecting this purpose. An attack upon the Tower and Bank, and other points of importance, was, after previous consultations, finally determined upon. Pikes and arms to a certain extent were actually provided, and leaders were named, among whom the points of attack were distributed. It further appears that the interval between the two meetings was employed with unremitting assiduity by some of the most active agitators in taking regular circuits through different quarters of the town. In these they either resorted to the established clubs or societies, or laboured in conversations, apparently casual, at publick houses, to work up the minds of those with whom they conversed into such a state of ferment and irritation as to render them, when collected in sufficient numbers, for whatever ostensible purpose, the fit and ready instruments for the execution of any project, however rash and desperate. In the course of these circuits one of their chief objects appears to have been to take every opportunity of attempting to seduce from their allegiance the soldiers of the different guard and at the barracks. The principal persons concerned in this plan actually proceeded to Spa-Fields on the second of December, some of them with concealed arms, and with ammunition previously prepared; they had also provided themselves with tricolor flags, and with a standard bearing the following inscription: "The brave soldiers are our brothers; treat them kindly;" and also with tricolor cockades, evidently adopted as the signal
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of revolution. After much inflammatory language a direct invitation was by one of these persons addressed to the multitude to proceed immediately to actual insurrection. And it appears quite certain, that the acts of plunder which were perpetrated for the purpose of procuring arms, and the other measures of open insurrection which followed, were not accidental or unpremeditated, but had been deliberately preconcerted, as parts of a general plan of rebellion and revolution. There appears also strong reason to believe that the execution of those projects at that particular time was expected by some of the associations in distant parts of the country. The conspirators seem to have had the fullest confidence of success; and a persuasion has subsequently been expressed amongst them, that their plans could have been defeated only by casual and unexpected circumstances. Even after the failure of this attempt, the same plans appear not to have been abandoned.
Your committee are deeply concerned to be compelled, in further execution of their duty, to report their full conviction that designs of this nature have not been confined to the capital, but have been extended and are still extending widely in many other parts of Great Britain, particularly in some of the most populous and manufacturing districts.
At the meeting of the second of December in Spa-Fields, that part of the assembly which had not engaged in the acts of plunder and insurrection before-mentioned, came to a resolution to adjourn the meeting to the second Monday after the meeting of parliament, namely, the tenth of February; and it appears by the papers referred to the committee, that meetings in various parts of the country, conformably to a plan settled by the leading persons in London at an early period, were intended to be held on the same day.
It appears manifest that the persons engaged in various parts, both of England and Scotland, in forwarding the plans of revolution, have constantly waited for the example of the metropolis. Intelligence of the event of the meeting there on the second of December was anxiously expected; and as the first report of the beginning of the disturbance excited in a high degree the spirits of the disaffected, so its speedy suppression produced the expression of strong feelings of disappointment. Had it even partially suc-

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ceeded, there seems much reason to believe that it would have been the signal for a more general rising in other parts of the kingdom. Since that time it appears to be the prevailing impression amongt the leading malcontents in the country, that it is expedient for them to wait till the whole kingdom shall, according to their expression, be more completely organized, and more ripe for action.
What is meant by completely organizing the country is but too evident from the papers before the committee. It appears clearly that the object is, by means of societies or clubs, established or to be established in all parts of Great Britain, under pretence of parliamentary reform, to infect the minds of all classes of the community, and particularly of those whose situation most exposes them to such impressions, with a spirit of discontent and disaffection, of insubordination, and contempt of all law, religion, and morality, and to hold out to them the plunder and division of all property, as the main object of their efforts, and the restoration of their natural rights; and no endeavours are omitted to prepare them to take up arms on the first signal for accomplishing these designs.
It is on these grounds that your committee have been led to look with particular anxiety to the formation, principles, and conduct of those societies or clubs by which the ends of the disaffected have been hitherto so much forwarded, and are expected by them to be finally accomplished. Many of these societies pass under the denomination of Hampden Clubs. Under this title societies of very various descriptions appear to have been formed, all professing their object to be parliamentary reform. This name and their professions may have induced many persons to become members of such societies who may not be aware of the ultimate intentions of many of their leaders; and the committee would by no means ascribe to all these societies the same practices and designs which they have found to be but too prevalent amongst a large number of them; but they find that, particularly among the manufacturing and labouring classes, societies of this denomination have been most widely extended, and appear to have become some of the chief instruments of disseminating doctrines, and of preparing for the execution of plans, the most dangerous to the public security and peace.
Others of these societies are called
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Union Clubs, professing the same object of parliamentary reform, but under these words understanding universal suffrage and annual parliaments; projects which evidently involve not any qualified or partial change, but a total subversion of the British constitution.
It appears that there is a London Union Society, and branch Unions corresponding with it, and affiliated to it. Others of these societies have adopted the name of Spencean Philanthropists; and it was by members of a club of this description that the plans of the conspirators in London were discussed and prepared for execution.
The principles of these last associations seem to be spreading rapidly among the other societies which have been formed, and are daily forming, under that and other denominations in the country. Among the persons adopting these principles, it is common to disclaim parliamentary reform as unworthy of their attention. Their objects are avowed in a hand-bill dispersed by the society of that description in London, and in numerous other publications. These objects are, "A Parochial partnership in land, on the principle that the landholders are not proprietors in chief; that they are but the stewards of the public; that the land is the people's farm; that landed monopoly is contrary to the spirit of Christianity, and destructive of the independence and morality of mankind."
The societies under these different names are so numerous, and so various, that it has been difficult to obtain a complete view of all of them, or to comprehend them under any general description.
The country societies are principally to be found in and in the neighbourhood of Leicester, Loughborough, Nottingham, Mansfield, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Blackburne, Manchester, Birmingham, and Norwich, and in Glasgow and its vicinity; but they extend and are spreading, in some parts of the country, to almost every village. In addition to all the arts of seduction, resort is also had to a system of intimidation, and threats are held out to those who refuse to join. Their combinations are artfully contrived to secure secrecy in their proceedings, and to give to the leading members undisputed authority over the rest. Oaths of secrecy have been frequently administered, some of which are of the most atrocious and dreadful import.

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They do not, however, trust to this security alone to prevent discovery; their proceedings are seldom reduced to writing; they pass and are communicated by word of mouth. The more numerous meetings delegate all authority to a managing committee; and by that committee, and by meetings of delegates from the committees of different societies, every thing of importance is transacted.
The committees themselves are also cautious of reducing any of their proceedings to writing, communicating with each other only by delegates and missionaries.
It appears that, in some parts of the country, arms have been lately procured by individual members of these societies in considerable quantities, which can only have been done with a view to the use of force. Subscriptions are also generally required, which, although the amount paid by each individual may be very small, may produce, from the large numbers of the contributors, no inconsiderable fund.
The destructive objects which the leading members of these societies have in view are demonstrated by their publications and by their proceedings, all equally calculated to inflame the minds of the members, and in general of the poorer classes of the community. At the ordinary meetings of these societies, which are often continued to a late hour, their time is principally employed in listening to speeches tending to the destruction of social order, recommending a general equalization of property, and at the same time endeavouring to corrupt the morals of the hearers, and to destroy all reverence for religion. The landholder has been represented as a monster which must be hunted down, and the fund holder as a still greater evil; and both have been described as rapacious creatures, who take from the people fifteen-pence out of every quartern loaf. They have been told that parliamentary reform is no more than a half measure, changing only one set of thieves for another; and that they must go to the land, as nothing short of that would avail them. Another principal employment of their time is, to listen to publications of the same description as the speeches, containing the same doctrines, and leading to the same purposes; and the meetings are frequently terminated, particularly in London, by profane and seditious songs and parodies of parts of the liturgy, in
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which the responses are chanted by the whole company. By such means, and by the profession of open infidelity in which some of the members indulge in their speeches, the minds of those who attend their meetings are tainted and depraved; they are taught contempt for all decency, all law, all religion and morality, and are thus prepared for the most atrocious scenes of outrage and violence.
Amongst the most effectual means of furthering these dangerous designs, the committee think it their duty particularly to call the attention of the House to the unremitting activity which has been employed throughout the kingdom in circulating to an unprecedented extent, at the lowest prices or gratuitously, publications of the most seditious and inflammatory nature, marked with a peculiar character of irreligion and blasphemy, and tending not only to overturn the existing form of government and order of society, but to root out those principles upon which alone any government or any society can be supported.
The committee cannot but consider the late attack upon his royal highness the Prince Regent, on his way from opening the present session of parliament, as an additional and melancholy proof of the efficacy of this system to destroy all reverence for authority, and all sense of duty, and to expose to insult, indignity, and hazard the person of the immediate representative of the sovereign, even in the exercise of one of the most important parts of his royal functions.
It appears to be an essential part of the system to take advantage of the opportunities afforded by public meetings, convoked either by the leaders of these societies, or by others, in the metropolis, and in populous places and districts, to address the multitude in terms of unprecedented license and violence, amounting even in some instances to an open declaration that, in case of non-compliance with their petitions, the sovereign will have forfeited his claims to their allegiance. These proceedings are subsequently printed and circulated, and thus become a fresh vehicle for sedition and treason.
By the frequency of these meetings, and by the new practice of continuing them (under various pretexts) by frequent adjournments, the minds of his majesty's well-disposed and peaceable subjects are held in a state of perpetual agitation and alarm. The appointment of such public

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meetings in a variety of different places on the same day appears to be considered as the most effectual means of accomplishing the designs of the disaffected, and must evidently in a high degree embarrass and impede the exertions of all civil powers applicable to the suppression of disturbances, distract the attention of government, and oblige them so to subdivide and harass the military force which it may be necessary to call in for the assistance of the civil power, as to render it inadequate to the maintenance of public tranquillity.
Such a state of things cannot be suffered to continue without hazarding the most imminent and dreadful evils; and although the committee do not presume to anticipate the decision of parliament as to the particular measures to be adopted in the present emergency, they feel it to be their duty to express their decided opinion that further provisions are necessary for the preservation of the public peace, and for the protection of interests in which the happiness of every class of the community is deeply and equally involved.
The Earl of Liverpool The Earl of Liverpool moved, that the report be taken into consideration on Friday, and that the Lords be summoned.
Earl Grosvenorsaid, that he felt it impossible, and he thought their lordships must feel it impossible, to come to any determination upon the mere report of a committee, however unanimous that committee might be. He hoped they would see the propriety of requiring not only, that the report should be laid before them, but that all the papers and documents upon which that report was founded, should in like manner be submitted to the investigation of parliament. Whatever disaffection existed, or whatever outrages had taken place, be was persuaded the House would feel that the laws of the country were sufficient to put them down. No man could, he thought, be considered a friend to his country, who, without a case of the most urgent necessity to justify him, could recommend the adoption of measures injurious to the liberty of the subject.
The Earl of Harrowbysaid, that on this occasion the course had been adopted which had, under similar circumstances, been adopted on former occasions. He had always understood, that one of the objects of parliament in referring papers to a committee of secrecy was, that a greater degree of trust might be reposed
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in such a committee than in one constituted in the ordinary way; and that it was to be left to the discretion of the committee whether the evidence ought or ought not to be laid on the table. In many cases it was obvious, that the production of the information on which the report was founded might have the effect of counteracting the objects which parliament might have in view in adopting this course of proceeding.
The House was ordered to be summoned for Friday.

PETITIONS RELATING TO REFORM, &c
Lord Hollandstated, that he had some petitions in his hand, grounded on the distressed situation of the country, to be presented to their lordships house. The first was from the lord mayor, aldermen, and livery of London. Notwithstanding the report which had been just read, he trusted the House would listen to the complaints of the people with indulgence, and the more especially in consequence of that report, would do nothing to discourage the exercise of the right of petitioning the two Houses of Parliament. Whatever might be the allegations and statements in petitions, if they were couched in respectful language, their lordships had always been willing to receive them. If there were, indeed, such practices as were stated in the report, then it was the policy of the House to receive with the utmost indulgence the expression of the opinions of petitioners, whatever those opinions might be, if the petitions were couched in respectful terms. He did not say this, because, in the petitions which he was about to present, there was any prayer to which he could not in any degree assent: but even if the prayer had been for annual parliaments and universal suffrage, it would be a calumny to say, that on that account merely, the petitioners had a design to subvert the laws and constitution of the country. His opinion was decidedly opposed to any such plan of reform as that; but when the people were in a state of such distress, looking to the right and to the left for relief, and formed erroneous opinions of what would best contribute to their relief, that error would be best pointed out by discussions in parliament; and if the one-half or one-fourth of what was stated in the report, was true, the ministers were deeply responsible for not assembling parliament at an earlier period. It was, however, matter of great satisfac-

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tion, that at all the public meetings that had been lately held, the people had always agreed to petition parliament; and as long as they did thus agree to petition the legislature, it was a strong indication that the constitution was safe. The people, by thus petitioning, acknowledged that it was to parliament they ought to look for relief, and nothing could be so dangerous as an impression among the people that it was in vain to make their complaints to parliament. As to the petition which he now had to present, if there had been no other name to it but that which first appeared, it would be entitled to serious consideration. The name was Wood, the present lord mayor of London; a gentleman who not only held the situation of chief magistrate of the first metropolis in Europe, but had also united the suffrages of his fellow-citizens in his favour to an extent almost unprecedented, who had employed his well-deserved popularity in enforcing the laws, and had exerted himself as a magistrate in the suppression of disorder and tumult, certainly not less strenuously than those more in favour with the government. It was signed also by other aldermen, and by some of the livery, who, as they had shown by their conduct throughout their whole life, that no consideration would induce them to sacrifice the liberties of the people, had lately also proved that they were incapable of yielding up at the summons of clamour the real interests of their country. As to the existence of the evils chiefly complained of, he wished he could disagree with the petitioners. Some mention was made of the causes of these evils, but it was not now that the causes could be completely investigated. When, however, they in parliament talked of delusion spread among the people, they ought not to forget that delusions might be and had been practised on parliament itself on these subjects. The ministers had often said in parliament—"We foresaw all this; it is merely the natural effect of a transition from a state of war to a state of peace£" But had these consequences been foreseen at the time of a former peace, signed by the noble earl opposite; a peace very different in its terms from that which had now been concluded The ministers now said, that they foresaw all this distress. If they did, then they practised a gross delusion on parliament and the public; for in the Speech from the throne, at the opening of the last session, they had stated, that the agricul-
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ture, manufactures, and commerce of the country, were in a flourishing condition. They did not, therefore, foresee the present distresses as the natural effect of the transition; or if they did, they practised a gross delusion on parliament and the public. That these petitions were a true indication of the state of feeling in the country there could be no doubt. Never in his memory had the country been in such a state of distress, and it was natural that parliament should be called upon to adopt some measures for their removal. The petitioners here spoke to the House in a respectful and temperate tone; they disclaimed the wild and visionary scheme of universal suffrage, and also of annual parliaments, which he also disapproved, though without confounding that with the other. It was curious, that, though the subject had often been discussed in parliament, this scheme of annual parliaments and universal suffrage, as claimed on the ground that it was the right of the people by the constitution, had never been completely confuted, probably because it had always been considered as too absurd and groundless to need confutation; and he had no hesitation in saying, that he thought the grounds and principles on which this claim was made was more dangerous than the claim itself. The people had been told, that universal suffrage and animal parliaments were their right by the law and constitution of their country. Now, if he were called upon to point out one particular above all others, on account of which the people of this country were superior to the people of any other country that he had ever seen, he would mention that rooted respect for the laws for which the people of England were remarkable; and nothing, therefore, was more calculated to make a deep impression on them, than to be told that they were by law entitled to that which they were not permitted to enjoy. It was of the greatest importance, therefore, to convince the people, that the grounds and principles on which, such visionary schemes rested were completely erroneous. As to universal suffrage, that was the wildest fancy that could possibly enter into the conception of any human being; and as to annual parliaments, the people were not entitled to them by any law, and more particularly not entitled to them by, the common law. All the acts of parliament which had been referred to, from the earliest times down to the long parliament, including the act

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of the 16th of Charles 1st, had for their object, not the limiting of the duration, but the frequent holding of parliaments. This was the object of all these acts, beginning with the 5th of Edward 2d; and, in one respect, he wished that our modern acts had more resemblance to them, for they were very short, hardly above four lines each. All of them spoke of parliaments to be frequently "holden," not frequently "chosen;" and even at present, the expression "holden" would apply rather to the assembling than to the choosing of parliaments. But when they came down to the time of the long parliament, and looked at the preambles of the acts, they would find, that the reasons applied to the frequent meeting, and not frequent choosing of parliament; and to whatever excesses the long parliament had at last resorted, it ought to be recollected, that several persons, the best acquainted with the principles of our constitution, such as Coke and Selden, were members of that parliament. It was true, that few of these early parliaments sat for more than a year; but even the parliament which passed the act of the 5th of Edward 2d, for; the frequent holding of parliaments, sat for two sessions, and was itself prorogued, and the king was understood even then to have the right to prorogue.—Other opportunities would occur for the discussion of these points; but it appeared to him of importance not to suffer this opportunity to pass without throwing out these few observations. The prayer of the petition was for a reduction of the public expenditure, the abolition of sinecures and useless places, some extension of the elective franchise, and some alteration in the duration of parliaments. On these latter points he gave no opinion at present; but all men of sound judgment agreed, that reduction was necessary, to a much greater extent than had as yet been proposed by ministers. He was not, however, one of those who thought that no alteration for the better could possibly be effected in our system of representation. It was too much to say of any human institution, that it could not be amended: but when he considered the variety of opinions among those who called for parliamentary reform, he was under some apprehension that the object was not attainable at this moment, and that the subject was not in a state to enable even parliament to decide satisfactorily upon it. But, in the mean time, the attention of
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the people ought not to be diverted from the object of diminishing the means of influence and corruption—a species of reform which might be immediately carried into effect. He was very far from agreeing with those who held out that no good could be done without parliamentary reform, though he admitted that some alteration in the system of representation might be beneficial, especially in the northern part of the British island. But reform would not pay the national debt, feed the hungry, nor prevent improvident wars. He had another petition to the same effect as the first, from the inhabitants of the ward of Aldgate; and a third from the burgh of Rutherglen. This last petition also prayed for reform, but chiefly for retrenchment, and stated our improvident wars as one great cause of the present distress, and to that assertion he requested the particular attention of the House. The present situation of the country was this:—We had a revenue almost beyond the endurance of a loyal people; an expenditure beyond that revenue; and we acted on a system of foreign policy, and also of domestic policy, if Ireland were included, beyond that expenditure; and no real and permanent good would be done, till our revenue should be reduced in a degree commensurate with the depressed situation of the country, and our expenditure should be reduced below our revenue.
The petitions were then read.
Earl Greystated, that he held in his hand a petition from the lord mayor, aldermen, and commons of the city of London, in common council assembled, alleging the same grievances, and directed to the same objects as the one lately presented by his noble friend. The respectability of the body from whom the petition he was now about to present, would make its due impression, he was aware, on their lordships' consideration. They state, under the strong feeling of unexampled distress, that the country felt, that the grievances of which they complain were not of a temporary character, but arose from causes more deeply rooted, and of progressive strength, which they trusted that House would be inclined to consider, and prompt to alleviate. They complain of an exorbitant expenditure, of a standing army, a burthen on the nation's finances, and dangerous to the people's liberties. Amongst other remedies, they pray for a strict and rigid system of economy and retrenchment, and for a practical reform in

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the constitution of parliament—disclaiming, at the same time, any participation in those wild and visionary theories, that on the same question have been projected by other persons. With respect to these most deserving measures of economy and reduction, it was now not necessary for him to refer to them. In the course of the last session, when the growing difficulties of the country were submitted to the consideration of parliament, he had discussed those efficacious remedies; and since the assembling of their lordships he had gone rather at some length into a review of these subjects. There remained only the one point to which the petition referred, that of parliamentary reform, upon which he was anxious to offer a few observations, because to that subject, in the early part of his public life, he had given an active and persevering attention, and therefore it was that in expressing his present conviction, he wished not to be misunderstood. In common, therefore, with the petitioners, and with his noble friend who had argued the point with such historical accuracy, he most fully disclaimed the project of annual parliaments and universal suffrage. His noble friend had shown to the conviction of that House, that such doctrines never were acknowledged by the constitution. That they never would become a part of the constitution he most sincerely hoped. Though not disposed to impute to every man who held such doctrines improper or sinister designs; though aware that it has been entertained by some individuals of irreproachable character, and was first broached in the country by the distinguished and highly respected Granville Sharp, yet in his conscience he believed that its realization would not only be unattended with any salutary and beneficial improvement, but would lead to the subversion of all that this nation, over every other part of the world, enjoyed. Such, as he had before stated, never was the principle or the practice of the constitution. But in asserting that fact, he did not, in judging of the proposition, feel it at all necessary to make out that case. Could it even be established that universal suffrage and annual parliaments had been the practice of the constitution in remoter periods, that acknowledgment could form no ground for the adoption of such a course in the present time. To what monarch, to what assembly, were mankind of ascribe that infallible wisdom
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that indefeasible power, by which posterity were to be bound down implicitly? But of all classes of society, this denial of the right of dissent was least to be expected from the very men who, in furtherance of their views of reformation, would limit and restrict the legislative power of a country to what was supposed to be once the practice of the constitution. When men spoke of the rights of the people, in what did they mean those rights to consist? Those rights were the liberty and security of the subject. Laws and institutions were only the modes by which these two human blessings were best guaranteed. The character, therefore, of those means would depend—they were only admirable and salutary, as far as they tended to uphold the existence and secure the permanence of those invaluable rights. The true question under the present circumstances was, whether it was desirable to adopt such a change in the system of representation, as was best calculated to provide for the public liberty and security? It was natural, he felt, that the people should look, under the pressure of unparalleled distress, to every measure likely to procurd redress; but in making that admission he could not conceal from himself, that in the very anxiety for that redress, they were ready to subscribe to plans and systems of reform, without particularly weighing the specific merits or applicability of such propositions. But though they had not fully deliberated on such questions, they could not be insensible to those admitted abuses and flagrant anomalies which, from the time of Mr. Locke down to the present period, had excited public odium, and the existence of which he felt persuaded had no more baleful tendency than to weaken the authority and undervalue the character of parliament. To that plan of parliamentary reform proceeding on the principles of the British constitution, and limited by a sound and provident discretion, he was a sincere friend, because he believed that in addition to the correction of such abuses as described, it would also tend to dissipate the discontent that now from many causes so generally prevailed. And here he was willing to admit, that he was not disposed to carry his views of parliamentary reform to the same extent as when in early life he had applied his mind to the consideration of that important subject. He trusted he should ever possess the manliness fully to avow any change of

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opinion that a more mature judgment had effected. No fear of misrepresentation, no apprehension of unpopularity, should ever induce him to equivocate with his settled conviction. It was not on the spur of the occasion that he now ventured to express his opinions. It was in the recollection of their lordships, if the observations of so humble an individual left any impression, that in the year 1810, on a motion introduced by himself to take into consideration the state of the nation—a motion, in discussing which, he then endeavoured to explain the causes of the distresses at that time, and which now in progressive increase have produced the dreadful evils of this day; he had expressed, that there was then a considerable modification in his opinions on the subject of parliamentary reform. He dwelt on this subject the more strongly, because he found that the petition which he had the honour to present, took for its basis of reform, the very same basis that he had himself adopted at a period of life, when hope was more sanguine, and the necessity of change was less tempered by caution. The extension of the right of voting to householders paying direct taxes, was that basis. His impression now was, that so sudden a change in the frame of the constitution was more liable to produce dangers than had entered into his contemplation under more sanguine anticipations. He therefore wished to be understood as the friend to that plan of reform that would remove and correct all those abuses, which had been reprobated successively by Locke, Blackstone, lord Chatham, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Fox, and even by Mr. Burke, who in his speech on the American war, had so justly described them as the shameful parts of the constitution. Admitted, as they were, it was not surprising that the people should look with abhorrence at so marked a deviation from the original principles of the constitution. Whenever the other House shall deem it expedient, in the shape of a proposed law, to forward for the consideration of their lordships such a measure, to the extent he had stated, he was willing to accede. He felt it both salutary and desirable, that when the House was most probably about to be called upon to pass new laws, arising out of discontent and conspiracy, that parliament ought to evince a willingness to meet the fair prayer of the people, and remedy those abuses in our system which have sprung from the decays of time, and
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the consequences of corruption. He could not, however, acknowledge this reform in the system as a sine qua non, or that without it, as the petitioners alleged, nothing could be done for the people. Constituted as it now was, he in his conscience believed, that the House of Commons was of all other institutions in all the other countries of the world, the institution best calculated for the general protection of the subject. Supported by the people in temperate and firm claims for redress, it was not only able but certain to remedy every wrong. It was capable to act as the most efficient control upon the executive, by diminishing the means of corruption, and reducing the pressure of a severe and grinding taxation.
Earl Grosvenorstated, that after the able speeches of his two noble friends, he was not inclined to trespass on the attention of their lordships. He was urged to one observation, because it struck him that his noble friend who spoke last, seemed to misconceive the meaning of the petitioners. When they expressed the opinion, that without parliamentary reform nothing in the shape of redress could be expected, it was not, in his judgment, that they disapproved of the other remedies, but that from the conduct of his majesty's government they had no hope of receiving them. From every thing that had passed, they entertained no hope that the distress under which the country suffered, would make any impression in that quarter. Had any real reduction taken place, were there even a disposition evinced to reduce the burthens, and to correct the flagrant abuses, they would not probably have deemed it indispensable to press parliamentary reform to the extent that under the unchecked continuance of abuse, they now felt necessary.
The petition was ordered to lie on the table.

FRENCH LOAN.
The Earl of Lauderdalesaid, that when he on a former occasion put a question to the noble lords opposite, whether or not they had taken any measures to convey the opinion of ministers to the individuals about to lend their capital to the French government, something had fallen from them that went to show that some communication had taken place. Under that impression he had then given notice of his intention to move for copies of all communications, which had passed upon the subject. Be-

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fore he proceeded further, he wished to be understood as solely restricting his observations to the conduct of government. With respect to the sacred right of individuals to dispose of their property, it was unquestionable; indeed, he would say, that it was perhaps the best thing for the country that the holders of property should actually, at their own discretion, dispose of it to the best advantage. So far from arraigning any disposition of it by individuals; he was convinced that the embarking money in the line that brought the most profit, was, in the end, most beneficial for the general welfare. It was a far different question to consider whether the disposition of such property in the funds of a foreign nation, arose from the encouragement of the government, or was solely the act of the individuals themselves. It was to the nature of that encouragement that he pressed his motion. Instances were to be traced in our history, when the artificial effects of financial regulations, such as the sinking fund, had made it necessary to call for legislative provisions. It had been the practice of the noble lords opposite to attribute the foundation of the sinking fund to Mr. Pitt; upon what grounds was to him unintelligible. The distinguishing feature of Mr. Pitt's sinking fund was, that it paid off a much smaller proportion of debt than any of those that before existed. When in 1716 sir Robert Walpole established his sinking fund, money became from its operation so abundant, that the interest progressively declined from 6 to 5 and 4 per cent. In 1727 the rate it bore was four. In two years afterwards the minister, from the encouragement to send the disposable capital abroad for higher interest, brought in a bill preventing the loan of money to foreigners. The policy of this day was different: the treaty of 1814 actually afforded the encouragement to take capital out of the country, and invest it in that of foreigners. By a provision in that treaty, commissioners were appointed to determine the amount of balances between this country and France, relative to the maintenance of prisoners of war, although in a subsequent part, the claim of this country regarding the balance due, was wholly given up to France. Then why were the commissioners appointed? The thing was not capable of explanation; as in point of fact, the balance due to this country from France was considerably greater than that of France against us.
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Why had not the balance been demanded, and the British creditors of France at once indemnified out of the treasury? If loans such as these were encouraged, it would be impossible ever to have an efficient sinking fund in that country. And were they not encouraged by the treaty of 1814? After the stipulations of that precedent how was it possible to refuse the same guarantee to any future creditor? On what principle could a distinction be drawn? Besides, there arose from the circumstances of the transaction, an additional reason against any refusal. The money secured by the treaty of 1814, was borrowed by France to carry on hostilities against this country. The money about to be advanced now, was for the purpose of enabling her to fulfil her engagements with Great Britain. He could not imagine any other cause for that strange clause in the late treaty, but that it might operate as a sort of bonus to the capitalist to lend his money to a foreign state. It was therefore most essential to see what were the nature of the communications between government and the individuals. Every side of the House must be aware, that in no part of our previous history was this country involved in greater financial distress. It had been his province at various times to attract the attention of their lordships to one great branch—the alteration in the circulation of the country. Amongst the causes assigned by the bank directors for the restriction of cash payments, great stress was laid by them on the advances to government, and the foreign loans. How would these foreign loans operate, when the bank would be so shortly obliged to pay in specie? The truth was, that if such a system was persevered in, the act of parliament for that object would be only so much waste paper. But then the noble lord opposite would answer that the sum about to be advanced from this country was extremely small. Did he not recollect, that in the correspondence with the bank the loan even of the sum of 300,000 l. for Ireland, to be raised in this country, was assumed to promise a most prejudicial operation. Had the noble lord considered what the rate of interest was in foreign countries? Was it not higher than here? And if therefore any thing approaching to encouragement was held out it was in the nature of things that money would go from the country where the interest was lowest.—It was said, that the credit of this coun-

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try was so firmly established, as to render any alarm on that subject unnecessary. If, however, the price of the funds were taken as a criterion, it would be seen that they bore by no means such a proportion to the rate of interest on common mercantile transactions, as they had formerly borne, and that in fact, money vested in government securities procured a higher rate of interest than if vested in private securities. It was well known, that the rate of interest at which bills of exchange were at present discounted, did not exceed 4 percent. If a government security were deemed equally good, it was evident that the three per cents, would have been at 75. When such a disparity existed it could not be denied, that die credit of the country was affected. Notwithstanding the state of our own funds, he did not wish any means to be taken to restrain capitalists in the disposal of their money; but as the evident tendency and effect of the article of the late treaties with France, in behalf of the English creditors of that government, was to give an encouragement to the investment of capital in foreign funds, which would not otherwise have existed, he wished to have all the correspondence which had taken place on that subject before the House, that they might be able to decide whether the government had given an antidote to the mischievous effects of its former measures, by a distinct declaration, that to insist on such conditions from France would form no part of our future policy. He was the more anxious that such a declaration should be made, as he recollected that the loans of the bank to other countries first brought its affairs into that disorder which led to the suspension of its cash payments. The noble earl then moved for copies of all official communications with his majesty's ministers on the subject of the loan lately negociated in France.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, the answer he had to make was short. There had been no official communications on the subject alluded to in the motion. He had however, no difficulty in stating, that the individuals concerned being at full liberty, like all other English subjects, to vest their property in the manner most convenient to themselves, had received from his majesty's ministers neither encouragement nor discouragement The government of this country were not parties in the concern, they had entered into no engagement, they had given no guarantee, present or eventual, with reference to the transac-
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tion. The loan, indeed, could not be said to be negociated in England. It was a loan of the French government with certain great houses in Europe, in which indeed one of the great banking houses in this metropolis had taken an important share. But the noble mover had said, that under the peculiar circumstances of the case, the loan should not merely have been not encouraged, but should have been discouraged. He (lord Liverpool), in the exercise of his discretion, had not thought it consistent with his public duty to discourage that transaction, though he felt it right the individuals should understand that they entered on their own responsibility into this transaction. The peculiar circumstances on which the noble mover had recommended a departure from that which he acknowledged should be the ordinary policy in such cases were two. The first, the articles in the two last treaties with France; the second, the laws relating to the sinking fund. The articles in the treaties referred to, were those in which the government insisted on a compensation for the losses of British creditors of France, by the reduction of the funds in consequence of the revolution. Now, with regard to these articles, it had never been admitted even upon general grounds, that individuals had a right to expect the same, or similar articles to be inserted in other treaties to be concluded possibly and most probably under very different circumstances from those under which the former ones had been concluded. But there were some peculiar circumstances which entirely removed the danger of the articles being drawn into precedent. Had the noble mover forgotten that in the commercial treaty with France concluded in 1787, the very first article stipulated, that if at a subsequent time the relations of peace should be disturbed, one year after the declaration of war should be allowed to the subjects of each county, to withdraw their effects from the other country. The consequence of that article was, that many British subjects did invest their money in the French funds. The peculiar nature of the war which afterwards broke out, and the general confiscation of property in France, prevented that article from being carried into effect. Now he did not mean to say, that this article in the treaty of 1787, gave the creditors an absolute right on the protection of this government; but it gave them a strong claim to be taken into consideration in the

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formation of the new treaty, if that could be done without sacrificing greater interests. It was, however, quite impossible that the contractors of the present loan could set up any such claim. If, therefore, there was nothing in the general policy of the country which should induce the government to discourage such a loan, there was certainly nothing in its peculiar circumstances which should render it necessary. It was evident that the articles in the late treaties, founded on the consideration of the article in the commercial treaty, and the losses into which individuals had been led on the faith of it, could form no precedent for any future negociations.—The second ground of the noble mover was the operation of the laws respecting the sinking fund. The noble earl had taken occasion to disparage the principles of the sinking fund, as he had before taken occasion to do, both in that House and in print. He had stated, that no merit was due to Mr. Pitt for the principle of the sinking fund, for, it had been established long before his time. This was true; but what had been claimed for Mr. Pitt by his friends was, that in the course of a long, calamitous and expensive war he had adhered rigidly to the principles of the sinking fund, and had never stopped its operation. On this his merit was founded. When the finances were in a more flourishing state.—which though the noble mover did not anticipate, many others did confidently look forward to—the operation of the sinking fund on the money market would be most important. The noble mover thought it most impolitic to pay off a part of the debt, because the price of that which remained would be so much increased, and capital would thus be forced to foreign countries. The capitalists would not look, however, to the rate of interest merely, but to a combined consideration of the rate of interest and the security. He allowed that a great deal of capital would force its way to foreign countries. If the peace was long and the rate of interest reduced, that must be the necessary consequence; and it would be most unwise to attempt to prevent this overflow. The sinking fund would shorten the time in which the country would arrive at that state to which all countries would wish to arrive; he said "would wish," because the low rate of interest and the overflow of capital were the best criteria of the prosperity of the commerce and trade of the country. It would be a strange mode of rea-
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soning, to desire to overturn the system which would lead us to that result, because from this, as from all other good, some slight evils would follow. He allowed the rate of interest which money vested in the funds bore was greater than it should be expected to be, when compared with the usual rate of interest in mercantile transactions. If money thus vested did not produce more than four in the hundred, the three per cents, would of course stand at 75. But there were a variety of circumstances arising from the distresses of the times, particularly a desponding view of the state of the country however occasioned, which might have produced the present comparative depression of stock, without resorting to the supposition that credit was seriously affected. As to the committees in 1797, to which the noble mover had referred in support of his opinions, as to the causes of the former stoppage of payments at the bank, he (lord Liverpool) did not think so highly of the wisdom of those at that time examined as the noble mover seemed to do. We had now greater experience on that subject to direct our decisions. He did not deny that the great foreign expenditure at that time led to the suspension of cash payments—that it was fortunate, he did not doubt, in which he differed from the noble mover, but that it was necessary he was not persuaded. While he was on this topic, he thought proper to state, that as to what he had said in the last session on the resumption of cash payments, there had been nothing which he had then said on that subject on the fulfilment of which he did not now place the most entire reliance. He concluded by observing again, that the motion could have no effect, as no official communications with the contractors of the loan existed.
Lord Hollandsaid, that the noble earl who had just concluded, had not adverted to all the circumstances of the case. He had said, that all the peculiar advantages under which the last treaties were made, were not likely to recur. He thought, indeed, one circumstance should not be suffered to recur, namely, that the government of the country should buy two or three millions for individuals by six or seven millions out of the public purse. If the ministers of this country continued willing to give up seven millions for 2½ millions, they might be sure the French government would at all times be ready to admit such an article, and that even

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if they had been as successful in war as they had been unsuccessful, they would not have been at all averse to such a proposition. It was to prevent such a sacrifice of public to private interest from forming an encouragement to the transfer of capital to foreign countries, that measures were rendered necessary. The noble earl had omitted also one circumstance respecting the article in the treaty of 1787, though he had fairly acknowledged that it was not obligatory on this government. That article had been referred to by the British creditors of the French government, as affording them a claim to compensation, at the time the noble earl, and the government with which he was connected, concluded the peace of Amiens. The government of that day, and he believed the noble earl himself, treated this claim as extravagant, absurd, and inadmissible. Lord Auckland's treaty had thus been done away, not only by the lapse of years, and by the renewal of the relations of peace and amity in 1801, but by the disclaimer of the government, and now at this distance of time, it had again been raised up to entitle the holders of French stock, even those who had invested their money recently, to an indemnity, to be paid, not by the French government, but by the sacrifice of seven millions of British money. On the subject of the sinking fund the noble earl had also omitted one circumstance. The expenses of the past war had deprived us of all sinking fund in peace. The revenue was not sufficient, or scarcely sufficient, to cover the interest of the debt, and the expenses of the government, without any sinking fund. From this, as well as the other causes, it was most impolitic at this time to give a special encouragement to the capitalists pf this country to vest their money in the French funds. That the effect of the articles in the treaties was such, he thought, had been shown, and it was their duty to prevent their being drawn into precedent. It was hardly necessary for him to disclaim the vulgar and unfounded prejudice against the individuals so disposing of their money. They had a right so to dispose of their money, and were, of course, if they thought it advantageous, perfectly justified in doing so.
After a short reply from the earl of Lauderdale, the motion was negatived without a division.