Lords Sitting of 12 February 1817

ECONOMY AND REFORM.
Earl Grosvenorsaid, that he had waited in vain to see the ministers in their places, and therefore could not any longer defer bringing before their lordships subjects of great importance at all times, but particularly so at the present moment. He alluded to the topics contained in the various petitions that had reached parliament of late, and which were generally to the same effect, except in one respect, that relating to the extent of the reform of parliament; he found it absolutely necessary to take up a little of their lordships time, in detailing the nature of the notices he was about to give, as they were materially blended with the topics of their petitions, and as he was anxious, if possible, not to be misunderstood or misrepresented; not that he cared about misrepresentation himself, he had lived too long in the world, had known too much of political matters, not to be aware, that the people would occasionally misrepresent, when they had a pressing interest in so doing; he must therefore, in all such cases, trust to his consciousness of his warm attachment to the genuine principles of the British constitution; but although indifferent to it himself, yet when he reflected that what he had to suggest was intimately connected with the best interests, prosperity, and happiness of the country, he could not but feel a due anxiety on the subject.
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The petitions generally contained four points: retrenchment in the military, and also in the civil departments, the abolition of sinecures, and reform in the representation in parliament. Their lordships might recollect, that he had called their attention to the former subjects in the course of the last session, and had endeavoured, without success, to persuade them that it would be more consonant to their dignity, to refer their consideration to a committee of their own, rather than to a committee of three gentlemen proposed by ministers, who were respectable certainly in themselves, but too closely connected with their politics, to be free from constitutional jealousy and suspicion on subjects, particularly of this description. From the conduct of ministers during last year, he certainly had not augured favourably of their economical intentions. When parliament met this year, he had hoped, as an earnest of their intentions really to please and satisfy the country, that their first act would have been the reduction of the office of the third secretary of state with all its train of expensive establishment; but that boon was denied the country. Then as to the first point in the petitions, the reduction of the army, how did that stand? Why, so far from any hopes being held out of that nature, it was stated by ministers on the first day of the session, that so far from seeing the necessity of any such reductions, from the appearance of disaffection, it might be necessary rather to increase than diminish that branch of our expenditure. However, in a few days, an alteration seemed to have taken place in the minds of the ministers; for a reduction had been suggested in another place to the amount of between 20 and 30,000 men. Whether this was a proper reduction or no, was a subject he would not now touch upon, but leave to be brought forward by those who had so ably and forcibly discussed it on a former occasion. But in regard to the alleged disaffection, he must say, he trusted and believed it would turn out to be very scanty indeed, and that the words of the Speech from the throne would be borne out, that the main body of the people of this country were perfectly sound and loyal.—In regard to the second point, that relating to the civil expenditure, from what he had heard on the subject, he thought he should have some proposal to make to their lordships in the course of the session; for, if he was rightly

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informed, a committee had been appointed elsewhere to investigate that question, and of so little weight was it in the eyes of the public, that it was already denominated the humbug committee. If that were really the case, he could not expect much advantage from such a committee on a question so momentous to the happiness of a suffering but patient people, and therefore he should probably be obliged, in the discharge of his duty, to advance some of the questions under the cognizance of that committee, which questions he was informed might not be forwarded for three years to come, by the peculiar construction of that committee, and their lordships well knew that a dissolution of parliament would at once put an end to and frustrate the antecedent labours of such a committee.—As to the third point, however, the abolition of sinecures, lie thought, with the view that he had long taken of that subject, at the present moment it was particularly necessary to lose no time in bringing that subject forward, and therefore he had no hesitation in fixing that day fortnight for the purpose of introducing a motion in the shape of a resolution, for abolishing sinecures, and the grant of places in reversion; and he trusted that he should do it in such a shape as even to reconcile it to those who had taken part against these abolitions. Perhaps even the noble and learned lord intended such; but of this he was certain, that, should he even stand alone on the subject, he should never regret bringing it forward.—On the fourth point, that of parliamentary reform, he would also explicitly state his opinion. He had always been led to think, that the last plan proposed to parliament by that distinguished character, who had rendered so much service to his country, the late Mr. Pitt, was one that might be adopted with great benefit to the country; and if a bill, containing a plan of that description should reach that House, it would have his support. With regard, however, to universal suffrage, he would not be so uncivil as to call it universal nonsense, but he would call it universal impracticability; and in regard to annual parliaments, which some thought most constitutional, he had never so read the constitution; he had always considered, indeed, the annual holding of parliaments necessary to the preservation of the constitution, but not an annual dissolution and re-election of them. But because he dif-
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fered with others on that subject, was he therefore (as was well expressed by a noble person on a former evening, in a most eloquent and convincing speech) to wish to see those with whom he differed, imprisoned and gibbeted, hung, drawn, and quartered? Was he to wish to see a judge Jeffries, or one acting in the spirit and power of a judge Jeffries, placed on the bench, for the purpose of committing a legal murder on these people? For instance, should he wish to see major Cartwright, whom he understood to be a most respectable person, because he entertained such contrary sentiments, and endeavoured to propagate them through the country, should he wish to see his mouth closed, not by argument and fair discussion, but by the bloody hands of an executioner? The thought was shocking, monstrous, and diabolical.—In regard to triennial parliaments, however, he must fairly own, that since he had turned his thoughts of late more particularly to the subject, from the anxiety prevading all ranks of people on those topics, he had satisfied himself they were more constitutional than septennial ones; and, indeed, he must in truth say, that he considered the septennial act a direct infringement on the constitution, and a violation of the rights and liberties of the people. Indeed, he thought if justifiable at all, it could only be so from the danger of the times; or the danger of a disputed succession; and that as the danger passed away, it of necessity fell to the ground. The act repealed itself, and ought not to remain in the statute book. Therefore he would not shrink from declaring that it might possibly fall to his lot to introduce a motion on this subject, though it was more likely he would be anticipated by the introduction of it in the other House of parliament, to which those subjects more particularly belong. As the fortitude of the people had been great under their: difficulties and privations and sufferings, so had their conduct in all places, where meetings for retrenchment and reform had been held, been most exemplary; and, indeed, it was remarkable and even surprising that it should have been so, considering the great numbers that have been assembled in various places, and the warmth that naturally arises in large bodies when assembled from various quarters to discuss matters, where grievances are felt. This was at least no symptom of disaffection, and he trusted from such patient

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discussion much good would arise. The great anxiety he felt for the genuine purity and excellence of the British constitution, made him earnest in pressing these points on their lordships notice; and he sincerely hoped that the splendour of this bright political luminary, that had been partially dimmed by the mists of error and abuse, would be allowed, ere long, to re-assume its ancient dignity and glory. He had forgot to mention the report that had reached him, of the intention of a noble marquess, to renounce a large part of his sinecure. This renunciation might be very becoming, but he wished to get at the root of the evil, and therefore he proposed the motion he had suggested. This very renunciation showed the necessity of the proposal. His lordship concluded by moving that the Lords be summoned for that day fortnight.
The Lord Chancellorbriefly observed, that as the motion was the only thing which fell from the noble earl that evening that was not irregular, he should not oppose it.
The Lords were ordered to be summoned accordingly.