Lords Sitting of 4 February 1817

PRINCE REGENT'S MESSAGE RESPECTING CERTAIN DANGEROUS COMBINATIONS.
The order of the day being read, for taking into consideration the Message from the Prince Regent, which was brought down yesterday,
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Lord Sidmouthrose and said:—My lords; I rise to propose to your lordships an Address to his royal highness the Prince Regent, in answer to the Message which I brought down yesterday by his Royal Highness's command. My lords, it will be readily imagined by your lordships, that such a communication could not be made to this House, without strong feelings of pain and regret on the part of the illustrious person, by whose command it was submitted to the House. It is, indeed, my lords, a most afflicting consideration, that it should be announced to your lordships, to this country, and to the world, that information has been received, of certain practices, meetings, and combinations, tending to alienate the affections of his majesty's subjects, to endanger the public tranquillity, to bring into hatred and contempt his majesty's government, and to overthrow the whole system of our laws and constitution! and your lordships will, I am sure, readily believe, that such a communication could not, and would not have been made, except under circumstances of peculiar and inevitable necessity. My lords, if it should be your lordships pleasure, as I have no doubt it will be, to concur in an address to his royal highness the Prince Regent, in answer to his gracious message, such a one shall be proposed, as, I trust, will be considered proper, because it shall not pledge your lordships to any measure beyond the mere consideration of the papers. Under all the circumstances of the case, I shall propose to your lordships, that the information referred to in the message of his Royal Highness be referred to a committee of secrecy, and, in making this statement, I naturally feel, that it is not proper, it is not possible, that I should now enter into any explanation relative to the information contained in those documents. I shall also abstain from making any reference to any ulterior measures that may arise from the proceedings of the committee. On this point, my lords, nothing can be done, and nothing ought to be said, until the report of the committee, if it be your pleasure to appoint one, is laid on your lordships table. My lords, all I have to request of your lordships is, that you will abstain from making up your minds, if I may be allowed to use the expression, with respect to the course which it may be expedient, or inexpedient, to follow, after your lordships are in possession of the information which shall be laid before

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you. On this subject I will not say a word. All I ask of your lordships is, to suspend your opinions and judgments, until the Report is on your table—until you have an opportunity of reading and fully considering it. There is only one other observation, which I now think it proper to offer. It is this—that the communication made on this occasion, is, in no degree, founded on, or connected with, that shameful outrage upon the Prince Regent, which, I am sure, is contemplated, not by your lordships only, or by the other House of Parliament, but by the great body of the people of this country, with detestation and horror. If that outrage had not been committed, if that indignity had not been offered to his Royal Highness's person, his majesty's ministers, being in possession of the information which will be laid before your lordships this day, would have found it necessary to have submitted to your lordships those documents which are referred to in the message from the Prince Regent. My lords, I shall now content myself by moving, "That an humble Address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, to return his Royal Highness the thanks of this House for his most gracious message, and to assure his Royal Highness that this House will proceed to take the information, which by his Royal Highness's commands has been laid before them, into their immediate and serious consideration."
Earl Grovesnor.My lords, the noble viscount has undoubtedly made a most tremendous charge against a large portion of the people of this country. I trust that charge will not be sustained; but at all events, your lordships cannot but acquiesce in the proposition of the noble viscount, for going into this committee, after such a serious such a momentous charge. Of this, however, I am convinced, that, let the disaffection be great or trivial, it has been provoked by the disposition which has been manifested, on many occasions, by his majesty's ministers to their faces against every species of reform, and pertinaciously to oppose every thing like extended and efficient retrenchment.
Lord Holland.My lords, to the motion made by the noble viscount, and to the whole course of proceeding recommended by him, it is impossible, in my humble opinion, to make any objection, when a message of this nature has been sent down from the throne. The state-
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ment, that such serious communications were to be made, is quite sufficient to authorize your lordships to enter into the ordinary course of examinations hitherto adopted on such occasions. When meetings and combinations are stated to exist, by which the constitution of the country is endangered, the line proposed to be taken by the noble viscount is undoubtedly the correct one. I do not rise, therefore, my lords, to object to this proceeding. But still, I should not leave this House at all satisfied with myself, if I did not express the deep regret I feel on this occasion, that such a communication should be made, whether it has proceeded from improper practices on the part of individuals, or from the intention of any one, in power, or out of power, to create a false alarm, at this period, throughout the country. It was but yesterday that a noble friend of mine presented a petition to this House, containing a statement of severe personal grievance and oppression; which petition your lordships rejected.* And on what ground did your lordships reject it? On this ground—that the individual, so petitioning the House, had his redress at common law. I feel that the rejection of that petition was proper. But, I hope, that the same justice will be exercised in this case, as was manifested in that. I hope that the even hand of justice will deal out the same measure to the powerful as to the powerless:—and that, when the noble viscount says, that some proceedings have taken place, which demand the notice of parliament, he will go farther, and prove, that they are of such a nature as to preclude any redress by common course of law. This, at all times, is a principle, that ought to guide ministers in proceedings of this sort—but ought now to be particularly attended to. In a time of peace, when no apprehension can be entertained from a foreign enemy—in a time of dreadful distress amongst the people of this country, which naturally renders them anxious to see the legislature and the representatives of the nation conduct themselves in such a manner as to prove the substantial benefits of the constitution, by devising means for their relief—at such a period, measures of a harsh nature ought to be deeply considered before they are adopted. I perfectly agree in the observation of the noble viscount, that it is not fit, at the
* The petition of Thomas Dugood, see p. 183.

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present moment, to say any thing of the ulterior measures that may be proposed. I therefore trust, that those who may go into this committee will form their judgment and opinion on an unbiassed view of the nature of the case. But it would be, I think, a matter of deep regret, if the investigation of the practices alluded to in the Prince Regent's message, should, at this period, lead, in the judgment of your lordships, to the enactment of any law that may tend to abridge the liberty of the subject. It is unnecessary to say, in a British House of Lords, that any law, tending to abridge the rights of the people, is, at all times, an evil of very great magnitude. But, if that evil be more intolerable at one time than another, the present is the period, when, by the admission of noble lords on all sides of the House, the people are groaning under the most unparalleled distress—when, in consequence of that distress, discontent has been generated—when doubts have arisen with respect to the conduct of government, and a hope has been cherished (fallacious perhaps), that parliament can apply a remedy to the existing evils, more immediately effectual, than, when we go into a consideration of the subject, we may possibly find ourselves able to devise. And here I must remark, that the period when those practices and combinations are said to have been entered into, must be a matter of great importance, and worthy of particular notice, in considering the measures to be hereafter adopted, because, I have felt it a point of congratulation to see, during the last four or five months, large bodies of the people looking to parliament for a redress of their grievances—for relief from their distresses. It will be for the noble viscount to explain to the House and to the country, why, when such a disposition to look to parliament for redress existed, it has been prorogued from time to time— and why, when at length it has been called together, the first measure submitted to its consideration, at this critical period, has been one that implies distrust and jealousy of the people? I, my lords, will bring an unbiassed judgment to the consideration of this question; but I certainly think it a matter of fearful and discouraging omen, that this session should commence with such a proposition. I am ready to believe what the noble viscount has stated, that it is unconnected with the outrage on the Prince Regent which no person (whatever the danger of that out-
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rage really might be) can look to without abhorence and detestation; but I must regret, I must deplore, that any necessity should be supposed to exist for such a proceeding. I have felt it necessary, my lords, for many reasons, to say thus much at present. On former occasions, when the noble viscount has brought down messages of a similar nature, I must confess I entertained some expectations founded on the noble viscount's own moderation, that he would prevent any results fatal to the liberties of the subject, as the consequence of such communications. I own, that there are many circumstances, at present, that lead me to form rather a contrary opinion; and, therefore, I take this opportunity of stating to your lordships, the distress and wretchedness to which this country would be exposed, if the necessity of a law of the sort that is contemplated, should not be fairly and completely made out, to the satisfaction of every man in this kingdom, before the liberty of the subject should be in the slightest degree contracted or abridged.
The Earl of Liverpool.My lords, I do not mean to trouble your lordships with more than a very few words on this occasion. According to what has been said by the noble lords opposite, no difference of opinion exists as to the mode of proceeding recommended by my noble friend. I cannot think—whatever diversity of sentiment there may be, either with respect to the internal state of the country, or with reference to the measures to be adopted under that situation of things—I cannot, my lords, conceive, that a more proper, a more constitutional, or, I will add, a more liberal proposition, could be introduced, than that brought forward by my noble friend. The general circumstances, undoubtedly, to which the noble lord opposite has alluded, must naturally form apart of the consideration of the committee. But, it was the wish of government, in noticing those general circumstances, not to suffer the message, or the address in answer to it, to pledge parliament to any opinion whatever—either as to the necessity of any farther measures to secure the internal peace and tranquillity of the country, or as to the propriety of letting matters remain as they are. I am sure the noble lord who spoke last will agree with me, that if his majesty's ministers were in possession of the information stated in the Prince Regent's message, they could not have performed their duty

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in any other way so well as by bringing it before parliament, and, according to established precedent, submitting it to the consideration of a secret committee, so that no person should be bound to express an opinion, as to what should be done, or whether any thing ought to be done, until the circumstances were fully investigated. This is the course pursued on the present occasion. The House is not called on by the address to offer any opinion, and my noble friend has strongly desired, that no noble lord should prejudge the question, and form an opinion whatever it might be. I wish it to be therefore understood, that we go to this inquiry with unbiassed feelings. I hope that noble lords will restrain their minds from coming to a conclusion on this subject, until those who are on the committee have made their report, and they have all had an opportunity of seeing it, and of deciding fairly whether some ulterior proceedings should or should not be adopted. That decision will be formed, with every regard to the liberties of the subject—with a strong disposition not to infringe on the established laws of the country — with every tenderness to the feelings of the people on the one hand, but, on the other, with a firm determination to uphold the constitution at government of the country. With respect to what has been stated, by a noble earl, who says, that there is a tremendous charge made against a great body of the people of this country, I would ask the noble earl, where does he find that charge? — [Earl Grovesnor—"In the Speech."] Neither in the speech delivered on the first day of the session, nor in the message presented yesterday, and now taken into consideration, has such a charge been made. His royal highness, on the contrary, has been advised to declare, that the great body of the people of this country are loyal, and are arrayed against the attempts of disaffected and seditious persons, who might endeavour to draw them from their allegiance. My noble friend, who spoke last, adverted to the distresses of the time (which are admitted on all hands) as a consideration that should operate against the enactment of new measures. I admit the distresses of the time; but, if my noble friend considers the principle which he has advanced, he will perceive that it is not tenable. Designing men, I know, will be at all moments disposed to do mischief and create confusion, if they can j but my noble friend will al-
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low that it is not in time of peace and prosperity, when no distress is felt in the country that such efforts are likely to prevail and become successful. It must always be in time of difficulty, either internal or external, that such attempts can be successfully resorted to by the designing. What I am most anxious to do is this, to restate what is substantively contained in the speech from the throne; namely, that we are not disposed, for a moment to bring any charge against the great body of the people of this nation, whom I believe, most sincerely, to be firmly attached to the established constitution. But, my lords, we are not, on that account, to be insensible to the fact, that, in many periods of the history of this country, persons have been misled by the arts and delusions of others—and, therefore, the present state of things cannot be looked on with indifference. I trust, my lords, we shall not show that supineness and apathy which encourage danger, but that we shall keep our minds free from such feelings; and that, when the question comes regularly before us, we shall look at it without fear and without prejudice. We ought not to countenance any unnecessary infringement of the law, neither ought we to sacrifice, to mere names, that which is most essential to the security and well-being of the state.
Earl Grosvenor,in explanation, said, that the charge must be supposed to have been brought against a large portion of the people, otherwise it would have been idle and unnecessary to have called the attention of their lordships to the subject.
Earl Grey.My lords, to the course of proceeding mentioned by the noble secretary of state, and by the noble earl who has recently spoken, I do not know that any objection has been offered by my noble friends near me, nor, indeed, that any objection can be made. Undoubtedly, if it be true that his majesty's ministers have obtained information of practices that threaten danger to the constitution, it was their duty to communicate it to parliament, and they could not do so in a more proper mode than by adopting the course which had been pursued on similar occasions. Whether that information is of such a nature as to render this communication necessary—whether it is of so much importance as to call for so grave a proceeding—is what we shall hereafter have to decide on; when, on a full consideration of the case, the whole matter

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shall be brought before us. Until that period arrives, I shall suspend my opinion, as the noble lords opposite have desired me to suspend it; but, in suspending that opinion, I must, in common with my noble friend behind me, express my regret, considering particularly the situation in which we are placed, that any such necessity should have arisen, even in the minds of the noble lords opposite themselves. My noble friends, in mentioning the situation of the country and the conduct of the people, have stated nothing more than what is just and true. Perhaps there never was a time, when, suffering under such an amount of distress, when, labouring under the pressure of such severe calamity—affecting the highest and the lowest—the lowest weighed down by privation, which human nature can hardly any longer support—the highest impoverished by the calls of benevolence and charity, so universally displayed in relieving their less fortunate fellow-creatures;—perhaps, my lords, under so great an accumulation of misery, such exemplary patience, forbearance, resignation, and confidence in the existing constitution and government of the country, were never before exhibited. When we see this—when we see that these effects are produced by an unfeigned veneration for that constitution which we all love—but which I have rarely heard eulogized by the noble lords opposite, except as a preliminary to some invasion of it—when we consider that this forbearance, this patience, this resignation, afford the best proof of the benefit of our constitution, which inspires such confidence, and produces such temperate conduct—ought we not to be most cautious in agreeing to any innovation? The noble lords opposite called on the House to go into the examination without favour, without affection. I repeat the adjuration: and I call on your lordships to enter on this question without favour, without partiality, without fear; or, if fear should mingle with your deliberations, with at least as much fear and apprehension of weakening and impairing the liberties of the people, as of injuring the constitution. I think it is a most unfortunate circumstance, a most lamentable necessity, that, at this period of distress and misery, when no measure of relief has been adopted, when no one efficient measure of reduction and retrenchment has been carried into effect, but when, on the contrary, as has been
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truly stated by my noble friend (earl Grosvenor), every effort to obtain a reduction of the public expenditure, for which the people of England have unanimously called, has been met with rejection or evasion by his majesty's government— it is most unfortunate, that, at such a time, a measure should be proposed, which, there is too much reason to apprehend, may lead to some invasion or infringement of the people's rights. The noble earl says, he hopes your lordships will not employ yourselves in attending to mere names, while matters of substantial importance are abandoned. I hope, my lords, we shall not; but I also hope that you will consider what is the real state of the constitution, I trust you will consider, above all, looking to the circumstances of the time, as the noble earl calls on you to do, that you stand in a critical and difficult situation, in which precipitancy ought to be avoided, in which you ought to act equally for the security of the people as for the safety of the throne. The noble earl says, that at periods like the present, malignant and malicious spirits will be at work. This is true. But when, year after year, new powers are given to the crown—when we are daily arming the executive government with novel and unheard of authority—when, on the other hand, we know not of any new powers being added to those sanctioned by our ancestors for the security of the people— I hope we shall cautiously abstain from following up this system, and that we shall not continue to give fresh strength to the executive government, while we impair and weaken the liberties of the subject. Your lordships have marked the manner in which the people have behaved under the pressure of affliction and distress-distress which nothing but a proud confidence in the constitution could have enabled them to support. You will give them an additional reason for continuing to act as they have done, by preserving for them, unimpaired, the securities which the constitution has provided for them. That is a reward worthy of all their patience, all their resignation, all their forbearance. Nothing, my lords, but a necessity of the most imperative kind—a necessity of so paramount a nature, that it can be removed by no other means, should induce your lordships to interfere with the slightest particle of those constitutional barriers, which have hitherto protected the people, and which the

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experience of ages has sanctified. I shall not enter into any observations on the proceedings that may probably take place. I hope the result of this inquiry will be, not to introduce any coercive measure, which would be most improper and unjust, if not supported by the clearest and plainest necessity. I conjure your lordships to consider the case, when it is laid before you, with all the impartiality it requires; and, at the same time, with that sentiment, which, I trust, will ever be the paramount feeling in the heart of every British legislator—a determination not to trench on the liberties of the people; being well convinced, that such an encroachment is as great an evil, as any that may be apprehended from the effervescence of popular spirit."
The Marquis of Buckingham.My lords, I feel, in common with my noble friends, a sincere regret that it should be deemed necessary by his majesty's government to resort to a measure of this nature. The responsibility of proving that necessity rests upon ministers, and as far as they have gone, they are unquestionably entitled to the confidence of the House, that they would not have so proceeded without strong grounds to justify them. When at a future period those grounds come to be examined, tremendous will the responsibility be. I shall go to the inquiry with the dispositions so properly recommended by the noble lords on the opposite Bide. I shall enter upon it as I would enter upon the functions of a juror, in a case of life and death. When the period of investigation arrives, it will be necessary to satisfy me, not only that they shall be able to show that such difficulties have existed as they now state to exist, and that such combinations have been formed as they now represent to be in a state of activity; they must also prove, that the law as it stands at present, is insufficient to counteract the dangers to be apprehended from both. If that is not done, I shall say, that but half their case is proved. If they cannot show distinctly that the law, as it now exists, has been applied to, and found inadequate, the question of their defence will then resolve itself into this proposition unsupported by fact, that the greater the degree of distress, the greater should be the power of the law. If it is proved that the law was not sufficient to suppress the difficulties with which we are threatened, the case will then be made out, it will then appear to
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be necessary that this inquiry should be instituted, in order to determine what powers ought to be given, not to this or that government individually, but to any government in being at the time that such practices are discovered. No humanity can be more mistaken than that which would allow the people to become the dupes of designing individuals, to be misled by persons few in number but desperate in character, who, under the pretence of calling the attention of the people to their grievances, and the remedies for them, turn away their attention from their real grievances, and the real and true remedies, and fill their minds with imaginary grievances, and the most delusive, visionary, and dangerous plans of relief; with vain theoretical notions and schemes, which even when reduced to their utmost standard of moderation, will be found to be most mischievous, dangerous, and destructive to their own liberties as to the constitution of the country.
The address was agreed to.
Lord Sidmouth Lord Sidmouth then moved, that the papers on the table should be to-morrow-referred to a committee of secrecy, consisting of eleven lords, to be then chosen by ballot. This motion was agreed to.