Lords Sitting of 18 May 1815

TREATIES WITH THE ALLIES.
The House being met, pursuant to adjournment,
Earl Greywished to know whether it was in. the contemplation of his Majesty's Government to make any communication to the House on the subject of the Treaty of the 25th of March, signed at Vienna;
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and the other Treaties, which, though in substance, were not formally before the House.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that he believed he should on Monday be able to communicate those Treaties to the House, together with a Message on the same subject from the Prince Regent, and he should then move that the Message be taken into consideration on Tuesday.
Earl Greyobserved, that such a motion would be but a short notice on such an important question. He knew it was the custom of the House, when a message was delivered from the Crown, to come to the consideration of it with as little intervening delay as possible; but when that message referred to documents on which deliberation was necessary, before the House could reply to the message, some further time should be allowed. The Treaties, he supposed, would be communicated in form, which had already been laid in substance before the House. He wished to have explanation as to two points: The first question to which he wished to receive an answer, was, whether there was any substantial alteration in the Treaties which were before the House, or whether they had been ratified exactly in the state in which they had been laid before the House? He wished also to know, not only whether any alteration had been made in the Treaties, but whether the Allies had subjoined to their ratifications, any declaration or counter-declaration (on the subject of the explanatory declaration which had been affixed to the ratification of one of the Treaties, by this Government,) which might afford some new view of the Treaty? If any alteration or any such declaration had been made, it would be most material that further time should be afforded for consideration. There was another question, which the noble earl opposite could now answer, and which had some time since been put by a noble friend of his—as to the overture supposed to have been made by the present Government of France, to this country? The noble earl had on that occasion answered, that some communication had been made, but that it had been sent to the Allies at Vienna; and that before an answer was received from thence, no message would be brought down to the House. Now, before a question was decided which was to determine on the alternative of peace or war, it was necessary that the House should have be-

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fore it all proceedings, in the way of negociation, or all attempts at negociation, on either side, which had failed. This point it was hardly necessary to enforce; for when they were to decide on the propriety of war, it was obvious that the House should be in possession of all the circumstances by which it might by possibility be averted. If, therefore, there was no objection to the production of this information, the communication on Monday, with a notice for Tuesday, would hardly afford time enough for deliberation. As he had no wish to postpone the consideration of the question, except from a desire to be in possession of all the circumstances on so important a question, he should have no objection if the communication could be made to-morrow, with the documents to which be had alluded, to come to the discussion on Tuesday, or even on Monday; but if that information could not be laid before them till Monday, h thought some further delay would be convenient.
The Earl of Liverpoolobserved, that the usual method was to take into consideration a Message from the Crown on the first day of business after it was brought down. He believed, he should be able to snow, that no ground existed for a departure from the usual practice in the present instance. The ratifications of two of the Treaties had been received, duly executed; and of the third the ratification was not yet received, though notice was received that it had been ratified. The ratified Treaties were precisely the same as those which had already been laid, in substance, before the House. The declaration also which had been affixed by this Government to one of the Treaties, had met with the approbation of all the Allies. As to the communication from the Government of France, he had mentioned before, that an overture had been made, and that it was referred to the Allies at Vienna; and he had now to state, that no negociation would be entered into on that overture. Such being the state of the case as to facts, he thought no delay was necessary.
The> Marquis of Lansdowneobserved, that the nature of the overture from France was not known to the House; but it was material that it should be produced, before their lordships decided that the Government had acted properly in rejecting it.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid he had no objection to the production of it.
The Marquis of Buckinghnmsaid, it was necessary to know, not only whether the Allies had agreed to our Declaration, but whether they had subjoined any proviso to their own ratification.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that the Allies had subjoined no proviso.
Earl Greyexpressed a hope, that as there was no objection to the production of the communication from the French Government, it would be laid before the House.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that overture might be contained in a sheet of paper, and might be laid before the House either to-morrow or Monday.
Earl Greysaid, the Treaties then, as ratified, are precisely the same as those which are in substance before the House?
The Earl of Liverpool.Exactly the same.
Earl Stanhopesaid, that a very material piece of information had not been mentioned by the noble earl, but which it was necessary their lordships should have before them—the state of the finances of our Allies. Those finances were in a most miserable state, so that in the end he feared we should be obliged to pay all.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that lest he should have misled the House by what he had said, he should observe that subsidiary Treaties had been concluded, which would be laid before the House at the same time with the others.
Earl Stanhope.The noble earl has given no answer to my question, but has shirked it altogether.