The Marquis of Lansdownemoved, that the Report of the Foreign Slave-trade Bill be now received.
The Earl of Westmorelandrose to state1 his objections to the Bill, which had not been at all removed by any amendments which had been introduced since the subject was last under discussion. His lordship then re-stated the objections which he had before urged against the Bill. He was a friend to the principle of the Bill for two reasons; first, because it was but justice to our own West India proprietors and planters, that every exertion should be used to put a stop in other quarters to the Slave-trade, when we had abolished it as far as concerned our own colonies; second, because it was proper that having passed a law we should do that which was necessary to give effect to that law. The general object of the Bill he therefore approved; but he strongly objected to some of the means by which it was proposed to carry that object into effect, because, in his opinion, they were calculated to entrap the innocent. The Bill had two objects; first, to prevent the lending of British capital to be employed in the Slave-trade; second, the lending British money on the security of the estates in the foreign colonies; as money so lent on mortgage would be, in all probability, employed in this traffic. Now, if a person had already taken such a security, he would, on the passing of this Bill, be liable to the punishment, if he rested upon, that security, and yet it might be impossible for him immediately to change it. Then, if a person in this country had an agent or partner in the West Indies who lent money in this way, he might be rendered liable at least to trial and prosecution for the act of another. Matters of account, the most innocent transactions 849 in the world might be made the ground for a prosecution for felony. A man might entrap another to lend him money, and then employ that money in the Slave-trade for years. But if he could, by false testimony, or otherwise, procure the conviction of the lender of the money, he was, under this Bill, to be completely purged of his crimes, and quit of the debt. It was impossible for him not to look with alarm at such a provision. The principle of legislation, as he understood it, ought to be 'ut pœna in paucos, metus in omnes perveniat.' It could not be said of this Bill, that the pœna would fall only on few, but certainly the melus would fall upon all those who had property or transactions in the West Indies. And then the mode of trial was objectionable. A person residing here might be sent to the West Indies for trial, or if tried here, he must procure his witnesses from thence. Persons might be tried, too, by a commission, or before the jurisdictions in the West Indies, and on the coast of Africa; and his lordship stated, that three men had lately been tried before a surgeon at Sierra Leone, and sent to this country, a three-months voyage, in irons. It had been found that these men had not committed the offence within the jurisdiction, and they were discharged. Now, his objection was not to the punishment: let the punishment be what it would, they ought only to punish the guilty; and his objection to this Bill was, that it was a snare for the innocent. The noble marquis, and the other lords on the opposite side, were all alive when, in consequence of certain riots, it was proposed to extend the penal laws. The most rigorous investigation was called for. A noble friend of his (viscount Sidmouth) brought down the green bag in form, and the matter underwent the most anxious inquiry: but here was a severe penal law about to pass in the most crude and imperfect state. He understood that some further amendments were to be proposed, however; and not wishing to object to the principle of the Bill, he should only move, That the Report be taken into further consideration that day se'nnight.
The Marquis of Lansdownecould not agree to that proposition. All the amendments might be made now; and he himself intended to propose some amendments: one was, that the felony, with its consequences, should be left out, and that the offence should be punished as a misdemeanor, by transportion for seven 850 years. He had likewise introduced the words 'knowingly and wilfully' in several places, so as to guard the innocent, the knowledge and intention being necessary to constitute the offence. As to the green bag, he had no green bag to bring down for such a purpose. He admitted, that on the occasion alluded to, he was anxious that every investigation should be made in order to show the clearest necessity before enacting several penal laws. He did not recollect that he had the noble earl's assistance on that occasion. It had been said of an eminent historian, that his humanity never slept except when Christians were persecuted. He trusted it could not be said with justice of any noble lord in that House, that his humanity never slept when slave-traders were to be punished. But he admitted that the necessity must be clear, and in the present instance it was notoriously so. In the last four years, 4,000 slaves had been captured, which proved the great extent to which the trade was carried on.
The Earl of Westmorelandsaid, his objection to the Bill was not affected by the alteration. He was still apprehensive that innocent persons might suffer.
§ Earl Stanhopesaid, he had never seen a bill more inaccurately penned, and he thought the best way would be for his noble friend to prepare it according to his own wishes, and then move that it should be printed.
§ Lord Ellenboroughsaid, that when this Bill first met his eye, it was much more defective in mercy and in sense than any bill which he had ever known. Parliament ought not to be disgraced by such a bill. Because he might wish to protect the black man, he would not therefore subject the white man to indefinite prosecution and punishment. He doubted whether it would not be fitter to reject at once such a crude bill as the present, as the labour of reducing it to any thing like a proper shape would be incalculable. The Bill not only advanced at once to transportation for fourteen years, but several things were made punishable in this way which were not crimes at all. For instance, during the last war, several islands had surrendered to his Majesty's arms, and from this it might happen that the same person held estates in the islands of Jamaica and St. Thomas. Now, supposing him to convey slaves from his estate in St. Thomas to strengthen the hands on his estate in Jamaica, by the present 851 Bill this would subject him to the penalty of transportation for fourteen years. There was no excuse for bringing such miserable and clumsy performances before Parliament. While the Bill subjected men to the punishment of transportation for transactions which were perfectly innocent, a man might be exempted from its operations who was covered with the sin of the Slave-trade from the crown of the head to the sole of the foot. When men set themselves up for legislators, they ought not to act under the influence of blind passion.
The Earl of Liverpoolapproved of the principle of the Bill. It was an act of justice to the person who framed the Bill, to state that he was himself a West India proprietor, and could not be supposed to be actuated by any of the wild ideas which were entertained by some men on this subject.
§ Lord Redesdaleobjected to some of the clauses.
§ Lord Ellenboroughthought, if they allowed this Bill to struggle into life, it would afford an encouragement to send up bills without the ordinary members and limbs—without either sense or composition. He was afraid they would never be able to put down the Slave-trade, so long as the condition of slavery was allowed to subsist—the chasms of the black population would always continue to be supplied in some way or other which the law could not reach. But still that ought not to induce them to forego the discharge of their duties. The offence was contrary to the law of God; and it was their duty to endeavour, in every proper way, to prevent its commission.
After some farther observations from the marquis of Lansdowne, the earl of Rosslyn, lord Liverpool, and lord Stanhope, the Bill was ordered to be recommitted on Wednesday.