Lords Sitting of 16 June 1815

FREEHOLD ESTATES BILL.
Earl Greygave notice that he would on Thursday move the second reading of the Freehold Estates Bill. He was very desirous that the noble and learned lord who usually sat on the woolsack should be present at the second reading of this Bill, and he was not without hopes that the noble and learned lord would be able to attend on the day which he had named: but considering that this Bill had twice passed the other House—the first time by a great majority, the second time without any opposition to it—and considering also the advanced period of the session, he could not venture to defer the motion for the second reading beyond Thursday. If the noble and learned lord could not then attend, there would be others to state the objections to the Bill, if any objections could be stated to a measure which appeared to be founded on such clear and undoubted principles of equity and justice.
Lord Ellenboroughexpressed his hope that in case the noble and learned lord who usually sat on the woolsack could not attend on Thursday, the noble earl would be induced still farther to postpone the motion, for no man was better acquainted with the law of real property than that noble and learned lord; no man more capable of explaining to their lordships the fundamental change which the passing of this Bill would introduce into the system: but if the noble earl refused to delay it farther, and the noble and learned lord could not attend, then others would

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doubtless state the reasons why it appeared to them that the Bill ought not to pass into a law. It would be recollected that the noble and learned lord to whom he alluded, had in former sessions stated his objections to the Bill, and their lordships had refused to pass it.

EAST INDIA SHIPS REGISTRY BILL.
Viscount Torringtonsaid, that as counsel could not be heard that evening on the second reading of this Bill, as was intended, owing to the indisposition of one of them, he would not object to the Bill's being now read a second time, but would afterwards move, That counsel be heard on the commitment of the Bill on Tuesday next.
The Earl of Buckinghamshireobserved, that as the noble lord seemed to have no objection to the Bill being now read, and was desirous that counsel, under the circumstance to which he referred, should be heard in the committee on Tuesday next, he would not object to the proposed arrangement, and would move that the Bill be now read a second time.
The Earl of Donoughmoreobserved, that the proposition of a measure of such vast importance to the trade, the shipping, and navigation of the country, should be accompanied by some statement of the grounds on which it was brought forward. A statement of the kind had been given in another place; and he deemed it proper that that House should be informed of the grounds upon which so questionable a measure was brought forward.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that such was the intention; but as it had been proposed that counsel should be heard that day before the second reading, it was deemed the most regular time to make the necessary statement of the grounds, after the counsel were heard. It now appeared that, from the indisposition of one of the learned gentlemen, counsel could not be heard that day; and it seemed the intention, for general convenience, that the discussion should not take place till the next stage, when his noble friend, or some other of his Majesty's ministers in that House, would be prepared to state the grounds of the proposed measure.
The question was then put, and the Bill was read a second time. On the question for its commitment,
Lord Sheffieldsaid, he could not reconcile it to himself to suffer a Bill of such a nature to be read a second time in silence;
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as one more mischievous in its tendency, or more calculated to produce injurious consequences to the vital interests of the country, he never knew.
The Bill was committed for Tuesday.
Viscount Sidmouthcommunicated to the House a Message from his royal highness the Prince Regent, announcing his Royal Highness's intention of calling out the British and Irish militia, or such part thereof as might be judged necessary. His lordship thereafter moved an Address of Thanks in return to the Message, in the usual form, which was agreed to nem. con.

FOREIGN SLAVE TRADE BILL.
The Marquis of Lansdownemoved, that the Report of the Foreign Slave-trade Bill be now received.
The Earl of Westmorelandrose to state1 his objections to the Bill, which had not been at all removed by any amendments which had been introduced since the subject was last under discussion. His lordship then re-stated the objections which he had before urged against the Bill. He was a friend to the principle of the Bill for two reasons; first, because it was but justice to our own West India proprietors and planters, that every exertion should be used to put a stop in other quarters to the Slave-trade, when we had abolished it as far as concerned our own colonies; second, because it was proper that having passed a law we should do that which was necessary to give effect to that law. The general object of the Bill he therefore approved; but he strongly objected to some of the means by which it was proposed to carry that object into effect, because, in his opinion, they were calculated to entrap the innocent. The Bill had two objects; first, to prevent the lending of British capital to be employed in the Slave-trade; second, the lending British money on the security of the estates in the foreign colonies; as money so lent on mortgage would be, in all probability, employed in this traffic. Now, if a person had already taken such a security, he would, on the passing of this Bill, be liable to the punishment, if he rested upon, that security, and yet it might be impossible for him immediately to change it. Then, if a person in this country had an agent or partner in the West Indies who lent money in this way, he might be rendered liable at least to trial and prosecution for the act of another. Matters of account, the most innocent transactions

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in the world might be made the ground for a prosecution for felony. A man might entrap another to lend him money, and then employ that money in the Slave-trade for years. But if he could, by false testimony, or otherwise, procure the conviction of the lender of the money, he was, under this Bill, to be completely purged of his crimes, and quit of the debt. It was impossible for him not to look with alarm at such a provision. The principle of legislation, as he understood it, ought to be 'ut pœna in paucos, metus in omnes perveniat.' It could not be said of this Bill, that the pœna would fall only on few, but certainly the melus would fall upon all those who had property or transactions in the West Indies. And then the mode of trial was objectionable. A person residing here might be sent to the West Indies for trial, or if tried here, he must procure his witnesses from thence. Persons might be tried, too, by a commission, or before the jurisdictions in the West Indies, and on the coast of Africa; and his lordship stated, that three men had lately been tried before a surgeon at Sierra Leone, and sent to this country, a three-months voyage, in irons. It had been found that these men had not committed the offence within the jurisdiction, and they were discharged. Now, his objection was not to the punishment: let the punishment be what it would, they ought only to punish the guilty; and his objection to this Bill was, that it was a snare for the innocent. The noble marquis, and the other lords on the opposite side, were all alive when, in consequence of certain riots, it was proposed to extend the penal laws. The most rigorous investigation was called for. A noble friend of his (viscount Sidmouth) brought down the green bag in form, and the matter underwent the most anxious inquiry: but here was a severe penal law about to pass in the most crude and imperfect state. He understood that some further amendments were to be proposed, however; and not wishing to object to the principle of the Bill, he should only move, That the Report be taken into further consideration that day se'nnight.
The Marquis of Lansdownecould not agree to that proposition. All the amendments might be made now; and he himself intended to propose some amendments: one was, that the felony, with its consequences, should be left out, and that the offence should be punished as a misdemeanor, by transportion for seven
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years. He had likewise introduced the words 'knowingly and wilfully' in several places, so as to guard the innocent, the knowledge and intention being necessary to constitute the offence. As to the green bag, he had no green bag to bring down for such a purpose. He admitted, that on the occasion alluded to, he was anxious that every investigation should be made in order to show the clearest necessity before enacting several penal laws. He did not recollect that he had the noble earl's assistance on that occasion. It had been said of an eminent historian, that his humanity never slept except when Christians were persecuted. He trusted it could not be said with justice of any noble lord in that House, that his humanity never slept when slave-traders were to be punished. But he admitted that the necessity must be clear, and in the present instance it was notoriously so. In the last four years, 4,000 slaves had been captured, which proved the great extent to which the trade was carried on.
The Earl of Westmorelandsaid, his objection to the Bill was not affected by the alteration. He was still apprehensive that innocent persons might suffer.
Earl Stanhopesaid, he had never seen a bill more inaccurately penned, and he thought the best way would be for his noble friend to prepare it according to his own wishes, and then move that it should be printed.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, that when this Bill first met his eye, it was much more defective in mercy and in sense than any bill which he had ever known. Parliament ought not to be disgraced by such a bill. Because he might wish to protect the black man, he would not therefore subject the white man to indefinite prosecution and punishment. He doubted whether it would not be fitter to reject at once such a crude bill as the present, as the labour of reducing it to any thing like a proper shape would be incalculable. The Bill not only advanced at once to transportation for fourteen years, but several things were made punishable in this way which were not crimes at all. For instance, during the last war, several islands had surrendered to his Majesty's arms, and from this it might happen that the same person held estates in the islands of Jamaica and St. Thomas. Now, supposing him to convey slaves from his estate in St. Thomas to strengthen the hands on his estate in Jamaica, by the present

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Bill this would subject him to the penalty of transportation for fourteen years. There was no excuse for bringing such miserable and clumsy performances before Parliament. While the Bill subjected men to the punishment of transportation for transactions which were perfectly innocent, a man might be exempted from its operations who was covered with the sin of the Slave-trade from the crown of the head to the sole of the foot. When men set themselves up for legislators, they ought not to act under the influence of blind passion.
The Earl of Liverpoolapproved of the principle of the Bill. It was an act of justice to the person who framed the Bill, to state that he was himself a West India proprietor, and could not be supposed to be actuated by any of the wild ideas which were entertained by some men on this subject.
Lord Redesdaleobjected to some of the clauses.
Lord Ellenboroughthought, if they allowed this Bill to struggle into life, it would afford an encouragement to send up bills without the ordinary members and limbs—without either sense or composition. He was afraid they would never be able to put down the Slave-trade, so long as the condition of slavery was allowed to subsist—the chasms of the black population would always continue to be supplied in some way or other which the law could not reach. But still that ought not to induce them to forego the discharge of their duties. The offence was contrary to the law of God; and it was their duty to endeavour, in every proper way, to prevent its commission.
After some farther observations from the marquis of Lansdowne, the earl of Rosslyn, lord Liverpool, and lord Stanhope, the Bill was ordered to be recommitted on Wednesday.