HL Deb 06 July 1815 vol 31 cc1134-9

Their lordships having resolved into a committee on this Bill,

The Earl of Donoughmore

forcibly impressed upon the consideration of their lordships the propriety of affording time, to those peculiarly interested in the measure to examine its character, and to communicate their opinions upon the sub- ject. If that time were afforded, he was assured that numerous petitions against this Bill would be presented to the House from various parts of Ireland, and from a class of persons whose respectability entitled them to the utmost attention. That such petitions had not been already presented—that no public complaint had been made against this extraordinary measure, was easily accounted for. The Bill passed through the other House sub silentio, either through some omission, or misunderstanding of its character, or rather, perhaps, because those Irish members who were most diligent in their attention, and active in their exertion to protect the interest of their country upon such subjects, had returned to Ireland before this Bill was brought forward. But from the peculiar hurry with which this Bill was pressed through the other House, one could not feel so much surprise that it had happened to escape any observation—for the fact was, that only six days elapsed from its original introduction to its final adoption by that House. Thus, those who were interested in Ireland were not allowed sufficient time to communicate with their representatives upon the subject; and this, the noble lord observed, was a notable way of legislating for Ireland; first, to postpone the introduction of a measure materially affecting the interest of that country, until a late period of the session, when the most effective of the Irish representatives had returned to their country; and next, so to precipitate the progress of the measure that the Irish public should hardly be aware of its proposition until informed of its enactment. Such a course might serve to obviate parliamentary opposition, but he could not think that it would ever tend to conciliate public opinion. The measure under consideration would, he was persuaded, create a great deal of dissatisfaction in Ireland, for it proceeded to an extent of taxation never before contemplated. It proposed, not only to subject all spirits distilled after the passing of the Act to a duty of 6d. per gallon, but to impose that addition upon the stock on hand. Nay, it went further, for it would impose an additional duty of three-half-pence per gallon on the stock in hand of spirits, in consequence of the additional duty upon malt. But thus to subject the stock on hand of any article to an additional duty in consequence of a tax upon one of the ingredients of which it was composed, he had no hesitation in pronouncing extremely unjust. Such a proposition was not warranted by any precedent in Great Britain or Ireland. It would, indeed, serve to carry the system of taxing stock on hand much farther than had ever yet been heard of, under any rationally regulated government. Yet, by this extraordinary measure, a very considerable sum would be at once taken out of the pockets of those who had spirits on hand in Ireland. But what aggravated the grievance, was the application of a system to Ireland which was totally inconsistent with the English principle of taxation. For in this country no additional duty had ever been extended to the stock in hand of spirits. Why this distinction between the two countries? And how happened it that ever since the Union hardly a session passed over without some change in the law with respect to the Irish distillery, accompanied, too, in every instance except one, with an increase of duty, while the regulations with respect to the distillery of England were left undisturbed? Surely, then, the Irish concerned in this important branch of trade had reason to complain of such a system. But he hoped that when the expected consolidation of the two Treasuries should take place, the English principle of taxation would be extended to Ireland, at least upon this subject, and that the Irish would be more equitably" dealt with than they had generally been heretofore.

The Earl of Liverpool

expressed his entire concurrence with the noble earl, as to the respectability of the persons alluded to, and as to their title to the attention of that House, if they could make out a case against the Bill under consideration; but he could not agree with the noble earl as to the ground of his objections to this measure. The noble earl's main objection was, it appeared, to the proposed extension of the additional duty to the stock-in-hand spirits. But the extension of a new duty upon any article to the stock in hand, was a principle uniformly recognised in taxation, not only in Great Britain but in Ireland. There were, indeed, four precedents of the stock-in-hand spirits being taxed in Ireland, as appeared from the Acts of the 44th, 46th, 48th, and 52nd of the King, some of which Acts passed while the noble earl himself was at the head of the Revenue department in Ireland. Then the adoption of this principle could not be deemed any innovation with respect to the Irish distillery; and it was generally acted upon in this country: for instance, when any augmentation of the tax upon wine took place, such augmentation was extended to the stock on hand. It was, no doubt, true, that this principle was not acted upon with respect to spirits in England, for this plain reason, that here the tax was not imposed upon the spirits, but upon the wash. But the general principle itself rested upon grounds of obvious equity—for when the duty upon an article was advanced, the holder of any stock of that article had the power (which he generally exercised) of charging that advance to the consumer. Hence, upon any advance of duty, that duty was extended to the stock on hand, because it was the policy and the duty of the Legislature to provide, that what the consumer paid in consequence of the increased tax, should come into the pocket of the public. If, however, it should turn out, in the case before the House, that the Irish distiller or spirit-holder should be unable to obtain the advanced duty upon his stock in hand, from the consumer, it would, no doubt, become the duty of the Legislature to take that into consideration and to afford due redress. But it would be utterly inconsistent with the policy and practice of Parliament, to accede to the exemption required by the noble lord, at the moment when the tax was about to be imposed. With respect to the noble earl's concluding observation, he (lord L.) trusted that when the two Treasuries of Great Britain and Ireland should be consolidated, such a measure, arranged with due caution, would be found exceedingly advantageous to all parties; and that the Irish public would be peculiarly benefited by its operation. Care would, no doubt, be taken in regulating the taxation, to pay due regard to local circumstances, and that the principle of the measure in contemplation should be equally fair towards Great Britain and Ireland.—That both countries should be under the direction of the same board, was obviously the best mode of securing to each the administration of the same principles.

The Earl of Donoughmore

said, that as to his connexion with the Excise in Ireland, when some of the Acts were passed to which the noble Secretary referred, he bad only to observe, that the Commissioners of Revenue were not consulted by Government upon the imposition of duties, those Commissioners being only the executive authority, to have the collection of such duties duly enforced. It had been always his opinion, that a much more extensive share of power and of responsibility ought to have been left in the hands of the Irish Boards of Revenue than they had been suffered to possess for the few last years. He reminded the noble earl, that it was from a difference of opinion between him (lord D.), as the then head of both the Boards of Revenue in Ireland, and a right hon. gentleman who was the last Irish Secretary of the Treasury there, as to their respective rights and departments, that an end was put to that situation, which was from thenceforward merged in the situation of First Lord of the English Treasury. But were he consulted upon the establishment of those precedents, they should certainly have met his decided disapprobation; for he never should have agreed to extend a duty upon spirits to the stock in hand. Such a proposition was, indeed, never made previous to the Union. As to the reason assigned by the noble Secretary for not subjecting the stock on hand of English spirits to any additional duty, applied to the English distillery, that reason appeared to him (lord D.) to have no force whatever. For the proportion of wash necessary to make a certain quantity of spirits being duly ascertained, he could see no ground for the distinction maintained by the noble Secretary, or why, because the tax was laid upon wash in this country, the stock on hand of spirits should be untouched, especially according to the noble Secretary's argument in support of what he alleged to be an ununiformly-recognized principle of taxation. But still less could he admit the justice of the noble Secretary's distinction, when he recollected that in the measure under consideration it was proposed to subject the stock-in-hand spirits to an additional duty, in consequence of a tax upon malt, the addition upon the former being calculated according to the proportion of the latter, necessary in the production of a certain quantity of spirits. With this view of the subject, he was quite astonished at the nature of the noble Secretary's observation, or how he could deem it fair to apply a principle of taxation to Ireland, so different from that which prevailed in this country. When, however, the great measure of consolidating the two Treasuries should take place, he trusted that this unjust distinction would be done away, and that the present would be the last deviation from the English principle of taxation which Ireland would be condemned to experience. The noble lord concluded with staling, that he would not divide the committee upon this subject, but he hoped that his suggestions would be duly considered.

The Bill went through the Committee.