Lords Sitting of 20 April 1815

GENOA—NAPLES—SAXONY.
Earl Greyrose and observed, that it was the practice of Parliament, during the pendency of all foreign negociations, to leave their management, and direction in the hands of the Executive Government, subject of course to that responsibility on the part of the ministers of the Crown which belonged to the exercise of all discretionary power. But that prudent reserve on the part of Parliament was, he said, to be regulated by circumstances; and when cases of great importance occurred, in which the justice, the good faith, and the honour of the country were involved, it then became the duty of Parliament to interfere. Such, he suspected, the case of Genoa would prove, respecting which a noble friend of his, whom he did not then see in his place, had given notice of a motion; such also the transactions relating to
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Saxony appeared to be, concerning which another noble friend had declared his intention of submitting a motion, though he had not fixed the day; in both those cases he believed that all the admitted principles of policy, all the principles of justice, all the maxims of right upon which the security of nations rested, had been more grossly violated than in any transactions of modern times. There was a third case likewise, in which it appeared that the national character and the national interests had been no better asserted by those in whose hands the government was now placed. What he alluded to was our relations with the present Sovereign of Naples. When he acceded to the general confederacy during the last campaign, the Treaty which he concluded with the Emperor of Austria, the Emperor of Russia, and the King of Prussia, was sanctioned by our minister abroad, and to the fulfilment of the provisions of that Treaty the national faith and honour were distinctly pledged. Since that period, however, documents had appeared in the public papers which had not been dented, and which, if true, exceeded every thing of treachery and fraud which he had yet witnessed in that new diplomatic school of which the noble Secretary of State might be considered as the founder. Whether it was owing to those causes he knew not; but it was generally believed that hostilities had commenced in Italy, more serious in their extent, and more dangerous in their probable consequences, than seemed to be generally apprehended. The question was of the utmost importance, whether considered in reference to a state of war or a state of peace; if of war, so material a diversion must operate very prejudicially against the general power and efficiency of that confederacy, in whose united exertions the best hopes of this country and of Europe would rest; if of peace (which to the last moment he should cherish the hope of preserving), how much must our reliance upon its continuance be strengthened by maintaining relations of amity with the King of Naples? He did not think it was saying too much (if such a war really existed), to affirm that it was extremely doubtful whether France or England, whatever might be their disposition for peace, could remain neutral in such a contest. He asked their lordships then, whether they would desist any longer from demanding further information? He had not interfered with

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the proceedings of Congress, while they were in progress; but he was not sure whether, in so abstaining, he had not neglected his duty. The time he thought was now come when ministers ought to inform that House what was the slate of our foreign relations with the kingdom of Naples. For that purpose he had risen and he should sit down in the anxious hope, that the noble lord would remove those fears which he (earl Grey) felt at this new state of affairs; or if he could not do that, at least that he would be able to remove all imputations from the national faith.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that the present moment was not the fit occasion for entering into a discussion of the questions touched upon by the noble lord. One of those questions—that which related to Genoa—would soon be brought before their lordships; the other (Saxony) would also be submitted to their notice at an early period; and on both these occasions he should be prepared to explain distinctly what the principles were upon which this Government had acted, and those which had been professed by the other Powers at Congress, when their lordships would be enabled to determine on which side the charge of a new system of policy could be fairly fixed. With regard to Naples, it was true, as had been stated by the noble lord, that a treaty had been concluded between Austria and the Sovereign de facto of that kingdom, during the last campaign; and in consequence of which the commander in chief of our forces in Italy entered into a convention of armistice with that power. No fact, however, had been stated of any violation of that convention so entered into; and as to what might have been the particular circumstances which influenced the subsequent conduct of this Government towards Naples, it was not now the time for entering into them; but whenever the period arrived, he should be prepared to communicate the fullest information, and trusted he should be able to satisfy the House, whatever opinion they might entertain of the conduct of Government upon other grounds, that there did not exist the slightest imputation upon the good faith of the country.
Earl Greysaid, that as it appeared to be uncertain when that day of promised explanation would arrive, and as the case was one so pressing and important, he felt that it would be a dereliction of his
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duty if he did not bring it before their lordships as early as possible. The noble lord had alluded to the engagements between this country and Naples, as if they consisted merely in a convention for the suspension of hostilities, and which convention had not been violated; but he (earl Grey) would undertake to show that the negociations were not to be looked at merely in that point of view, but that the treaty to which the noble secretary acceded, though not as a subscribing party, was one to which the good faith and honour of this country were as much pledged for its execution, as if he had actually been a subscribing party. The treaty in fact was modified and altered at his suggestion. The whole case was of so flagrant and base a nature, that no explanations of the documents which had been published could do away the impression they had excited in his mind. He should therefore bring the matter under there lordships notice on Monday se'nnight, when he would move that an Address be presented to the Prince Regent, praying for further information, &c.
Their lordships were ordered to be summoned for that day.
Marquis Wellesley fixed to-morrow se'nnight for his motion relative to Saxony.

COURTS MARTIAL ON COLONEL QUENTIN AND OTHERS.
The Earl of Egremontrose, pursuant to a notice which he had given, to move for the production of the minutes of the Courts Martial held upon capt. Philip Browne, of the Hermes Mr. Lazarus Roberts, of the Hamadryad and colonel Quentin, of the 10th Hussars. He began by lamenting that the subject had not fallen into abler hands, and disclaiming all personal motives, his only object being to rescue a brave and meritorious class of individuals from a situation in which they ought not to be placed He then alluded to the case of captain Browne, who was tried in April 1814, upon seven charges totally separate and distinct from each other. One of these charges was for drawing bills upon the commissioners of the navy under fictitious names, another for offering to fight the captain of a merchantman on the quarter deck of his own (captain Browne's) ship, and another for tyranny and oppression. These were the principal charges, the remaining four being of minor important and it was impossible, the noble lord contended, for the mind of man to suggest

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seven charges more distinct and separate; yet the sentence of the court was, that having maturely and deliberately considered the whole of the evidence, they Were of opinion the charges were partly proved, and did therefore adjudge the prisoner to be dismissed from his Majesty's service. It appeared, however, from the minutes of the court-martial, that the charge respecting the fraudulent bills upon the commissioners of the navy was decided by the judge advocate general to be inadequate supported, as the forged documents were not produced in court; besides which it was urged that the practice complained of was not unusual in the naval service, and was by no means employed by captain Browne with any fraudulent intent. The evidence upon the charge accusing him of offering to fight the captain of the merchant vessel, proved that he received the grossest and most outrageous insults from that individual, and that his consequent conduct, however reprehensible it might be, was the result of passion excited by that conduct: while upon the other charge of tyranny and oppression, no evidence at all was offered in support of it. Under these circumstances it was surely a great injury inflicted upon captain Browne by the sort of sentence which the court passed, by stating that the charges were in part proved, without specifying how much of them, or of what charges. The opinion of the law officers was afterwards taken upon that sentence, and we understood his lordship to say that they had pronounced it to be unjust, illegal, and informal. The noble lord then adverted to the court-martial upon Mr. Lazarus Roberts, a midshipman of the Hamadryad, who was in like manner tried upon several distinct and separate charges, and had a Similar sentence pronounced by the court, viz. that they were of opinion the charges were in part proved, and adjudged him to be dismissed the service and imprisoned. He did not mean to cast the slightest imputation upon the members composing either of those courts, or to insinuate that they acted from any partial motives or undue influence; it was to the defective principles of the military law to which he rather wished to draw their lordships attention; and it was with a view to the removal of these defects that he intended his present motion as a preliminary measure. The noble lord next adverted to the court-martial on colonel Quentin, dis
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cussing minutely all the details of the evidence, and animadverting upon the sentence, as removing the punishment from the guilty, and throwing it upon those who had received the highest praise from the Duke of Wellington and their superior officers. His ulterior object he stated to be to introduce improvement and reform into the legislative part of the military service, by providing a measure which should define accurately the nature of charges, which should fix the highest degree of punishment to each crime, determine the form of words to be employed in the sentence, and establish some mode of reference from courts of inquiry to other tribunals. With a view to lay the grounds for such ulterior object, he should now move, "That an humble Address be presented to the Prince Regent, praying that he would be graciously pleased to order that copies of the several courts-martial above mentioned, together with the opinions of the law officers upon the two first, the orders issued by the Board of Admiralty, &c."
The Duke of Yorkrose, and made several observations in consequence of what had fallen from the noble earl, on the case of colonel Quentin, and the consequent decision thereon. His royal highness vindicated the proceedings that had taken place on the occasion. He described the important duties of the judge advocate upon the occasion, and highly panegyrized the professional merits of that deserving officer. The advice which he himself gave to the illustrious personage representing his Majesty respecting the subsequent decision, was, he could assure the House, dictated by his views of the real honour and advantage of his Majesty's service. Referring to the proceedings on the court-martial, on which he differed in opinion from his noble friend, he described the different lines of proceeding that might be adopted, and added, that the greatest caution was used in the selection of the officers who composed the court, lest any suspicion of bias might obtain; and adverted to certain parts of the conduct of the officers which might in their tendency be highly injurious to the discipline of the army.
Lord Combermeretook the opportunity to say a few words. He animadverted on the letter which had been sent round by the officers of the 10th hussars, which he characterized as a 'round robin.' He bore the highest testimony to the con-

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duct of those officers, while on service, though he could not support their subsequent conduct. If commanding officers were not supported against such combinations, he conceived there would be an end of discipline.
Viscount Melvillefollowed, and in the course of some detailed observations, argued that the noble earl had by no means laid a sufficient ground for the motion he had called upon the House to adopt.
The Earl of Caernarvonsaid, that there certainly did exist a necessity for re-considering the laws by which courts-martial were regulated; and in particular he wished the House to consider the state of the army with respect to duelling. By the laws of war the practice was condemned; and yet the case to which his noble relative had alluded (ensign Cowell, of the guards) exhibited the strange contradiction of a punishment inflicted for not fighting a duel. Without entering into ail the particulars of that case, he was anxious to state that ensign Cowell was a young officer of rising hopes, and of most distinguished though short service; and he had been broken by the sentence of a court-martial, for not having fought a duel upon a most trifling and paltry occasion. In that court-martial not one of the rules of evidence was adhered to. One fact which ensign Cowell wished to prove, to do away the imputation of having acted from motives of cowardice, was the following:—In an action which took place in the South of France, not above a fortnight before the foolish affair at the theatre of Bordeaux occurred, which occasioned his being tried, ensign Cowell had gallantly led on his men to the charge, being the only officer to command them at that moment. The affair lasted nearly three hours, during which he animated the soldiers by his heroic example. Seven men fell by his side, and not less than nineteen were wounded around him. Yet he was not permitted to establish that fact so honourable to him, because non-commissioned officers and privates, according to the regulation of courts-martial, could not be called as evidence to character. But in that case there was no officer present who could be called, and by rejecting the next best evidence, and, indeed, the only evidence which was attainable, that youthful and inexperienced, but gallant officer, was at once deprived of all chance of justice before his judges, and
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of mercy from his sovereign. He certainly could not help considering the sentence, under such circumstances, as peculiarly hard.
Earl Greysaid, he was happy to find that all the disgraceful charges with respect to captain Browne had been explained away. He was not personally known to that officer; but when he was at the head of naval affairs he had promoted him, from the strong recommendation which he received of his merits. With respect, to the conduct of courts-martial, there recently appeared to have been a good deal of irregularity, which might render it, in some points of view, proper to revise them; and with respect to the case of colonel Quentin, he doubled he legality of his holding the command of a native regiment, he not being a natural-born subject of this country.
The Earl of Rosslynwas of opinion, that the courts in question in some points of view required revision, though he doubted the practicability of a law to regulate positively what should or should not be evidence.
Earl Stanhopethought that the courts in question required revision, and that decisions should be rendered more consonant to the principles of justice. He thought the noble earl had acted meritoriously in bringing the subject forward.
The question was then put, and the motion was negatived without a division.