§ Earl Stanhopeobserved, that the two Bills which their lordships had read a first time, on his motion, on a former evening, were since printed, and the copies were then upon the table. They were both proper Bills to be read a second time. Of one of these he intended to move the second reading on Thursday; but the other, which contained enactments for the better protection of poor and other debtors, he should move the second reading of to-morrow.
The Earl of Liverpoolreminded the noble lord that a very important question stood for discussion on that day.
§ Earl Stanhopesaid, he knew that perfectly well. He had informed the noble earl who was to bring on the discussion of his intention, and he had made no objection as to the proceeding. They perfectly understood each other upon the occasion.
The Lord Chancellorobserved, whatever the understandings of the noble lords might be, if it were thought the noble earl's motion would create but a short discussion, they were very much mistaken indeed.
§ Earl Stanhopesaid, if the debate on his proposition were found likely to run to an inconvenient length, the debate on it might be adjourned to some given day. But he had much pleasure in saying, that persons on both sides of the House were favourable to his measure, and which he thought to their credit. He thought it abominable, that in cases of a debt for a few shillings, individuals, where the expences ran up to many pounds, should be put in prison on that account. He then repeated his notice for the second reading of the Bill to-morrow.
§ Lord Ellenboroughsaid, it ought not to go forth, that a measure proceeding upon 740 such mistaken grounds, and inconsistent with reason or practicability, was likely to meet with such support. What would be the effect of it? To prevent the recovery of sums in the way of costs or damages; and, in many cases, where the greatest properties may be affected. Where the amount of such sums were infinitely greater than in the original cause of action; in actions, too, where what was called nominal damages were given; controverting a principle in which the greatest judges were agreed. The instance of the farthing duty of the city of London, in which the costs amounted to several thousand pounds, was then alluded to by the noble and learned lord. What, in such cases, would be the situation of the parties, were the justice of the law so withheld from them? He wished not to speak disrespectfully of the noble lord for his coming forward; but it most be plain to all, that in cases of vexatious actions, and proceedings of a similar nature, where the costs may amount to thousands of pounds, no remedy would remain to the parties, if this most extraordinary Bill were to pass into a law! After a few farther remarks from the noble and learned lord, and a word interchanged across the table,
§ Earl Stanhopeobserved, the object of the Bill was not to prevent the recovery of costs; but to prevent men from being imprisoned for such costs as were contemplated in the Bill.
§ Lord Ellenboroughsaid, that with respect to the proposed measure, the noble earl had not only mistaken, but falsified the law. The practice of arrests in such actions, was long sanctioned by the law of England. So early as the statute of Henry 3, and ultimately by the statute of Henry 7, so long had the practice of arrests and holding to bail in all actions of the kind been provided for, and sanctioned by the law of England.
§ Earl Stanhopeobserved, he knew such was the law; as his presenting a Bill to alter it in those respects was a proof. But he knew that the law had suffered some alteration in these respects, as in a recent statute of his present Majesty; and the principle he conceived to be the same in both cases.
§ Lord Ellenboroughexplained, that the practice of arrest in mesne process was clearly and indisputably sanctioned by the ancient and established law of England; and he deprecated the ill effects which might arise from such things being 741 taken up on mistaken grounds, or from confident or unqualified assertions.
§ After a short further conversation between their lordships, the noble earl agreed to wave his intended motion for the second reading of the Bill in question to-morrow evening.