Lords Sitting of 5 May 1814

CORN LAWS.
Earl Greypresented a petition from the tradesmen, manufactures, and others, of the town of Newcastle upon-Tyne, against the measure supposed to be pending in parliament, for an alteration of the Corn Laws. This petition, it

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appeared, was signed by 11,000 respectable tradesmen and others, in the town of Newcastle; and if longer time could have been permitted, it would1 have been signed, he understood, not only by a still greater number of persons in that town, but also by a considerable portion of the inhabitants of the villages and places adjacent. It was not his intention, at this time, to enter into any declaration of his own sentiments upon this important subject, which he should defer to the period when the merits of this question would come under the consideration of the House, and when, probably, his opinion might be at variance with, that of the petitioners. At the same time he felt it his duty to present this petition to their lordships, it was also incumbent upon him to direct their attention to one passage, which he wished the petitioners had not inserted. His lordship here read that part to which he adverted, and which, in substance, stated, that the petitioners beheld with regret "the unhallowed efforts of those who would, in pressing this Bill, deprive the country of the blessings of Divine Providence, by raising the price of corn, and scattering distress and devastation among the manufacturers and mechanics". Of this clause he could not approve, because it appeared defective in due deference and decorum; and if he thought it was meant to convey any imputation upon the motives of those gentlemen of the other House with whom the Bill originated, he should not feel himself justified in presenting it. But conceiving this clause to be the mere result of inadvertency, he hoped the House would allow the petition to lie on the table, which he moved accordingly.—Agreed to.

NORWAY.
Earl Grey, disclaiming the intention to interfere with any pending negotiation, thought it necessary to ask the noble earl at the head of the Treasury, whether a negociation of some sort had not been recently entered into respecting Norway; whether with that view commissioners had not been sent to both Denmark and Norway; and whether thosé commissioners were directed to demand the cession of Norway to Sweden, as a sine qua non, of whether any alternative were offered?
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, he was sure the noble earl must feel that it would not be proper on his part to give a precise answer to the question which he had just
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stated; but he was free to say, that on the part of his Majesty and his allies commissioners had been sent to Denmark and Norway, relative to the cession of the latter to Sweden.
Earl Greycould not feel satisfied by the answer of the noble earl; for it was impossible to collect from it what was the intention with respect to Norway, whether it was intended to allow the Norwegians to preserve that independence for which they were so nobly struggling, against the privations of famine, and the pressure of various misery; or whether their submission to the government of Sweden was to be the sine qua non. He was anxious for information upon this subject, because the course which he should think proper to pursue must be regulated by that information; and he could not consider it as at all inconsistent with the duty of the noble earl to answer his question. If, however, the noble earl should not make the answer required, he (earl G.) should feel it his duty to persevere in the motion of which he had given notice for Tuesday, with respect to the production of certain papers upon this subject.
The Earl of Liverpoolhad no difficulty in stating the existence of the negociation alluded to; but he thought their lordships must feel the danger of any explicit answer to the noble earl's question, as to what might be the sine qua non of that negociation; for by such an answer he wag persuaded that the object of the negociation would rather be impeded than promoted. If was, however, open to the noble earl to pursue such course as his sense of duty suggested.
Lord Hollandobserved, that he never, recollected a minister who did not declare, that any answer to a question of this nature would rather embarrass than promote the object of a pending negociation. But still he must say, that it would not become the ministers or that House to suspend the declaration of a decisive opinion upon this interesting subject, until the poor but brave population of Norway were reduced to submission by force and famine.
Earl Greysaid, that being told, on the one hand, that an explicit answer to his question would impede the object of a pending negociation, while apprised, on the other, that measures of violence and injustice, totally inconsistent with, the honour and character of England, were using to force the submission of a country

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to a foreign state, he felt himself in some difficulty as to what course it might be proper to pursue. He should, however, persevere in his notice for Tuesday, particularly in consequence of some authentic information which had reached him. For he understood from a note of the Swedish minister's, that a special mission had been sent to Denmark and Norway for the purpose of officially declaring, that if the latter should not consent to be annexed to the Swedish crown, England and her allies were ready to support the pretensions of Sweden, with a view to that annexation. This was the sine qua non to which he had alluded; namely, that if Norway should not voluntarily submit to Sweden, arms would be employed to force that submission. If, indeed, in addition to the statements of the noble earl, that the object of the pending negotiation would be impeded by answering the questions he had put, and that therefore that House should suspend the declaration of any opinion until the negociation terminated, it were also communicated, that in the interim the use of force against the Norwegians and the blockade of the ports of Norway should be suspended, he might be reconciled patiently to wait the result. But while measures were pursued, in his opinion, inconsistent with all the principles which this country held sacred, and which must be held sacred among all people who respected the rights of humanity, he could not consent to postpone his motion for Tuesday.

DUKE OF WELLINGTON.
The Earl of Darnleydeclared the satisfaction he felt, when he found that the illustrious commander of our forces on the continent had been raised to a higher title. He wished to enquire of the noble earl over the way, if it were not the intention of his Majesty's government to provide also the means of supporting this high rank, so properly conferred? It had been suggested to him, that it was intended to bestow an additional pension for that purpose, but he felt every objection to the propriety of such a provision; for if, instead of the noble house of Blenheim, and its ample domains, a pecuniary payment had been granted to the duke of Marlborough, by this time the change in the value of money would have rendered the compensation inadequate to the support of the dignity. He trusted ministers would propose this subject for the consideration of parliament. He knew that House was not immediately
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the place for its first consideration; but he was anxious for promoting the best and most suitable provision for this noble individual, with whom he was not more personally connected than having at one period pursued his studies with him in the same school.
The Earl of Liverpoolcould assure the noble earl, that the subject to which he alluded had been under consideration; and most probably to-morrow, or on the first day of attendance afterwards, he should receive his royal highness the Prince Regent's commands to make a communication to their lordships of the measures recommended by his Royal Highness for that purpose.

SLAVE TRADE.
Lord Grenville, anticipating, as be had already said, no opposition from any quarter to the proposition which he was now about to submit to their lordships, he trusted that this persuasion would be accepted as his excuse for omitting to urge to such extent and with such earnestness as should otherwise have done, a point in the success of which he felt so deep an interest. He had on former occasions apologized for the earnestness with which he had pressed the measure of the abolition, when many were adverse to its adoption. Now when parliament and the country were unanimous in its favour, unanimous in the wish that it should be extended to the whole civilised world, he need not state at length the motives and reasons why he was desirous that their lordships should accede to a resolution which had for its object the effectuating of that which they were all so anxious to see accomplished.
When he had originally proposed, the abolition of that stain upon the national character, one great argument against it was this, that other nations, after we had abandoned it, would carry it on to equal or much greater extent; and that we, without gaining any thing for Africa would be the dupes of our own misapplied and impolitic humanity. It had been said, that we ought first to apply to other nations, to secure their concurrence, and then by a simultaneous measure abolish the trade all over the world. They had argued on the other hand, that directly the opposite course was the best for this country to pursue. If application had been made to other powers before, the answer might have been, "if you believe that this traffic is unjust and impolitic, act

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upon your own conviction. If you your-selves are persuaded that its continuation is against the safety of your colonies, try the experiment, and then come and make the proposal for this general and comprehensive scheme of humanity." He did not know how ministers could have said that the legislature thought this traffic contrary to justice, sound policy, and religion, and yet confess that they were afraid to execute their own duty till others executed their's. He was happy that now no such answer could be given. They had now the proud, the consoling reflection, that that had been found most consonant to sound policy which was most consistent with justice and humanity. It had been said, that the existence of some of our colonies would be endangered, and that the negroes there would be in a much worse condition than before. But our colonies were safe; and the agents of those very colonies—he spoke it to their honour,—were now ready to confess, that the condition of the negroes had been much improved by the measure. They had been told, that certain of our commercial cities would be ruined by the abolition; but now the representatives of those very cities, he spoke it to their honour, were the most forward to applaud this great act of justice, and even to state the benefits which they had derived from it. When they now, therefore, applied to foreign nations, they could say, that the interest of this country had not been injured by the abolition. Need he ask, whether our commerce had been annihilated? Whether our prosperity and naval strength had been injured? No. They could now say, that the experiment had been tried, and that the commerce and prosperity of the country existed notwithstanding the abolition. Nay, he was convinced that the country stood in its present proud and happy situation, because it had abolished the Slave Trade. That was his conviction, and God forbid he should be afraid thus publicly to own it. We should then address ourselves to foreign nations, not calling on them to share our dangers, not calling on them to share our dangers, not to take part in our sacrifices; but, by sharing in a great act of justice, share the high advantages that must accrue to all nations from justice, manly, pure, vigorous justice.
If it were asked, what right had we to interfere with the duties of other nations, or enquire into their modes of conducting men own commerce, was not the answer
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plain, that if ever there was a right in one nation to demand from another a deference to its own regulations, here the right was manifest. If a great act of our legislature were justified to ourselves; if we followed up that act in contradiction to our own immediate profit; if interests loftier than human profit were consulted by us, and yet liable to perpetual impediment by the practices of other nations, then we had an undoubted right to require that our objects should be impeded no longer. We had already, however, pledged ourselves to this conduct; we had already called on the Prince Regent to represent our wishes in the expedient quarters, and efforts had actually been made for the purpose. It was most calamitous that those efforts had been hitherto ineffectual. He (lord Grenville) felt the ground he was treading here; he felt the invidiousness of touching on the course which had been pursued abroad; but to deal with the question in generalities was to do it injury. There were some countries in which the Slave Trade had perished from circumstances: here the Slave Trade was practilcally abolished from the nature of the war. But its principal support was in the commerce of Spain and Portugal. In the Spanish dominions, it was carried on chiefly with British capital; in the Portuguese both by British and native. Were Englishmen to be permitted to abuse the laws of their country under friendly flags? and that under the flags of nations with whom England should possess by her services the highest influence? All this had been acknowledged. An article had been even inserted in a treaty with Portugal, by which his royal highness the Prince Regent of that kingdom avowed his full conviction of the injustice and impolicy of the Slave Trade; further assigning the danger of admitting a factitious and alien population into his American dominions. A clause, indeed, had found its way into the heart of the treaty, derogatory, in no slight degree, from the principle stated above; and he must allow he felt much more inclined to rely on the preamble than on any subsequent clause; or perhaps he might more strictly say, he relied on the justice of his Royal Highness. He felt unwilling to speak his full feelings on this subject: he was reluctant to say any thing that might be unbecoming a British member of parliament. But it would be absurd to hesitate in saying, that Portugal owed much to the protection of

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Britain: nay, that, under Heaven, she owed her very existence to the prompt and vigorous services of Britain: and then was it to be still said, that we should not call upon her to second our efforts for the termination of a traffic that was a national crime? Yet Portugal, in spite of all former remonstrances, had not only persisted in sustaining this traffic, but was even at this moment preparing to swell it to an extent unprecedented in the history of this guilty commerce, and altogether shocking to humanity. An edict had been put into his hands, dated Nov. 30, 1813, almost the latest date that had reached this country, containing not only no symptoms of abolition, but of an immense and terrible augmentation of the traffic. The substance of this edict was, that his Royal Highness, taking into consideration the state of population in his South American dominions, and seeing its inadequacy for the necessary improvement of that great territory, not merely for the opening of the country by roads, causeways, and canals, but for the working of the mines, the cultivation of the spices, and other precious productions, and also for the manufactures which might be necessary to the future opulence and comfort of his dominions, did, in consequence of the urgent necessity of the case, allow and permit the further importation of slaves from the coast of Africa. This (said lord Grenville) was an instrument on whose construction there could, fortunately or unfortunately, be no doubt. Here was no idle disguise; it was all plain and palpable; an avowed and undisguised determination to push the traffic of slaves to an extent that might be considered unlimited. It was not to supply the first wants of society; not merely to break open roads and smooth the great internal channels of communication; it was not to supply those labours of which the other population might be incapable; not for the exploration of the mines, but for the most remote wants of society, even for the supply of its manufactures. He would turn to their lordships, and ask them, what limits were here assignable to this guilty trade; to what degree it must be pushed to fill the wants of that country, considering the enormous extent of territory, and the present state of that territory. The principle was here avowed, and our duty was inevitable. If we desired to abolish the Slave Trade, we must meet this measure and this avowal; we must meet it, too, with
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higher and more influential arguments than we had used before. (Hear, hear, from the dukes of Sussex tad Gloucester.) If not, we must abandon all our objects; we must give up, as a dream, the hope we had once felt of seeing, in our life-time, the day on which there should be no sale of slaves throughout the world. He must speak out; Portugal owed not only her temporary protection, but her actual existence, to England; and it was not to be endured, that under the coverture of a flag which owed its security to us, our laws should be violated. If it were his object to work upon the feelings of the House, he would have only to detail the mockery of justice, and of all feeling, contained in the commencement of every paragraph; beginning as they did, with, the most specious and formal provisions of mercy, and regularly terminating in new conditions of slavery. He hoped their lordships would not suffer this opportunity to pass away: but if they wished their opinion to be of any effect; if they wished the language which they were now to hold to their prince, and to Europe, to be followed up by consequences worthy of their feeling and their wisdom; if they wished to be heard by their prince, their address must be distinct and firm, and liable to no ambiguity. If it were not to be so, they most spare him the pain of taking any share in it; or, what was of more importance, they should spare themselves the regret of having feebly done what was worthy of all the vigour of man. Things must be done as they had been already done. Stipulations had been procured, arrangements entered into with great solemnity; all the forms of regulation had been proposed; and yet in the face of all, a system was going to commence to which all that was perpetrated before was feeble. There must be a change in the mode of application to foreign powers. He would offer an address. This was not levelled against any particular court, but referred to the recognition of the principle of abolition by all. All our efforts must be ineffectual while we gave the privilege of carrying on the trade to foreign flags. We had no alternative: if we chose to follow up our own laws, we must resist those practices even at the hazard of hostilities with those flags. The interest of our own colonies was even involved. The trade which, while liable to parliament, might be kept in certain politic limits, teemed with political dangers when it was given over to the

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clandestine industry of foreigners. This was the moment, the most favourable of all moments, for the establishment of this noble measure. The sovereigns of Europe, those who were the arbiters of so large a portion of human happiness, were now collected, animated with a new spirit; and the question which involved this vast portion of the human race, would be thus submitted, not at once, to suspicious, jealous, and contradictory interests, but to one great congress of powers who had exhibited the highest qualities of peace and war.
His lordship concluded by moving the following Address to his royal highness the Prince Regent:
"To His Royal Highness the Prince Regent—The Humble Address of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, in Parliament assembled.
"May it please your Royal Highness;
"Relying with perfect confidence on the solemn assurances received by parliament in 1806 and 1810, that his Majesty's government would employ every proper means to obtain a convention of the powers of Europe, for the immediate and universal Abolition of the African Slave Trade—we most humbly and earnestly represent to your Royal Highness, that the happy and glorious events which promise the general pacification of Christendom, the present union and assembly of its greatest sovereigns, and the great and generous principles which they proclaim as the rule of their conduct, afford a most auspicious opportunity for interposing the good offices of Great Britain to accomplish the above noble purpose, with the weight which belongs to her rank among nations, to the services which she has rendered to European independence, and to the unanimous and zealous concurrence of her parliament and people.
"We feel ourselves authorized by our own abolition of this trade, of the guilty profits of which we enjoyed the largest share, by the fellowship of civilization, of religion, and even of common humanity, to implore the other members of the commonwealth of Europe to signalize the restoration of its order and security, by the prohibition of this detestable, commerce, the common stain of the Christian name; a system of crimes by which the civilized professors of a beneficent religion spread desolation, and perpetual barbarism, among helpless savages, whom they bound by
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the most sacred obligations of duty to protect, to instruct, and to reclaim.
"We humbly represent to your Royal Highness, that the high rank which this kingdom holds among maritime and colonial states, imposes a very serious, duty upon the British government at this important juncture. Unless we interpose with effect to procure a general abolition, the practical result of the restoration of peace will be to revive a traffic which we have prohibited as a crime, to open the sea to swarms of piratical adventurers, who will renew and extend on the shores of Africa the scenes of carnage and rapine in a great measure suspended by maritime hostilities; and the peace of Christendom will kindle a thousand ferocious wars among wretched, tribes ignorant of our quarrels and of our very name.
"The nations who have owed the security of their navigation to our friendship, and whom we have been happy enough to aid in expelling their oppressors, and maintaining their independence, cannot listen without respect to our voice raised in the cause of justice and humanity. Among the great states, till of late our enemies, maritime hostility has in fact abolished the trade for 20 years. No interest is engaged in it; and the legal permission to carry it on would practically be a new establishment of it, after the complete developement of its horrors.
"We humbly trust, that in the moral order by which Divine Providence administers the government of the world, this great act of atonement to Africa may contribute to consolidate the safety, and prolong the tranquillity of Europe; that the nations may be taught a higher respect for justice and humanity by the example of their sovereigns; and that a treaty sanctified by such a disinterested and sacred stipulation may be more profoundly reverenced, and more religiously observed, than even the most equitable compacts for the regulation of power, or the distribution of territory."
The Address was agreed, to, nem. dis. and ordered to be presented by the lords with white staves.