Lords Sitting of 19 April 1814

Preamble
The West India Trade Bill, the West India Shipping Bill, and the Legal Quays' Bill, received the royal assent by commission; the Lord Chancellor, the duke of Montrose, and lord Walsingham sitting as commissioners.

THE LATE NEGOCIATIONS, &C.
The Earl of Liverpoolbegged to call the attention of their lordships to what passed relative to the late negociations previous to the recess. He had then informed the House, that it was the intention of government to lay upon the table certain papers upon this important subject. Events had since occurred, which rendered such a proceeding, at present, at least, unnecessary; as fresh negociations had been commenced, which, it was hoped, would be speedily brought to a favourable termination. In this situation of affairs, his Majesty's ministers conceived, that the production of the documents already referred to could be of no public advantage; and considerable inconveniences might possibly arise from it. This explanation was all he thought it necessary now to give upon the subject.
Earl Greywas glad to understand distinctly from the noble earl, that negociations were now on foot, which were likely to have a result that would promote the

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general happiness and welfare of the country. He wished, however, perfectly to understand, whether the papers relating to the discussions at Chatillon would be produced on some future occasion; or whether ministers considered them, in the new state of affairs, as completely out of view, and consequently that it would not be necessary to lay them before parliament? He hoped to receive a distinct answer upon this point before he addressed the House further.
The Earl of Liverpoolthought that he had already given a sufficient explanation why the documents were not laid upon the table. He did not wish that any thing which fell from him should at all prejudge the question, how far it might or might not be proper to produce them on a future occasion; that must depend upon circumstances. It was not difficult to imagine, that events might take place which would render it improper and unwise, that the papers regarding the negociation at Chatillon should be submitted to the public. At present, however, he did not mean to prejudge the question.
Earl Greyexpressed some surprise at the apparent uncertainty of the noble lord, as to the line of conduct he would pursue with regard to the documents which he had himself proposed to lay before parliament. He felt every disposition to place as much confidence in ministers as the present circumstances of the country might demand; but he could not comprehend upon what principle, or upon what ground, the papers in question were now withheld. The noble earl, before the recess, had stated, that he only waited until the arrival of the official Declaration of the Allied Powers; and that as soon as it arrived ministers would feel it their duty to afford every information in support of the facts stated in the Declaration, to convince the world of what he (earl Grey) trusted there was no doubt the moderation of his Majesty's government, and of the Allies, in the course of the important discussions at Chatillon. That Declaration had now been printed; and it set forth (not perhaps so distinctly and explicitly as could be wished) the grounds upon which the negociations had at length been terminated. The documents that were to have been supplied contained merely the evidence to support and confirm the assertions in that instrument, without affording any thing new that might become the subject of vague discussion. Under these circumstances, his
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lordship could not imagine any reasonable objection that could be urged to the performance of the promise made before the adjournment of the House; since he felt convinced that, on an examination of them, it would turn out that the negociations had been broken off by the ambition of Buonapartè, and the injustice of his demands, and not by any want of moderation on the part of the Allies. He did not wish to go into a debate of this subject at present, and he was willing to give to ministers all the confidence that they had a right to require. He felt the utmost satisfaction in those events which had occurred since the rupture of the negotiations at Chatillon; being convinced that the termination of hostilities in the mode now to be expected was upon the whole the best that could have been attained, for the preservation of the general liberties of mankind, and for the peace, security, and happiness of Great Britain; It was the best, with only one exception; for he could have wished, that what had recently been done in Paris, in the presence of a foreign force, had been accomplished by the uninfluenced exertions of the French people. The result, such as it was, was one from which we might augur the most beneficial consequences. He was extremely anxious, however, that every information should be supplied, that might tend to give effect to the happy state of things now about to be established. The production of these documents would not only have the important consequence of satisfying the people under the dominion of the allied sovereigns (though indeed the subject of some of them would not require it), but of satisfying the natives of France, that all that has been done has been done justly; among whom, his lordship believed, there yet remained many doubts, and some seeds of disunion. The papers would convince the world that the government now established in France was founded on truth, and in justice; and that the attainment of peace in the former instance was obstructed by immeasurable and unprincipled ambition. The advantages resulting from such a disclosure would be manifold; it would inspire almost unbounded confidence in those, whose moderation, not whose exorbitancy, had been the cause of the liberation of Europe from the yoke of tyranny. The noble earl seemed undecided as to the conduct he should pursue; and under these circumstances, earl Grey felt it his duty to put in his claim to call for the

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documents in question at a future day, and to make them the foundation of some parliamentary proceeding.
The Earl of Liverpoolwould only trouble the House with a few words upon what had just fallen from the noble earl. Towards the conclusion, he had spoken of the necessity of disclosing the documents in question, for the sake of convincing the people of France of the unreasonable pretensions of the enemy: his lordship (lord Liverpool) believed that he might venture to assert, that upon this point the mind of the noble earl might be perfectly at ease; since, whatever differences might exist, there was not the slightest doubt as to the real and just causes of the late happy events. The noble earl had not correctly stated what passed on this subject previous to the recess: he (lord Liverpool) had then informed the House that certain papers would be laid upon the table as a foundation for some subsequent parliamentary proceeding, the institution of which the Prince Reagent might recommend. No man could now say that such a proceeding would not be wholly unnecessary; and the general rule, when papers were laid before the House, must be abandoned if they were now produced. His lordship admitted, that this was not the only ground on which the production of documents might be called for; and it would be perfectly competent to the noble earl, on any future day, to move for the papers in question or for any others he might deem necessary in the view he should take of this important question. In the opinion of ministers, however, the reason for submitting these papers to the country was now removed; and certainly at present no benefit could be derived, and some inconvenience might result, from the disclosure.
Earl Greyobserved, that the only ground on which he could accede to the proposition of the noble lord was, the declaration that inconvenience would arise to the public from the exposure. Charged as ministers now were with the conduct of transactions of such unprecedented magnitude, if they chose upon their responsibility to declare that public inconvenience would result from the production of these documents, he (earl Grey) could do nothing but acquiesce. When, however, the possibility of that inconvenience should no longer exist, he might perhaps move for the production of papers.
The Earl of Carlisle, though he allowed
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himself to be comparatively ignorant upon questions of this nature, yet could easily foresee that many disadvantages might be the consequence of producing these documents. It ought not to be forgotten, that England was only one out of five great parties at present engaged; and the unnecessary publication of these papers might create distrust, and even differences, at a time when events had occurred, which even the other day could scarcely have been hoped. A short time since, when thanks (in which he so heartily concurred) were voted to lord Wellington, he did expect to have heard from the opposition side of the House some acknowledgement at least, that in the share they had borne in recent events, his Majesty's ministers had deserved well of their country. That opportunity not having been taken, his lordship felt it incumbent upon him (and the more so, because for so many years he had felt it necessary to vote in resistance of the measures of government) to give them that applause which they had so well merited, in securing the peace, liberty, and welfare not only of this country, but of all Europe. This tribute of admiration might have been given by an individual who might be able to speak better, but who could not feel more, than his lordship. Independently of the great talents they had displayed, their judgment and policy well called for the admiration of the House. The moderation they had shewn was only second to that of the great man the emperor of Russia; his dominions had been ravaged, his subjects ruined, and his ancient capital destroyed; yet, when his victorious arms had carried him to Paris, when his standard floated upon the walls, what was the revenge he had taken? it was indeed a glorious revenge, that might wall excite the envy of mankind—it was the revenge of returning good for evil. He had not even entered as a conqueror; he had dictated no terms; but had allowed the people of France freely to judge for themselves, to form the basis of a constitution, which, if the superstructure corresponded with the foundation was likely to become one of the fairest fabrics that the world could boast. This constitution would not only promote the happiness of France but of all the contiguous countries. The emperor Alexander seemed to have outstripped record, in moderation, clemency and generosity.
Earl Greytrusted, that the House would allow him to make a few remarks upon

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what had just fallen from his noble friend. In the first place, he had urged that no advantage could be obtained, and he had imagined a possible risk in the production of these documents. Although he (lord Grey) was not disposed now to discuss the question, he might state generally, that in a free government publicity was always beneficial; and whenever a question arose, in which the moderation, the justice, or the honour of the administration was concerned, an exposure of the motives on which certain consequences had been attained, must always be of advantage, not only to the particular country but to the world at large. As to the possible risk that might be incurred, he would not indulge in conjectures; for when ministers, on their own responsibility, chose to declare that inconvenience would be the result, he was willing to take it on trust for the present, until circumstances should enable him, by the disclosure of the papers, to ascertain the truth of the assertion. With regard to the peculiar danger referred to by his noble friend, occasioned by our intimate connection and concert with other governments, he most be aware that the risk was not greater now than at the period when the noble earl promised the production of the documents, previous to the adjournment of the House. All that was required was, that they should now be laid on the table; at least those that were in conformity with the Declaration of the Allies, in which all the powers concurred. If there were any private communications, minutes of secret interviews, or conversations, it was in the discretion of the noble lord opposite to withhold them.
"With regard to the remainder of my noble friend's speech," (said earl Grey), "I know not exactly whether it was meant to cast an imputation upon those who usually occupy this side of the House. It seemed to imply an unwillingness on our part—an unwillingness on the part of me and my friends, to give his Majesty's ministers a just tribute of approbation, and he instanced the recent case of the vote of thanks to lord Wellington; on which occasion he complains that no expression of admiration was employed. I believe that I was the only individual on these benches who said any thing upon the subject; and if I was not as forward and zealous as the noble earl (Liverpool) himself in applauding the achievements and expressing our gratitude for the services
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of lord Wellington, I can only say that I failed most lamentably, in the language I selected, to give utterance to the sincere and ardent feelings of my heart. Further than this I think the occasion did not require. I cannot help thinking, that there is something a little extraordinary, if not inconsistent, in the statement of my noble friend, who is unwilling that the documents should be produced, on which only we can found an opinion; and yet he calls upon us to follow his example in pronouncing a eulogium upon the general conduct of the servants of the crown. I am inclined to believe, as firmly as he does, that the measures of government, in recent transactions, have been most meritorious: that is my belief; but how can I express it as a decided opinion, or rather as the conviction of my mind, till I have before me the proofs by which my opinion is to be formed, and my conviction to be ratified? I might, perhaps, say that I even believe that their conduct had been most admirable, in a point where it seemed probable that it would be most erroneous; I mean, the moderation of their demands. Ministers have exhibited a moderation, meritorious because it offered peace on the banks of the Rhine; meritorious because again, even as late as the 18th March, it made another liberal, sincere, and candid proposal to that unfortunate and deluded man, for the restoration of tranquillity. I rejoice more than all, because it is my belief that the same moderation has been a material ingredient and accessory in producing the very state of affairs that in now the subject, not merely of my applause, but of universal exultation. Had it not been for this moderation, we should not now have to rejoice in the dethronement of Buonaparte, in the destruction of his power, and in the restoration of the legitimate family of France. Had ministers been so ill advised, as to listen to the intemperate councils that would have had the cause of the Bourbons proclaimed in the commencement, I am convinced that we should not now have witnessed the conclusion of the horrors and calamities of war."
His lordship proceeded to notice the adoption by ministers of the very terms he had formerly used regarding peace; and further to vindicate himself from the charge of backwardness in applause, which was only restrained by a deficiency of information. He concurred in all the praise

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that had been lavished upon the emperor Alexander, for the noble and glorious revenge he had taken upon the French capital. Amid the shouts of victory, he had listened to the cries of humanity; and though his own country had severely bled by the infliction of invaders, when his turn had arrived for retaliating upon his enemies, instead of dying his sword in the blood of his foes, he had stretched out his protecting arm to shield the unfortunate victims of hostilities. Such conduct had raised the emperor of Russia to a height of glory which none had hitherto attained. Even at the head of a conquering army, he had exerted no influence over the popular opinion; he had acknowledged that principle for which his lordship had contended at the commencement of the French Revolution, viz. the indefeasible and indisputable right of the people to regulate their own concerns, to choose their own governments, and the immorality and injustice of suffering that right to be interfered with by foreign powers. He could not, however, help wishing that the late events had occurred without the suspicion that attached to the interposition of a foreign force. No man could feel more strongly than himself, how much was due to the emperor Alexander; and he could not help indulging a wish and a hope that he would transplant some scion of the tree of liberty he had raised in France, into his own dominions; particularly among the suffering inhabitants of Poland. Such a hope would appear, indeed, chimerical and romantic, had it not been encouraged by the promise which his recent conduct had warranted. Then would Alexander leave the name of Washington only second on the short but glorious acts of those real heroes, who, superior to all personal interests, or what are falsely deemed so, had devoted themselves to the general liberty and independence of their country, and by that example had best served the cause of peace and freedom throughout the world. His lordship concluded by expressing his sincere belief that ministers deserved all the applause they had received, but requiring the necessary evidence to prove that it was merited.
The Earl of Carlisledenied that he intended to throw any imputation upon his noble friends: he only meant to express astonishment that he had not been anticipated. With regard to the rupture of the negociations, he was sure he did but express
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the general sentiment, when he stated his sincere joy at the rupture of the negociations at Chatillon. He was still of opinion, that the papers in question ought not to be produced; and was happy to find the noble lord near him, (Grey) coinciding with him in the sentiments which he had feebly expressed on the admirable conduct of the emperor Alexander.