Lords Sitting of 1 May 1812

CAPTAIN HENRY'S SECRET MISSION TO THE UNITED STATES.
Lord Hollandadverted to the notice he had given for the production of the Correspondence relative to the Mission of captain Henry, and observed, that be had conceived that ministers, if they were not themselves solicitous to lay the correspondence upon the table, would at least not oppose a motion for the production of it. Since he came into the House, however, he had heard with considerable surprise that it was their intention to oppose the motion; he was the more surprised at this, it being a subject in which the public look a deep interest, and respecting which it appeared essential to ministers themselves to produce the correspondence. His motion would be for copies of the correspondence between sir James Craig and the Secretary of State, relative to the mission of captain Henry, the correspondence with sir George Prevost relative to the same subject, and the letters from the Secretary of State to sir George Prevost, relative to the compensation claimed by captain Henry. As this motion was, he now understood, to be opposed, he should not bring it forward to night, other business standing for discussion, but should fix it for Tuesday. On the latter day, a motion of a noble friend of his also stood for a committee of the whole House, to enquire respecting the distresses of the manufacturers, in consequence of the operation of the Orders in Council; but as the committee had been granted in another place, he could not conceive that it would be opposed here, in which case his noble friend's motion would not be debated, and his own would stand.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that whenever the noble baron should bring forward
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his motion, he should be perfectly ready to state the grounds on which he deemed it his duty to oppose the production of the documents, and to state such circumstances of the transaction as had induced him to form such a conclusion. He was ready to meet the noble baron on the subject on any day; to that specified he had no objection, as there was no intention of opposing the intended motion of referring the Petitions against the Orders in Council to a committee of the whole House.
The Earl of Lauderdaleobserved, that as it was intended to grant the committee, there ought to be some understanding as to what time it was likely to occupy the House; or whether they were to sit de die in diem, or in what other way.
The Earl of Liverpoolassented to the propriety of having some understanding as to the days, or hours in each day, that should be allotted to the enquiry. He had no objection to go into the committee on Tuesday, but as that might not be convenient he would mention Thursday.

BANK OF IRELAND.
Lord Hollandrose to ask, whether it was the intention of the noble lord at the head of the Board of Trade, to lay any papers upon the table respecting the issue of notes by the bank of Ireland, those relative to the bank of England being already before the House, and the Gold Coin Bill which stood for a committee this night being now extended to Ireland?
Earl Bathurstsaid, he had no intention to lay any papers of that description upon the table, but noble lords on the other side might have moved for them two months ago, and he should not have objected to their production.
Lord Kingobserved upon the necessity of having information on the subject before they came to the discussion, which was now for the first time extended to Ireland, where the sale of guineas, and the discount of Bank-notes, had been legalized.
The Earl of Liverpoolhad no objection to the production of information respecting the bank of Ireland, but could not consent to delay the Bill for the purpose of waiting for the information. The only reason for not extending the Bill to Ireland last session, was the absence "of the Irish members.
The Earl off Lauderdalecontended on the contrary, that the difference in the si-

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tuition of Ireland compared with this country had been distinctly stated, as the reason for not extending the Bill to that part of the United Kingdom.
Lord Hollandconcluded the conversation, by making a motion, for an account of notes issued by the bank of Ireland, which was agreed to.

BANK OF ENGLAND.—CURRENCY OF THE COUNTRY.
The Earl of Lauderdalerose to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice, relative to the state of the Currency of the Country, &c; observing, that however important were the subjects of the Orders in Council and the East India Trade, yet in his mind they sunk to almost nothing in comparison with the consideration of the currency of the country, and the power given to the bank of England. It had heretofore been the prerogative of the crown to regulate the currency of the country, but now that prerogative was delegated to twenty-Four merchants, the directors of a banking company, who had the power of increasing or diminishing it at their pleasure a power, too, which was vested in men representing the body of proprietors of the bank of England, whose interests were at direct variance with those of the public. It was the interest of the Bank proprietors that the issue of Bank notes should be increased, because thereby their profits were increased, whilst it was the directly contrary interest of the public, that there should not be an excessive issue of Bank notes. It was true, that there appeared a trifling decrease of the amount of Bank notes, but if the amount of Silver Tokens issued by the Bank were taken into the account, it would appear that there was no decrease. It was not merely, however, the increase of bank of England notes that they had to consider, but the immense increase of notes throughout the country. The number of issuers of notes had, since 1797, been increased from 1250 to 1800, and the inconvenience resulting there from, was great beyond what their lordships bad probably any idea of. Many of these country banks were situated in obscure villages, their notes being only payable there. When the notes of one of these banks invaded the circulating district of another bank, and were taken there, they were sent back in amount, and a draft on London given for the differences. This was the regular course; but the fact was, that many banking houses in the country
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were obliged to employ agents at the post-towns, to obtain payment of the notes of other banks which they had taken, and those agents were sometimes three weeks before they could obtain payment. Even this, however, was not the extent of the evil—paper tokens were issued in the country for small sums, so low as half a crown. The noble earl produced two of these half crown tokens, issued at Worcester—one of yellow paper, and the other red; and another issued at Fakenham, in Norfolk. Such a debased circulation as this had, he contended, never been witnessed in any country, without being the forerunner of some great change or revolution. With respect to the notes of the bank of England, they had formerly been issued, either to purchase bullion for discount, or to accommodate government. It would not now be-contended that any were issued to purchase bullion. Let it then be considered what an enormous profit the Bank were making by the issue of their notes. Formerly they would not discount for any country bank who issued notes, but now every country banker, through his agent in town, might discount at the Bank, and thus be enabled to issue his own notes through the means of the discount obtained at the bank of England. Putting the case also of their discounting 1,000 l. for a merchant, to enable him to pay duties at the customs, the notes passed into the hands of the receiver general of the customs, by whom they were deposited at the Bank; and thus the Bank had a profit of five per cent. on the money whilst deposited. It was, therefore, of essential importance that they should have information as to the slate of the deposit accounts at the Bank. The noble earl, after recapitulating the evils which arose from the system of paper currency, concluded by moving for a Committee of the whole House, to enquire into the state of the metallic and paper currency throughout the country, the transactions of the bank of England since 1797, and other matters connected with the subject.
Earl Bathurstthought that all the requisite information upon this subject had already been laid before the House, and that it could be of no use to go into the enquiry proposed by the noble earl. As to the objection that the interest of the Bank proprietors and that of the public were at variance, he contended, that however it might be for the interest of the Bank proprietors for a short time to exceed the

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usual issue of Bank notes, yet that the evil of that excess would recoil upon them-selves, and that their well-understood interest in limiting the issue of Bank notes, was, in fact, the same as that of the public. As to the tokens issued by the Bank, he contended, that they could not be at all classed with Bank notes, they being merely issued for the purpose of small change.
The Marquis of Lansdowneexpressed his concurrence in the propriety of the proposed enquiry. He supported the argument of his noble friend, that the Bank proprietors had an interest distinct from that of the public; and argued, that, by the proposed Bill, the prerogative of the crown, to stamp the currency of the realm, and limit or extend its quantity, was placed in the hands of the Bank directors. When be saw a body of twenty-four men invested with such authority; when he fell that they must be divided between their duty to the public and to the individuals whom they represented, he thought the motion ought to be agreed to. He was not one of those who thought that the former sound system of cash circulation could be suddenly reverted to without risking a dangerous convulsion; but he did think that every means ought to be adopted that they might gradually return to that sound and healthful system, and in this view he supported the motion of his noble friend, in order that they might have before them the requisite information to guide their conduct, particularly under the new relations between government and the Bank, by which the latter had the power of regulating the circulation at their pleasure—the controul of government being necessarily weakened by the large unfunded debt which they were only enabled to keep outstanding by the aid of the Bank circulation.
Viscount Sidmouthsaid, that whatever relation subsisted between the bank of England and the government at present, had existed since the year 1797; it was, therefore, rather singular, to introduce it now as a matter of novelty. The immense profits made by the proprietors of Bank stock had been frequently descanted upon. But on a fair examination of facts, it would be found, that, in 1799, they shared 7 per cent. interest and 10 per cent. bonus; but that, when the renewal of their charter took place in 1800, they commuted the bonus for a rise of 3 per cent interest, snaking in the whole 10 per cent which they still retained, being 7 per cent. less
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than the year preceding the renewal of their charter. He thought it unnecessary to go into an enquiry. It had been stated to their lordships, that Bank notes were intended to be made a legal tender; he denied that such a proposition was intended; it only went to give security against arrest, but did not apply to executions. If it was a measure to operate on any foreign warfare, he might, even in that instance, be of opinion that the Bill should be carried through the House, and that the country required it; for the least opposition to the measure might cause what their lordships, perhaps, might ever after regret.
The Earl of Rosslynwas at a loss to know what there was in the charter of the bank of England to prevent them from paying their lawful debts. He agreed that the proposed Bill did not go the length of making Bank notes a legal tender; but it had this effect—when a creditor sued a, debtor, he might make his tender in Bank notes, which would be allowed by the court, and the creditor would be liable to the cost" of court. It ought to have been shewn by the noble lords, that the interest of the Bank and that of the public was the same; instead of which, they had proved them to be diametrically opposite. He would agree, that the Bank had a right to discount Exchequer bills; but the question was, whether the Bank had a right to go to such an extent as to cause a depreciation of bullion by issuing notes to their own advantage, without any new pledge to the public? They had been told of the watch government had over it: but instead of a guard, he would only call it a connivance, to answer their own purpose. Looking to Ireland, he thought it was in great danger, for the Bill would do away with all agreements which were made before this measure was contemplated. The noble lord on the woolsack was not ignorant, that, in Cumberland, the rent was paid in tithes, and wheat was, at this time, ten times the price it had been when the leases were granted. In Ireland, the landlord agreed for gold, and had a right to have his contract fulfilled; and were they to be frustrated by the Bank being subservient to the administration? It had been stated by the noble viscount, that in the year 1799, the Bank was richer than at any other period, on account of the proprietors having received a greater bonus. But he would ask his Majesty's ministers whether they would be willing to take the income

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tax of the Bank on the return they made that year? He was confident they would not; for the noble lord on the woolsack, instead of accepting of it for the minors to whom he was guardian, as lord chancellor, vested in the 3 per cents. Under every circumstance, he would give his decided vote for going into the enquiry.
The question was then put and negatived.