Lords Sitting of 24 March 1812

BANK OF ENGLAND NOTES.
Earl Greysaid, that a measure was then in progress through the other House of Parliament, which embraced a subject of the utmost importance to the country. From all that he had heard on the subject, he could view the measure in no other light than as a Bill for making Bank-notes a le-

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gal tender. In his opinion, therefore, prior to any discussion on the Bill, some information should be laid before the House, to shew how far, in the event of the measure having the effect he stated, the public could receive it, without some sufficient security being given—to point out how far the country could rely on that which was proposed to be introduced as a valid security. He should, therefore, feel it his duty to move for an account of the number of notes which had been presented at the Bank, for payment, within a specific time, and refused, on the ground of their being forgeries. If no objection were made to the production of this paper, he would move for it tomorrow. If, however, any opposition were likely to be manifested, he would postpone it till after the holidays.
The Earl of Liverpoolobserved, that he would, at present, say nothing more about the Bill to which the noble earl had adverted, than that he was entirely mistaken as to its principle. When the measure was regularly before them, he should be ready to state his opinion fully. With respect to the account for which the noble earl expressed his intention of moving, he was desirous, before such a motion was submitted to the House, to know, whether any objection against producing it, existed in the quarter from whence it must be derived; and, it any, what the nature of that objection was. That he might procure satisfaction on those points, he wished a short delay to take place. Probably, he should have an opportunity tomorrow, of acquiring that information; and, if so, he would communicate the result to the noble earl.

TOLERATION ACT.
Lord Hollandsaid, that during the last session of parliament a Bill had been submitted to their lordships by a noble viscount (Sidmouth) whom he did not then see in his place, relative to the Dissenters, which, however, the House had not thought proper to adopt. Without meaning to state his own feelings and opinions, as they respected that Bill, their lordships must be aware that it had created a great sensation throughout the country, and that, in consequence, a new construction had been put on certain parts of the Toleration Act, different from any that had before prevailed. On that construction he would say nothing. It certainly would be indecorous for him or any other member of parliament, to animadvert on it, as having the sanction of judicial au-
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thority. He had heard some time since, that it was the intention of government to afford relief to those persons who were exposed, by this new construction, to severe disappointment, by introducing a Bill into parliament for that purpose. He always thought, that any act of grace came best from the executive government; and, while there was any expectation that they would propose some measure of relief, he had waited, with great anxiety, to give any humble assistance which lay in his power, towards its completion. But, as they were now approaching the recess, and a considerable pan of the session had elapsed, he wished to be informed whether it was in the contemplation of the noble lords opposite, to submit any measure to parliament, of the nature to which he had adverted. Because, if no such intention existed, it would be a matter of serious consideration, whether a proposition should not be made by some noble lord not connected with the government.
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid, that the question of construction had not yet been done with in the courts of law, for he understood that it was intended to have the decision of the court of King's-bench reviewed by appeal, or in some other way. When the question was completely settled in the courts below, then would be the time to bring before parliament whatever might be proper on the subject.
Lord Hollandsaid, that the matter had been decided by the court of King's-bench; and what he wanted to know was, whether there was any intention on the part of government to bring in such a Bill as that which he had mentioned in the course of the present session?
The Earl of Liverpoolagain asserted, that the question had not been altogether disposed of in the courts below. Some applications had been made to government for a Bill of this kind, but he thought it quite time enough to answer such questions as these, when the matter should be decided in the courts of law.
Earl Greysaid, he understood the noble lord's opinion to be, that it was most expedient to let the business lie over until the disputed point was decided. It was a matter of great interest to a very large body of persons, and, therefore, it was highly important that they should be apprised of the decision as soon as possible. He should be glad to know, supposing the recent construction of the act was upheld, whether, in that case, government con-

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templated any measure of relief for those who would be affected by it?

OFFICES IN REVERSION BILL.
The order of the day for the second reading of this Bill being read,
Earl Grosvenorobserved, that he had a strong aversion to these temporary measures on so important a subject. He should not oppose the second reading of the Bill, in the hopes (hat their lordships would agree to an extension of its principle, and continue the prohibition of granting offices in reversion for 20 years. He was thoroughly convinced that these grants ought to be completely abolished. It was, in his opinion a measure of the greatest consequence, though he knew that it had been described by some as one of very trifling importance, and by persons, too, who might have had the best reason to be satisfied of its great importance. It was sufficient, however, for his argument, that the public thought it a measure of the last importance; and, in his opinion, unless these grants were abolished, the constitution itself would be endangered. He had, on a former occasion, brought this question before their lordships, and he was not yet discouraged. On whatever side of the House he might find himself, he should still persevere till the object was accomplished. He was satisfied, that unless the practice of granting offices in this way was abolished, the people would feel a perpetual distrust of the executive government. There was hardly any individual, he should suppose, but wished the abolition of the practice, except such as expected to profit by its continuance. Their lordships had before recognized the principle of the measure of abolition. But it had been argued, that no material saving was to be expected from the adoption of the measure. It had not been advocated merely on the ground of the immediate saving it would produce; but supposing it had, he contended, that the argument was far from being unfounded he was convinced that the measure was highly important, even with a view to immediate economy. If the abolition of the practice had taken place at the beginning of the present reign, several places which now existed would have been altogether abolished, and there would have been a saving to the state of many millions. A strong objection to these reversions also was, the clandestine manner in which they were given. The appointment of
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Mr. Buller to be Clerk to the Privy Council had lately been noticed in another place; and the statement in reply was, that this place had been long ago given to Mr. Buller in reversion, even while he was an infant. This was what hardly any body had been aware of, and was a proof of the secret way in which these transactions were carried on. Mr. Buller might be a proper person for the office: he knew nothing about that, either one way or the other; but if he was, the public was so far fortunate, and more fortunate than it deserved to be, since it had permitted this practice to continue so long. He maintained that its abolition would be most important, as recognizing the principle of economy, besides the actual saving which it would produce. The noble earl then adverted to the reason assigned in the preamble for passing this temporary measure, which Was, that something connected with the subject was under consideration by a committee of the other House. The reason was an absurd one, as far as it could be exected to operate with their lordships. They could not regularly take notice of what was under consideration in the other House; but they all knew, that the subject referred to was that of sinecure offices. And the truth really was, that these, though distinct from reversions in one sense, were nearly connected with them in another. They were inseparably linked together. They were the vultures that preyed on the vitals of the country, and as they had lived so they ought to die together. He hoped he should not be told by the noble and learned lord on the woolsack, as an excuse for himself, that many distinguished chancellors had granted offices in reversion. It did not follow, therefore, that they approved of the practice, or that the noble and learned lord himself approved of it. That most excellent man and distinguished judge, sir Matthew Hale, had decried the practice; lord Coke had also decried it; and was it to be doubted but lord Hardwicke and other eminent chancellors disapproved of it, and would have said so if the occasion had arisen? If this practice were abolished, that would indeed be a day of jubilee—of real jubilee for the people: but without this, all would be discontent and disappointment. The Prince Regent would have to regret the pernicious advice which had led him to treat with indifference, not to say with contempt and scorn, propositions of such

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importance as this. The noble earl concluded by declaring, that when the Bill came to be committed, he would move to extend the period of prohibition to twenty years.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed the first Thursday after the recess.

IRISH DISTILLERIES—SCARCITY OF PROVISIONS.
The Earl of Darnleyrose to call their lordships' serious attention to the present situation of the labouring poor of Ireland. In the first place he was anxious, as far as possible, to obviate any objections which might be made against the general principle of the motion which he should submit to their lordships. He thought, from the present situation of Ireland, he was justified in calling the attention of parliament towards it: but he must at the same time observe, that if he believed any real scarcity of provisions existed in that country at the present moment, he would repress his feelings, and not bring the subject before the House; because he knew, in such a case, that the interference of their lordships could not effect any great alleviation of the evil. Believing, however, as he did, from the best information, that no real scarcity, no great deficiency in the necessaries of life, had actually taken place in that quarter of the empire—believing that no immediate danger was to be apprehended—he felt it a duty incumbent on him to state that which he knew to be a fact, namely, that certain districts were suffering all the miseries and evils attendant on a dearth of provisions, though no general scarcity existed. Many noble lords, from their residence in Ireland, might probably be enabled to give more circumstantial information on the subject than he could, whose knowledge was necessarily derived from others. But he was convinced of the accuracy of the statements which he held in his hand, which were written by persons on the spot, and from them it would appear, that the high price of provisions and the difficulty of procuring subsistence in particular districts, had been attended with very bad consequences.—The noble earl here read extracts from two letters, describing the distress which existed in the districts where they were written, but the names of which he did not state.—The facts narrated in these letters were undoubted, and a considerable alarm had been excited through different parts of the country in
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contemplation of a dearth of food. A reverend prelate, whom he did not then see in his place, but whose attention was particularly called to that part of Ireland where the dread of scarcity was most prevalent, must be aware, that, in his diocese, the poor were suffering great distress from want of provisions. Now, in his view of the subject, the legislature, by putting a stop to the distillation from corn in Ireland, would produce very beneficial effects. The encouragement of distillation in Ireland, he considered a strange and singular kind of policy. Among all the evils which that country suffered—among all the causes which were said to produce that want of industry, that spirit of insubordination to the laws, which had been so much complained of—nothing operated more powerfully than the facility with which the Irish peasantry were enabled to indulge in the use of spirituous liquors. At a former period, when the distillery was stopped, he had occasion to go to Ireland, and he noticed, in the lower orders, a very manifest and praiseworthy alteration. Instead of the frequent instances of intoxication, which he had formerly witnessed, be saw very few indeed during his residence in Ireland at that time. He, therefore, thought, that, when the prohibition was followed by such excellent consequences, the government had not consulted the advantage of the country, in the way all governments should do, by again permitting distillation to an unlimited extent to take place. He might be told, that the proposition he was about to make came too late, for the distiller had already purchased his annual stock of grain, and had even commenced his preparatory process. To a certain extent this might be the fact. But the answer was, why did not government look into the matter sooner? When they saw the rising price of grain, why did they not interfere? They had a rising market before them; and one of the consequences of their not having interposed was, that oats had now arrived at 30 s. per barrel. He should be sorry to propose any thing which could interfere with the agricultural interests of Ireland; but the present was an extreme case, and deserved immediate attention. In consequence of the alarm which had been excited in particular parts of Ireland, the price of provisions had been enhanced far beyond any thing which the circumstances could justify; and, as parliament were competent to entertain any measure

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which might seem calculated to remedy the evil, he thought it was the duty of their lordships, even now, to consider the propriety of temporarily stopping the Corn Distillation. He did not mean to assert, that this was the best measure that could be resorted to—but such it certainly appeared to him; and if the noble lords opposite would satisfy him by shewing that they had done, or were doing, all that the necessity of the case required; or if, in opposition to what he had advanced, they would prove that no scarcity whatever existed in Ireland, he would very cheerfully withdraw his motion. His lordship concluded by reading the three Resolutions which he intended to propose for the adoption of the House, namely, 1st. That the present high price of provisions in Ireland has produced great distress to the labouring poor in that country, 2dly. That it is the duty of the House to take into consideration the best means of removing the evil. 3dly. That it is expedient, for that purpose, to suspend the distillation from grain, while such high price continues."
The Earl of Clancartysaid, he was fully inclined to give the noble earl every degree of credit on the score of purity of intention, in coming forward on the present occasion; but it was with much regret he felt obliged to oppose the adoption of the noble earl's propositions. Their lordships were not now to be reminded of the great, the extreme delicacy with which the agitation of all questions connected with the subsistence of the population was attended. They must feel the great importance of having it alleged in so grave a place, that the executive government had neglected its duty on an occasion of such vital importance. But without the existence of any actual scarcity, as the noble earl had avowed his belief of, and without which he must contend that any measure would be injurious, he thought it much to be lamented, that the subject was thus brought forward. His information, which he had from the best sources, from almost daily conversing with persons just arrived, or from letters almost daily received from Ireland, led him to draw very different conclusions from those adopted by the noble earl. There was no danger to be apprehended, or even the appearance of any degree of scarcity taking place, at least during the present year in that country; that an universal rise in the prices of grain had taken place in Ireland,
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was a proposition which he must deny. He had recently perused a written statement of the prices, in the principal markets, particularly in the articles of the first necessity, of oats, wheat, and potatoes. In some places, oats were at 13 s. 6d. the barrel. At Bantry, they were at 14 s. at one time, and afterwards at 12 s. 6d.: on the very same day, they were as high as 25 s. at the great mart of Cork. Potatoes were 3s. 6d. the stone at Cork, a price never known before, while in Dublin they were only 1s. The rise, therefore, was far from being universal, and there existed no apprehension of a scarcity. The proposition of stopping the distilleries would not act as a remedy, particularly now the season was nearly at its close, and the stock in a state, from the processes it had gone through, so as to be unfit for the food of man. The government of Ireland had earlier and better information on the subject than either himself or the noble earl, and it was highly reprehensible if it did not adopt every practicable expedient to avert the dangers contemplated by the noble earl. The principal cause, in his opinion, for a rise in the prices of grain in Ireland, was the great exportations of corn from that country, and particularly to Great Britain. It had been stated, that the proportion of wheat imported here from Ireland was about one-tenth; but of late years, the proportion, in the article of wheat alone, amounted to one third of the whole of the British importation! To this the measure proposed by a right hon. baronet in another House, greatly contributed. He meant not to impugn the measure, it was of advantage not only to Ireland, but to the empire at large [Hear, hear! from the marquis of Lansdown]. As to any serious apprehensions of a scarcity in Ireland, he was far from apprehending any. The noble duke at the head of that government did not sleep upon other occasions, and he was not likely to slumber on this. Judging and feeling as he did of the noble earl's proposition, he should take the liberty to move, "That this House do now adjourn."
The Marquis of Lansdownetook the opportunity to offer a few general remarks on the nature and tendency of the measure adverted to in terms of approbation by the noble earl, which had been proposed by a right hon. friend of his (sir J. Newport) in another place; the effect would be more to qualify and render Ireland a grand granary for supply, and almost an

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inexhaustible source of supply to the empire at large. A system of frequent and reciprocal commercial intercourse between the sister islands, was one, he thought, the most to be wished for, as the system likely to be productive of the greatest reciprocal advantage.
Viscount Mountjoymade a few remarks in support of what had fallen from the earl of Clancarty.
Lord Hollandshortly observed, that from what had transpired of the subject, he felt it rather difficult to understand upon what principle, and, with reference to the degree of scarcity to be apprehended, upon what ground it was deemed advisable to stop the distilleries in England, that would not equally apply to Ireland.
The motion for an adjournment was then carried without a division.