Lords Sitting of 23 March 1812

PROVISION FOR THE PRINCESSES.
The order of the day for taking into consideration the Prince Regents Message on the above subject being read:
The Earl of Liverpoolrose for the purpose of moving an Address to his Royal Highness, on the occasion. He observed, that in a case such as that before their lordships, he felt it would be unnecessary to call their attention but very generally to it. He felt confident it must be the intention of parliament to enable his Royal Highness to make a due and suitable provision for the illustrious personages adverted to in the Message. The more so

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when the present peculiar situation of those illustrious ladies, and their exemplary conduct upon every occasion, were considered by parliament and by the country. Under ail the circumstances of the case, he felt assured there must exist an anxious desire that such a provision should be made for them as was deemed suitable and adequate for the occasion. The Address, which he should move for the concurrence of their lordships, would not go to pledge the House to any specific grant; yet he was aware it might be desirable on this occasion, that he should, for the information of noble lords, state the nature of the grant which it was proposed to bring under the consideration of parliament. Their lordships were aware, from the communication of his Royal Highness, that as the law now stood, the sum of 30,000 l. per annum was appropriated for the purpose in question, but this was not to take place until the demise of his Majesty. From the circumstances of the case, a new arrangement and farther provision became necessary. What it was proposed now to do would take place immediately, and in addition to the sum he had mentioned. According to the pending arrangement, that sum divided between the four Princesses would yield an annuity of between 7 and 8,000 l. to each, and in case of a reduction in the number of those illustrious personages to be provided for, that income would be so divided, that if three remained, each Princess would have 10,000 l a year; and the same sum to each, if reduced to two; but in case only one should remain, then the annuity to such remaining princess would be only 12,000 l. It was now proposed, forthwith, to increase this pending annuity of between seven and 8,000 l. to 9,000 l. a year each, subject still to the advantages of survivorship, by extending it to the sum of 10,000 l. in case of reduction to three or to two; but in case one only should remain, then the annuity not to exceed 12,000 l. The operation of the measure would be to render the pending arrangement immediate, and to increase the respective amounts from between 7 and 8,000 l. per annum to 9,000 l. This was the general outline of what was proposed. And as it was not competent to that House to originate a measure of the kind, the Address he should move would be of a general nature, not pledging the House to any specific sum. The noble Secretary concluded by moving an Address to that effect, and assuring his Royal
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Highness of the cheerful concurrence of their lordships in measures to enable him to make the desired provision.
Earl Grosvenorcertainly did not mean to oppose the grant. He only wished to know out of what fund it was to be paid.
The Earl of Liverpoolanswered, that it was to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund.
The Earl of Essexexpressed his wish to be informed, whether in the Bill which it was intended to introduce on the occasion, it was proposed to make any arrangement with respect to the provision of her royal highness the Princess of Wales?
The Earl of Liverpoolobserved, that he had received no commands from his Royal Highness on the occasion, and that the Message before their lordships had merely reference to the establishment of their royal highnesses the Princesses.
The question was then put, and the Address agreed to nem. dis.

MR. CHINNERYS DEFALCATION.
Earl Grosvenorrose to request, that the noble Secretary would give the House some information relative to the failure of the First Clerk of the Treasury: and it would depend upon the answer he should receive, whether he should, at some other time, make a motion on the subject. The affair was one of the very first importance. The defalcation, at the very lowest statement of it was not less than 70,000 l. He should not, perhaps, have called their lordships attention to the matter in this way, had this been an unique case; but when they saw the same frauds taking place on other occasions, in the Ordnance Department, and elsewhere, it was not a subject to be passed over lightly. These frauds had now extended to the Treasury itself, which ought to be particularly vigilant against all frauds of this kind. Still, however, he might not have thought it necessary to mention the subject in this manner, had it not been that this person had been long living in habits of extravagance, so that people were surprised how a person in his situation should have been able to expend such large sums in buildings, and other projects. This, therefore, was not a common case, in which a default might have taken place without exciting any previous suspicion. Here the suspicions of the Treasury ought to have been roused, and then much of the money might have been saved. The person in question had been a protegé of a right

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hon. gentleman, now Vice-President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Rose) whose eyes, it might be imagined, should have been open to his proceedings.
The Earl of Liverpoolobserved, that their lordships must be sure he could not regularly afford any information on the subject. The transaction referred to was one between the Lords of the Treasury and one of the Clerks of that department; the proceedings were of some notoriety, and by the extent that was issued, a considerable sum had been obtained. It was undoubtedly competent to the noble earl to bring forward a motion on the subject if he thought proper; and it would be for the House to consider how far such motion could be entertained.

ORDERS IN COUNCIL.
Earl Filzwilliamaddressed a few observations to the House with reference to this subject. He said he should have several petitions to present from manufacturers and other commercial persons, complaining of the injurious and destructive consequences resulting to their interests from the Orders in Council: and that, when these petitions should be before the House, he should feel it incumbent on him, to come forward with a motion for the repeal of so injurious a system.

EAST INDIA COMPANYS CHARTER.
Earl Greyobserved, that under the circumstances of the case, he felt that the attention of parliament should be speedily directed to another topic of the highest importance. He meant the affairs of India, and the approaching expiration of the Company's charter. In this view he had to express his surprise, that not a single document had yet been laid on the table by ministers. What he principally rose for was to ask whether they meant to bring on this great and important subject in the remaining part of the present session; and to know their opinion whether, during the remainder of the session, there would be adequate time for the due consideration of so extensive and important a question.
Lord Melvillestated, that it certainly was intended to bring forward the subject adverted to, in the present session of parliament. He had also to state, that a discussion was going on between the Court of Directors and government on the subject; and he had little doubt but soon after the recess it would be produced. With respect to what the noble earl had stated as to the time the remainder of the session
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would afford, it was highly probable that full as much time would be allowed for the discussion as was allowed on the last occasion the subject was under the consideration of parliament. It was at that time the latter end of April when it was brought forward. Their lordships would recollect that a committee of the other House had the subject long under their consideration; and he was confident that noble lords would be amply and satisfactorily informed on the subject.
The Earl of Lauderdaleconcurred in the opinion of his noble friend, that the subject ought to have been brought under the consideration of parliament at an earlier period. The noble viscount said, that as much time as possible would be allowed for the consideration of the subject, but there was not the least resemblance between the case, as it at this time presented itself, and as it then stood. At that lime they were to believe that the East India trade could be only carried on through a very extensive capital, and preferably, by a joint stock company. Now it was carried on by a company who avowedly had no capital at all. He was afraid there was no resemblance between the cases. A negociation, it was said, was carrying on between government and the company, but he would ask, were the government and the company the only parties? Were not the distressed manufacturing and commercial interests of the country to be consulted and attended to?
Lord Melvillesaid, he should not be provoked by any thing which had fallen from the noble earl to enter into a premature discussion of topics not regularly before the House. When the subject should be before the public and parliament, he would answer, and he trusted successfully, the arguments of the noble earl.