Lords Sitting of 18 March 1812

MUTINY BILL.
The order of the day being read, for the House to go into a Committee on the above Bill,
Earl Grosvenorrose and said, it would depend very much on the answers he should receive from the noble Secretary of State for the War Department, whether he would assent to the Bill then going into the committee, or move that the order should now be discharged, that it might be renewable for a future day. There were some very important points, connected with the military exertions of the country, on which he wished to receive information; and he would slate to the House what he had himself heard, and which, if true, was highly deserving of their lordships' most serious consideration. He had learned that the practice had lately obtained footing in the army, of transferring large bodies of persons, sentenced to imprisonment on board the hulks, to be attached to regular regiments. To the proceeding which had heretofore prevailed, he meant not to object. No good reason could be assigned against the introduction of a few persons into the army, who felt sincere contrition for their improper conduct. To prevent them would be an offence against humanity, for it was only giving to those, whose errors were venial, and who saw them in their true light, an opportunity to retrieve their character, and to improve themselves in society, if the were recommended as worthy of that favour; and, without such a recommendation, no secondary consideration should induce government to commute their punishment for service in the army. But, had they been always thus introduced in small bodies, that dissatisfaction which was felt in particular regiments, which beheld them entering the service, as it were, in armies, would never have existed,
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and he would not have had to complain of so mischievous a system—The next point on which he would touch, though not immediately coming under the cognizance of the noble Secretary opposite, was certainly connected with the situation of the illustrious Commander in Chief. He alluded to a report which had been spread, that orders had been issued to the recruiting Serjeants of certain regiments not to enlist Irishmen, while foreigners were admitted without scruple. Why this exclusion should prevail, he knew not. It had been said, indeed, that the Irish were addicted to desertion. He gave no credit to this calumny; for he knew there were no braver, more generous, or more faithful soldiers than those of Ireland. They received any kindness done to them with gratitude; they repaid it with unvarying affection; and if they ever did desert, it arose from severity of treatment. He expected an answer from the noble Secretary, whether such orders had ever been in existence, and, if they had, whether they were now annulled?—He next came to the establishment of schools for the education of the military, a measure, which reflected infinite honour on the illustrious individual at the head of the army, as shewing an earnest desire to call the attention of the soldiery to their best interests. With respect to the system which had been adopted, he wished to make one or two remarks. In the first place, he understood that those military schools were founded on the principles of the established religion of the country. To that there certainly could be no objection. He had also been informed, that the mode of instruction introduced in those schools, was the same as that made use of at Madras. Neither, he thought, could any fault be found with that proceeding. But a very strange feeling appeared to have gone abroad on this subject. Many persons imagined, from a paragraph in the Address of the Society who espoused the Madras method of education, that those schools were not only to be founded on the principles of the established religion, but that Dr. Bell's system, as at present developed, should alone be permitted, and that no alteration whatever should be allowed. If any improvement, however excellent, were proposed by Mr. Lancaster, or by any other individual, it was to be rejected; although tending to forward the great plan of national education. That such an opinion prevailed, absurd as it was, he felt perfectly convinced; and he

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stated it only for this reason, that the principle which many persons considered those schools as established on, and which feeling was calculated to do much mischief, might be officially disproved.—The noble earl next adverted to the compulsion which had been used to force the attendance of the soldiery at those schools. Undoubtedly, by the law, they might be compelled, by their commanding officers, to attend to their military duties; but that law, in his opinion, could scarcely be considered more powerful in compelling them to attend school, than it would be to force them to learn to dance, or to become masters of any other acquirement, not necessarily connected with their regular duties. But as the education which the soldier was likely to receive, must be extremely useful to him in every situation of life, he thought all disgust at attending military schools would gradually subside, and, therefore, no enactment appeared to him necessary on the subject.—His lordship then called the attention of the House to a subject which, at the present moment, was extremely important—he meant the mode of recruiting for the army. He lamented, most deeply, that the system which had been formed, in 1806, by a great statesman, the late Mr. Windham, was not pursued. If the House looked to the enlistment in the year he had mentioned, and compared it with the returns in the present, the falling off in the latter, if they took away from the account the numbers who had been drafted from the militia, would be found lamentable indeed; and the more so, as, by the volunteering system, the militia, the constitutional force of the country, was likely to be ruined. He would ask the noble Secretary, what course he intended to pursue? Whether he intended totally to discountenance that system, which his predecessor in office (lord Castlereagh) declared he would not discourage, but which, in reality, he had discouraged? After the short trial that system had had, which led to very great advantages, that noble lord professed, that he would not do it away altogether; he would not completely discourage it. But it was impossible not to feel, that the strong opinions expressed by that noble lord on the subject, must have had a powerful effect throughout the country; an effect hostile to that system to which he was known not to be friendly. He demanded of the noble Secretary whether he intended to revive the system of 1806,
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or to oppose and discourage it, as had been done?—He would now shortly advert to a subject, which had occasioned very general anxiety, he alluded to the practice of corporal punishment, which, for the last century, had been carried to such an extent in the British service. He confessed, while he was in the command of a militia regiment, such exhibitions were disgusting and shocking to his feelings, and he did all in his power to prevent its frequent occurrence. It was a practice condemned by many most respectable persons who had written on military subjects; and, in the last year, a clause had been introduced in the Mutiny Bill, by which an option was given to courts martial either to inflict corporal punishment, as the term was generally understood, or imprisonment. He knew not how far that well-intended clause had occasioned a relaxation of the more severe punishment. To ascertain that fact, it was in vain to enquire how far it had been acted on in general courts martial. Without the noble Secretary informed the House what effect the clause had on regimental courts martial, they must remain ignorant of the effect occasioned by the clause. This, however, he believed, that situations might exist, where, to take away, entirely, the power of inflicting exemplary punishment, would be attended with very bad consequences. But he supposed that the system would, at length, be so generally scouted by the army, as to render any specific enactment unnecessary.—The noble earl finally called the attention of the House to the excessive enlistment of foreigners in the English army, and the placing of foreign officers in the command of British troops. On this subject, he was sure their lordships felt a considerable degree of constitutional jealousy. In that statement, he was sure, even the noble lord on the woolsack would concur. The act of 1804 allowed 10,000 foreign troops in the country; by that of 1806, the number was increased to 16,000, and, beyond that, none were permitted. Now, he would maintain, that those who had incorporated any of those troops with the native force, or placed foreign officers at the head of British troops, had acted illegally, and were liable to punishment. He would contest that point with any learned lord, even the noble lord on the woolsack. He knew the laws were perplexed, but they ought to be made so plain and clear, that every person could understand them; and,

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therefore, there could be no presumption in his advocating an opinion founded on a particular statute, although contrary to that of the learned lord. His lordship concluded by hoping that the noble Secretary would return satisfactory answers to the inquiries he had made.
The Earl of Liverpooldid not feel it necessary to go at length into the different topics which had been touched upon by the noble earl, several of which were not at all connected with the Bill then before the House. If, for instance, any improper latitude had been taken, either in sending persons to the army, who had been imprisoned on board the hulks, or in enlisting foreigners, they were substantive and distinct questions, which must be argued on their own grounds, and ought not to operate as an interruption to the present Bill. With respect to the transferring of convicts, he would state, that the hulks had, for a considerable time, been placed under the superintending direction of one of the most intelligent magistrates in this country. The system adopted by Mr. Graham, and his exertions, had produced the happiest effects; and, when that magistrate saw that an offender was penitent for his former crimes, he certified the fact, and the reformed prisoner was allowed, in some cases, to enter the army. Without such a recommendation, it was never permitted. The number who were thus brought back to society, might now probably be greater than formerly; but this he attributed to the excellent system at present on board the hulks, which tended to ameliorate the morals of the prisoners. But, taking the number thus incorporated with the army, in the most extended view, it would be found very trifling. Perhaps, indeed, too great a number had been sent to some particular regiments. If such were the case, it was certainly to be lamented, and ought to have been avoided. Sure he was, however, that where crimes were committed through indiscretion, or were occasioned by misfortune, and the perpetrators of them having become penitent, were desirous of retuning to society, it would be most cruel to refuse them an opportunity; and, he would also observe, that many of the persons who were thus sent to the army, from their bodily strength, and their hardihood of constitution, were eminently adapted for a military life. He was surprised to hear the assertion of the noble earl, that orders had been given not
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to enlist Irishmen. Surely he must have known, that the people of that country formed the great strength and stamina of the British army, and to imagine that an-order, such as the noble earl had spoken of, could ever have been issued from head-quarters, was really ridiculous. With respect to those which were termed favourite regiments, every person must know, that their commander could not be prevented from refusing some individuals, and receiving others; and they certainly had a right to look minutely into the characters of those whom they enlisted. As to what the noble earl had said on the subject of education, it appeared to him to apply rather to diocesan than to military schools. But, it was his firm belief, that if any improvement in those schools were suggested, it would be carried into effect. The noble earl had expressed his regret, that the system of a much-lamented friend of his had not been followed up.' He certainly thought with his noble friend (lord Castlereagh,) that that system was most prejudicial to the recruiting service; and, in answer to what the noble earl had asserted, he would observe, that, under the present system, the army was more numerous, and better disciplined, than it ever had been. As to the drafting from the militia, from which the noble earl foretold such evils, he believed, and he was borne out by many experienced officers, that it would have a directly contrary tendency. Although, in the last year, many bloody battles and sieges had taken place, which necessarily induced a great loss of troops, yet, on looking to the returns, the British army would be found stronger now by 10,000 men, than it was at the commencement of the year, notwithstanding all those losses. He, therefore, had a right to infer, that, by adhering to the system which had produced such results, it would answer the most sanguine hopes of the country.—On the subject of corporal punishment he coincided with the noble earl, who seemed to think, that however much it was to be deplored, it could not be done away altogether. In the last session, a new clause had been introduced in the Mutiny Bill, leaving it optional with courts-martial to inflict imprisonment or the usual punishment; but, an adequate provision had not been made to carry that intention into effect, as no authority was given to confine offenders in the county gaols, which rendered it very difficult, in many situations, to exercise that discre-

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tionary power. There was also a defect in the Bill of last session, as no power was given to deduct part of the offender's pay, while suffering imprisonment; without which power, he was convinced, imprisonment would do more harm than good. The Bill on the table, however, had been altered, to meet both those cases. The delinquent was now liable to imprisonment in the county gaol, and only a certain sum was allowed for his subsistence.—Much had been said on the subject of enlisting foreigners. Parliament had decided, that, in the present state of affairs, part of the force of the country should be composed of persons of that description; and, when they contemplated the exertions which had been made by the enemy with the natives of foreign states; when they considered that France could not have done what she had done, without foreigners—the House would not deny, that we also had a right to repel her ambition, by making use of similar assistance. The noble earl, though he made the assertion, had not adduced a single instance of a foreign officer being placed at the head of British troops. At all events, these questions were not at all comprised in the Bill before them, and therefore ought not to prevent the committal of the Bill.
Earl Grosvenorwas sorry that the system of the year 1806, was not only to be discouraged, but, as he gathered from the noble lord, was to be annihilated. The noble lord, in what had dropped from him on the subject, had by no means explained what he had asserted as to foreign troops. He did not conceive himself bound to adduce any instance of foreign officers commanding British troops; but this he would say, that if a single foreigner had been placed in such a situation, those who appointed him had acted illegally.
The Bill then went through a Committee, and was reported without an amendment.