Lords Sitting of 7 February 1812

INSOLVENT DEBTORS.
Lord Redesdale, after presenting two petitions from imprisoned debtors, observed, that notwithstanding parliament had so recently passed an insolvent act, he understood that the prisons were again almost as full as before. With the view, therefore, of obtaining information upon this subject, he moved for Accounts of the number of persons confined for debt on the 1st of May 1811, the day on which the last act took effect: the number discharged under that act, and the number in confinement on the 5th of February 1812.
The Earl of Moiraexpressed his satisfaction that this subject had been again taken up by the noble and learned lord, viewing the motions now made as an anticipation of the noble lord's intention to renew the bill which he brought forward last session. The pledge he had given upon the subject, was a heavy burden upon his shoulders; and he should most sincerely rejoice to see it again taken up by the noble and learned lord, who, from his professional knowledge, was so much better qualified to do it justice. Something he was convinced must be done, and that very speedily, to ameliorate the condition of a numerous class of persons who were daily suffering oppression through the neglect and inattention of the legislature.—
The Accounts were ordered.

ORDERS IN COUNCIL.
The Marquis of Lansdownerose to give notice of his intention, in the course of a short time, to bring forward a motion relative to the Orders in Council. Without entering into any detail, he thought it necessary to state that there were two views in which the subject might be considered. The one was, the effect produced by the Orders in Council upon our negociations with the United States of America: and the other, the effect produced by them upon the commerce and prosperity of the country. Without giving up for himself, or any other noble lord, the right of interfering with respect to our negociations with America, if it should be thought necessary he would merely mention that his motion would be confined to the latter view of the subject, namely, the effect of the Orders in Council upon the commerce, the manufactures, and the resources of the country. He wished to name rather a distant day, and would therefore move that the House be summoned for Monday fortnight.
Earl Bathurstwished to know which of the orders in Council the motion of the noble marquis would refer to?
The Marquis of Lansdownesaid he would state that at a future opportunity; and also apprize the noble earl, if he wished it, of the terms of his motion.
Lord Grenvilleexpressed his concurrence with the sentiments entertained by the noble marquis. As to the very injurious tendency of the measures alluded to, independent of the effect they might have on any pending negociation with the United States, he was decidedly of opinion
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they should be revoked on the ground of internal policy; and in this view, he would ask whether or not petitions had been presented to the Prince Regent praying their revocation? On this subject he thought some particular information should be laid before the House. The people of this country were, in former times, disposed to look to parliament on such occasions; but latterly they were more accustomed to make application to the executive government alone. In the present instance, he would admit they might with less impropriety depart from that principle, because the Prince Regent in council was invested by parliament with the power of revoking them.
The Earl of Liverpoolagreed with the noble baron, that it was certainly true, the subject had the option of petitioning on such an occasion, either the executive or the legislature. It was one, however, on which he did not mean to lay down either course as a general rule; perhaps in the case before them, the petitioners had taken the most correct course. He should entertain a considerable objection to a motion such as the noble baron seemed to have in contemplation; but every information on the subject which he thought could be consistently communicated, he had no objection to afford.
Lord Grenvillesaid, that in consequence of what had fallen from the noble earl, he was not desirous of pressing such a motion; but a great deal upon the subject was already unfortunately known to the public.

FINANCES OF THE COUNTRY.
Lord Grenvilleadverted to the observation he had made on a former evening relative to a statement which had gone forth to the public, of the comparative state of the produce of the consolidated fond in the years ending the 5th of January 1811 and 1812, namely, that the deficiency in the latter year, as compared with the former, amounted to only 2,000,000 l. He had in consequence moved for the accounts which were now on the table, for the purpose of clearly shewing what the actual state of the revenue was, and it was merely to draw the attention of the House to the arithmetical result of these documents, that he now rose. It surely required very little knowledge of the subject not to be aware that it was a most fallacious mode of considering it, or of stating it, to draw a balance from the mere

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consolidated fund account, without reference to the items of which the income was made up, or the manner in which they were applied to defray the charge. The real question as to the comparative deficiency was the amount of taxes applicable to the service of the country; and it would be found upon examining the accounts, that the real deficiency in the amount of taxes applicable to the service of the country in the year ending the 5th of Jan. 1812, compared with the year ending the 5th Jan. 1811, was not 2,000,000 l. but 3,500,000 l.—Such were the diminishing resources of the country to carry on the wild and extravagant projects in which we were embarked. There were, besides, several observations, which arose out of the manner of making up the account of the consolidated fund: 2,752,000 l. for instance, was taken credit for on account of interest for Ireland. Had Ireland been in a situation not only to pay her own expences, but also to leave a surplus of revenue, it might have been fair, as a mere consolidated fund account, to place the item in that way; but when it was known that Ireland had unfortunately been unable to pay her own expences, and that this part of the empire had been called upon to defray a proportion of them, it surely was most erroneous so to place this item, when it ought undoubtedly to have been placed on the contrary side. It was in truth of most essential importance, that the real state of the finances of the country should be taken into most serious consideration. Not only the great increase of our Funded Debt, but still more of the Unfunded Debt, combined with the diminishing resources of the country, formed the strongest grounds for apprehension. If the state of our finances was examined with that attention and consideration which the subject most seriously demanded, he feared it would be found that we were little able even to fulfil those obligations which the true interests of the country imposed, much less to carry on those desperate and extravagant projects in which we were so unhappily embarked.
The Earl of Harrowbycontended that his noble friend had taken an erroneous view of the subject. The produce of the year ending the 5th of January, 1812, was a mere trifle short of that of the year ending the 5th of January, 1810, but because it was not so great as that of the year ending the 5th of January, 1811, the
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produce of which was the most enormous of any year known before, his noble friend had contended that the resources of the country were diminishing, and that there was ground for alarm. He, on the contrary, was decidedly of opinion, not only that here was no ground for alarm, but that the finances of the country were in a flourishing and prosperous state. That the deficiency in the year ending the 5th of January, 1812, as compared with that ending the 5th of January, 1811, amounted to so much, was easily accounted for. In preceding years the interest of the loans had been provided for, by appropriating taxes already in their full collection; but last year new taxes had been imposed to defray the interest of the loan, which could not be brought into a state of full collection by the 5th of January, in the present year, and which would thus account for several hundred thousand pounds of the comparative deficiency. There was, however, no falling off in the revenue, with the exception of the customs, a deficiency in which was of course to be expected; but the increased produce of the taxes on general consumption, proved the general affluence. As to the interest from Ireland, it was taken credit for to meet the charge on the other side. With respect to the debt, he contended that no war could be adduced, in which so little unredeemed debt had been incurred. From 1803 to 1812, the amount of the unredeemed debt incurred did not exceed seventy millions, whilst the sinking fund had increased six millions, being now more than double its amount in 1803. From all these circumstances, be contended not only that there was no ground whatever for alarm, but that the finances of the country were in a prosperous and flourishing state.
The Earl of Lauderdaledenied the inference drawn by the noble earl; and maintained, that if the finances of the country were thoroughly examined, it would be found—he did not mean to say that we should be unable to resist a foreign foe, but—that it would be impracticable to carry on those wild projects in we were engaged. Would the noble earl affirm, that if the Bank were to withdraw 5,000,000 l. from circulation, that we could go on? Would not, in that case, the Exchequer bills fall to 5 or 6 per cent. discount and be returned upon the government, who would thus receive only their own paper in payment of taxes, instead of

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money? As to what had been stated by the noble earl, that only 70 millions of unredeemed debt had been incurred, it would be found, probably, that that was owing to the provident cares of others, in some of the years of the war; and that if the latter years of the war were looked into, the expenditure would not redound much to the credit of the noble lords opposite. He was satisfied that the whole system of the finances of the country must very soon undergo a minute revision, and become the subject of most serious consideration.

KING'S HOUSEHOLD BILL.
The Earl of Liverpoolmoved the order of the day for the third reading of the King's Household Bill, and observed, that he would now take the opportunity of explaining the subject with reference to the three Bills on the table, all forming part of the same arrangement, namely, the King's Household Bill, the Household Officers Bill, and the Regency Expences Bill. His lordship then adverted to what had passed in the last session of parliament when the Regency was under consideration, and observed, that whatever opinions might be entertained of the improbability of the King's recovery, they must nevertheless legislate upon the possibility of his recovering, so as to resume the exercise of the royal authority. His lordship then explained the object of the Bills, to appropriate 100,000 l. for a Household for the King, and to the support of his dignity and personal comfort; together with 60,000 l. the amount of the King's Privy Purse, and 10,000 l. to the Queen, to meet incidental expences, making together 170,000 l. To meet this charge, the Prince of Wales had consented to give up to the civil list from his Exchequer income 50,000 l. and 70,000 l. was proposed to be voted by parliament, making 120,000 l. leaving a deficiency in the civil list, as transferred to the Prince Regent, of 50,000 l. with, however, a considerable difference of expence, as his Majesty's expenditure had of course been considerably increased by the largeness of his family. The noble earl concluded, by expressing his regret that the question respecting the increase of the expenditure of the civil list had not on former occasions been fairly met, instead of resorting to the mode of making good the deficiency out of other funds, convinced as he was, that if the question had been brought forward, it must have been
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evident that the increase of the expenditure was unavoidable, and that it was no more, than must have been felt by every person from his own private expenditure, and could not be avoided.
Lord Grenvilleobserved, that the Bill was such that he could not entirely approve of, although he was perfectly aware of the difficulty attending a task in making a provision for a case so new and distinct from any former situation of things. He agreed with the noble Secretary of State, that it was an essential object for their lordships to have in view, that the arrangement to be formed was not in its nature necessarily permanent, and that as their hopes had been hitherto unhappily disappointed, so their fears might be agreeably undeceived. His first objection to the plan now submitted was, that it was intricate, involved, and obscure, whereas in his opinion, on such an occasion, it ought not merely to be clear and intelligible, but so clear and intelligible, that every man in the kingdom could understand it. He was not prepared to argue the question of the Bill on the principle of the sufficiency or excess of the particular sums appropriated to different purposes. All their lordships undoubtedly felt the necessity of supporting now as well as at any former time, the dignity and state belonging to the exercise of the functions of royalty, and to the person in whatever situation, or labouring under whatever calamity, who continued to wear the crown. They all felt that it was not merely for a-sick person, but a sick king, for whom provision was to be made. He had often lamented that in all the arrangements of the civil list, two objects should have been combined so obviously dissimilar as the provision for the civil government of the country, and the expenditure for the royal household. This was not the proper opportunity for entering into such a consideration, but he did think it, in due time, a subject highly worthy of their lordships attention. An extreme case might, indeed, occur, which would render it expedient to make some alteration with reference to this arrangement, but except in such an extreme case, it was unquestionably the duty of the legislature to respect the contract which bad been entered into between the country and his Majesty, when he was competent to give or to withhold his assent. Upon the subject of the excesses incidental to the civil list,

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the noble lord stated, that when in office, he had conceived it to be the most regular and expedient course to meet these excesses with any available fund in the uncontrouled possession of the crown, rather than to apply for parliamentary aid.
A conversation then took place between lords Grenville and Liverpool as to the legal accountability of the King's Lords Steward and Chamberlain to the Lord Treasurer, after which the Bill was read a third time.