Lords Sitting of 7 December 1812

PRINCE REGENT'S MESSAGE RESPECTING THE MARQUIS OF WELLINGTON.
The order of the day being read, for taking into consideration his Royal High" ness's Message, respecting the marquis of Wellington,
The Earl of Liverpoolsaid:—In rising, my lords, to propose an Address in answer to his Royal Highness's most gracious Message, for the purpose of expressing your lordships' concurrence in forwarding his Royal Highness's intention, I am sure I should be wasting your lordships' time, if I were to say one word in recommendation of such a motion. After the able and eloquent speech of my noble friend (earl Bathurst) on a former evening, in moving the thanks of this House to that gallant and distinguished general, and after the able speeches of other noble lords, and of the noble marquis opposite (Lansdowne), upon the same occasion, it would be impossible, my lords, for me to add one expression which could evince more of my own admiration, or raise a higher opinion of the noble marquis's conduct. At the same time, I will venture to occupy a small portion of your lordships' attention in stating a few circumstances respecting this great general, which I think are entitled to consideration. His Royal Highness has stated, that in wishing to confer upon the noble marquis, by an act of munificence, what will enable him to support his merited dignities, he has taken into consideration the signal services the noble marquis has performed for his country, and these services, so constant and unwearied, cannot be too much valued. For four campaigns, my lords, has the marquis of Wellington devoted the powers of his body and mind, to the conduct of the war in the peninsula. In the course of that period, he has been opposed to the most celebrated and experienced of the French generals, to Soult, to Victor, to Jourdan, to Massena, and to Marmont, and not

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only, my lords, has he been opposed to all these, but he has overcome them. Indeed, when we reflect that the whole of this period has been devoted to the cause of his country, without the exception of a day, when we reflect what privations he must have endured, that no considerations of personal ease could divert him from his object, that no fatigue, that no considerations of private policy could shake him in the discharge of these important public duties, we are led to wonder at that strength both of body and of mind which could support him under all these circumstances, and for so long a period. The marquis of Wellington, my lords, is justly sensible of the high honours which have been conferred upon him, for no greater perhaps ever fell to the lot of any man; eight times he has received the thanks of parliament, and in six out of those eight times he was commander in chief. But in respect to any pecuniary compensation, independent of the reward which on a former occasion was voted by the legislature to lord Wellington, instead of having had, during all these campaigns, any opportunity of increasing his fortune, he has, I believe, on many occasions experienced its diminution. I shall not detain your lordships further, than by proceeding to make that proposition which I am convinced will be unanimous, because it is one in which you are called upon to concur, in justice to lord Wellington, and to yourselves. Because, my lords, in conferring upon lord Wellington a reward for his past and distinguished services, you only do that to which he is entitled as an individual; and when you take care to reward so great and undisputed services in such an individual, you adopt the wisest policy for the preservation and security of your country. I may here add what more properly comes first under consideration in another place, that it is the intention of government to propose a grant of 100,000 l. to be vested in landed property, for the use of the noble marquis and his heirs, and in such manner as will be more particularly described in the act for that purpose.—The noble earl concluded, by moving an humble Address to the Prince Regent, thanking him for his most gracious Message, and assuring him that their lordships will most readily concur in carrying his Royal Highness's intentions into effect.
Lord Hollandhad no disposition to make any observation upon the present
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motion, after the able and just mode in which the marquis of Wellington's distinguished services had been described; in every word of which he most heartily concurred. He had only to remark that the proposition of the noble earl had his entire approbation, and he felt satisfied in hearing the statement and extent of the grant intended, and the manner in which it was meant to be appropriated.
The Address was then agreed to nem. diss.

VICE CHANCELLOR'S BILL.
Lord Hollandwas desirous of submitting to their lordships' attention, a motion for further information respecting the Bill introduced by the noble and learned lord (Redesdale). The noble and learned lord, on a former night, had expressed his intention to oppose every proposition for delay. But he (lord Holland) was no further desirous of delay, than that before the House passed a measure of such importance, they should have every information requisite to form their judgment upon it. He, therefore, intended to move for the Report of the Committee of the House of Commons, appointed to inquire into the causes of delay, in the decision of suits in the Court of Chancery. He was the more desirous of having this information before them, as it would enable the House better to decide upon the propriety of the Bill, and give time for the attendance of several noble lords who, no doubt, would be desirous of delivering their sentiments upon the subject. There were many objections he entertained against this measure, which he would not enter into at present, but which would probably be stated upon the third reading; and he trusted the noble and learned lord would so far accede to a full consideration of his intended measure, as to postpone its final consideration till after the holidays. In the mean time he should make the motion of which he had given notice, and against which, he believed, there could be no objection.
Lord Redesdaledid not rise to oppose the motion of the noble lord, but he could assure the House, that no information could be derived from the Report alluded to, capable of altering their opinions upon the measure which he had the honour to propose. Their lordships would recollect that this subject had been under their consideration for nearly three years; that a committee had been appointed, who were unanimously of opinion that the evil com-

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plained of required immediate remedy; and that the same committee, composed of persons of all others most competent to suggest a remedy, had recommended the measure now proposed. With respect to the motion of the noble lord, it only went to the production of a Report which had little connection with the causes and grounds of the present measure. The Report was made by a committee appointed to enquire into the causes of delay in the proceedings of the Court of Chancery, and chiefly arose, he believed, out of a disposition to ascertain whether the causes in that court had increased. The causes in that court had certainly increased, and, from the increase of causes in all the courts below, the Lord Chancellor was precluded from deriving that assistance from the judges, which was given to my lord Hardwicke and others. But the increase of causes in the Court of Chancery did not apply to the increase of Appeals and Writs of Error in the House of Lords. The arrear of these Appeals and Writs of Error was enormous; it now amounted to more than 270, which would require from 12 to 13 years to decide, according to the mode in which these causes had been hitherto decided, without taking into calculation the accumulating arrear which would take place in the interval. This delay in the decision of Appeals was a growing evil, and one of enormous magnitude and great grievance to the suitor.—The noble and learned lord next proceeded to notice the hardships of many individual cases, where the parties were put to the most serious loss and the greatest inconvenience. In one instance, the rents and profits now depending, in consequence of delay, amounted to 30,000 l. and, in others, his lordship shewed what injurious effects might result from a further delay on the death of the parties. The measure proposed by the present Bill had been discussed in the last session, and neither the noble lord, nor any other peer, had then suggested any alteration in lieu of the present; When the Bill miscarried in the other House, he had promised to bring it forward this session; and, in now proposing it to their lordships' consideration, he had kept his word and discharged his duty. It was intended that a Vice Chancellor should attend to the business of Chancery, while the noble and learned lord on the woolsack sat from ten till three o'clock, for three days in the week, deciding cases now before the House. How-
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ever early this Bill might pass, a considerable part of the session was likely to elapse before it could be carried into effect. He was, therefore, inclined to oppose any measure whatever likely to produce delay, but at the same time he could not object to the motion of the noble lord.
Upon the order of the day being read for going into a committee upon the Bill,
Lord Hollandagain rose, and addressed the House upon the subject of this measure. He was the more induced to state his sentiments, in consequence of what had fallen from the noble and learned lord. The noble and learned lord had intimated his surprize, that no other measure had been proposed by him instead of that recommended in the present Bill. With respect to himself, he did not consider his knowledge equal to the task; and he deemed the argument a little extraordinary which would infer, that because he did not possess that legal knowledge which was most competent to suggest the fittest plan to be adopted, it was to be inferred that he could not consistently state his objections to the one proposed. The noble and learned lord would do him the justice to recollect, that on a former occasion he had not publicly, but privately, communicated to him his objections to the present measure. This was, however, a serious subject, as it affected the state and the law of the country; and although he was afraid he might discover ignorance in his own ideas respecting it, yet, when he saw the noble and learned lord so anxious to push this measure in the absence of those who could have more ably pointed out its impropriety, he felt himself particularly called upon to express his objections to the Bill. With respect to all that had been stated as to the magnitude of the evil complained of, and the immediate necessity for its being remedied, he and the noble and learned lord were perfectly agreed; but he entertained very serious objections against the mode now recommended, not because it would bean unconstitutional measure—no, he had formerly stated that this would be a material alteration in the constitution of this country, and certainly he thought so still—but with all the admiration he ever should cherish for the British constitution, he would be ever ready to acquiesce in any alteration which should be proved to be necessary, and likely to be effectual for the purposes for which it was intended. He begged,

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in speaking upon this subject, to be plainly understood, and that when he mentioned his objections, he meant them not to apply to the noble and learned lord who presided on the woolsack, for whom no one could entertain a higher opinion. With regard to that high office, no one was more anxious that it should be rewarded with a salary commensurate to its importance, and its utility in the constitution. In saying this, nevertheless, he lamented that a part of the income of that office arose from bankruptcies—from the distressed property of the subjects of the country. Not one farthing of this income did he desire to see retrenched; but it would be more satisfactory to the person filling that high office, that this portion of his income should arise to him by a direct grant in another manner. Perhaps if an officer were appointed to administer the bankrupt laws, instead of the lord chancellor, it might relieve that high officer so much as to enable him to dispatch the business of that House and the Court of Chancery. But he felt strong objections to the division of the office of lord high chancellor itself. That office he regarded as one most important in the state, and one most useful to the country. As it was now constituted, it could not be filled by an incompetent person; it must be filled by one deeply imbued with legal knowledge; and he left it for the House to consider how important it must ever be to the state, that such a person should have a seat in the councils of his sovereign, and how useful it must be to the country that the head of the law should be dignified by such a station in the government. He was not speaking these sentiments with consideration to the conduct of the noble and learned lord on the woolsack; but when he looked to future times, he was apprehensive that the consequence of this division of the office would be, that the lord high chancellor would become a mere political character in the state, and that the vice-chancellor would be the real and only legal decider of the law. There might be other means of remedy more effectual, and not likely to be attended with mischiefs greater than those it was intended to cure. He instanced the relief the lord chancellor might experience in altering the administration of the law respecting bankruptcies. The noble and learned lord who spoke last was entitled to much praise for the attention he had paid to the alteration of a part of the law
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similar to that of bankruptcy; and he trusted he would pursue his intention of supplying the remedies which had been so often applied to the shame of the legislature—he meant temporary acts of insolvency. That measure of the noble and learned lord would require the appointment of a distinct court, and he did not perceive why a similar and distinct provision might not be made in the case of bankrupts.
Lord Redesdalehad no desire to have this measure passed through parliament before the holidays; but under the consideration of its necessity, he trusted their lordships would agree to its passing that House, in order that it might go to the Commons as speedily as possible. With respect to the objection mentioned by the noble lord, as to the division of the office of chancellor, it must be recollected, that still the lord high chancellor would be constantly occupied in the decision of most intricate and important points of law before that House. It was impossible, therefore, that the office could be filled by an incompetent person, any more than in its present constitution. The lord chancellor would then equally, as now, be under the observation of the public; and, considering the importance of his legal knowledge in the advice of the crown, it was highly improbable that any minister would venture to appoint any other than a person whose talents and learning fitted him for the situation. The noble lord had suggested the propriety of separating the administration of the bankrupt law from the office of chancellor; but cases of vital consequence to the commerce of the country, more so than all the cases put together in the courts below, came before him for decision; and it would be perhaps dangerous to this department of the law, if the adjudication of these cases were committed to any other jurisdiction.—With regard to the salary of the new judge, there were other sources from whence it might be paid, without burthening the people. It would be considered, that the property of suitors, by various accidents, fell into the hands of Chancery, and had created a fund of considerable magnitude. The amount of this property now vested in the bank of England, exceeded 400,000 l. and it would not require half of that sum to create a permanent salary for the vice-chancellor, and there could be no objection to the application of that fund for the purpose.
The Bill then passed through a Committee, and was ordered to be reported tomorrow.