HL Deb 21 April 1812 vol 22 cc502-6
Earl Grey,

adverting to the numerous Petitions that lay on their lordships' table, against the East India monopoly, wished to know from the noble President of the Board of Controul, when the subject of the renewal of the charter was to be brought forward. The session was far advanced; the measure was one of the greatest importance; and it was necessary that time should be given for that ample deliberation, which the magnitude of the question called for.

The Earl of Buckinghamshire

could not state exactly when the subject would be brought before parliament; but whether it could be brought forward this session or not, their lordships might be assured of this, that full time would be given for the consideration of the question in all its bearings. He had no objection, however, to state, that it was the intention of government that the matter should originate in the other House; but there was no desire, on the part of the Prince Regent's ministers, to precipitate the measure, or prevent its being maturely considered in both Houses.

Earl Grey

had expressed his wish to know when the subject would be brought before their lordships; whether it was probable that it would be submitted to them at a period when there was a fair chance of its being considered and discussed in a manner suited to its importance: but now the noble earl over the way appeared to be uncertain whether it would come before them at all that session; and stated, that, at all events, it was intended that the measure should not originate there. He saw no reason against it; but at any rate it ought to be laid before them at a period when it might receive the fullest deliberation. Could this be expected? Considering the time that a Bill of this nature must take in passing through the other House, it was morally impossible that it should that session come before their lordships at a time when there was usually the fullest attendance. He! hoped their lordships would interfere, and not suffer their dignity and consequence in the state to be thus trifled with.

The Earl of Buckinghamshire

had given no decided opinion that the subject ought not to originate in their lordships' House. He had only stated that under the circumstances, it appeared most advisable to the government that the matter should originate in the other House.

Lord Grenville

declared, that from what he had seen of the conduct of the present ministers, it was his firm belief that they acted upon a fixed intention to annihilate the consequence of that House. (Some cries of No, no.) He repeated that such was his firm belief—a belief founded upon their uniform plan of delaying to bring the most important political measures before their lordships, till it was notoriously impossible to give them their due consideration in that House. The declaration of his noble friend at the head of the East India Department, was in exact conformity to this system. After the public attention had been so long fixed upon this subject, when their table was loaded with Petitions respecting it, his noble friend had declared, that the matter was not to be brought forward here till it had passed the other House. Such a declaration he thought a most extraordinary one; for even if the measure were to originate in the other House, still there were means, before it had gone through all its forms, to bring the subject before their lordships; and this was the plan which those who loved the constitution of their country, and thought their lordships' House an integral part of it, would, in all probability, have followed: but ministers, it appeared, thought that their lordships had only to sit, with their hands folded, till the most important measures were brought before them, at a time when they could not give them due consideration; and then, if some of their lordships solicited farther time, they would be told, that the public interest, and not their opinions, were to be attended to. Was this a way to treat that House? For five years they had been treating on the subject with their parliament in Leadenhall-street; and yet it was not to be brought before their lordships, till it was so late, that they could not conveniently, he might say, could not possibly, give it the consideration which its magnitude required. It was of the utmost importance to the constitution of the country, that their lordships should not suffer their House to be treated with this gross indignity.

The Earl of Liverpool

would never hear the present ministers charged with treating their lordships' House with indignity, without rising to repel the accusation. He maintained that in the conduct of the public business, every attention had been paid to the consequence of that House. What was there in the explanation of his noble friend to call for this accusation? Had not his noble friend declared, that ample time would be given for the consideration of this important subject? And with regard to the particular period at which this business might come before them, he had to observe, that no season was improper for deliberation upon a great public measure. If, indeed, there had been any faulty delay on the part of ministers, under all the circumstances of the case, that might be a ground for a distinct charge against them: but any season of the year was a fit one for the discussion of a great political question. It would be for their lordships to decide, when the question came before them, whether they should proceed upon it or adjourn the discussion to a future period; and it ought to be remembered, that the Company's Charter wanted two years of its expiration. Where was the indignity to their lordships, in saying that it was the intention of ministers that the measure should originate in the other House? That might be purely a matter of convenience; and no indignity was intended to either House of Parliament. It ought to be remembered, also, that when the subject of the Charter, now about to expire, was under consideration, the noble lord who spoke last was in administration; and yet the measure had then originated in the other House, and had come before their lord-ships at a late period of the session. The magnitude of the subject was deeply felt by the Prince Regent's servants; and they had thought it their duty to consider fully the various interests which it involved, before they laid the matter before parliament They had thought it incumbent on them to lay the measure before parliament in as perfect a shape as possible; and it was, and had always been, their intention that parliament should have ample time to give it all the consideration which its importance deserved.

Marquis Wellesley

denied, in the most pointed terms, that there was any intention on the part of ministers, while he was connected with them, to offer any indignity to their lordships' House, or to treat its authority lightly; but at the same time he deeply regretted, that a question of this importance; for it was one of the most important questions, not only with a view to trade; but in a constitutional, military, and political point of view, that ever came under their lordships' review—it involved all that was dearest and most vital to the constitution of this country, to its liberties, and to its government,—it involved the consideration of all they owed to that vast empire which they had so long administered, and which, as he should be able to prove when the matter came regularly under discussion, they had, all things considered, administered so well; he deeply regretted, he repeated, that a question of this vast importance had not, before this late period of the session, been brought regularly under the deliberation of both Houses, in the shape of Resolutions, by which the opinion of parliament might be taken on the prominent features and principles of the system, before the more formal measure was submitted for deliberation. Whether the measure ought to originate in that or the other House,— whether that House had been, at any time, improperly passed by, whether the error was on the one side of the House or the other, was not now the question for their lordships to decide. The real question which at this moment best deserved their attention was, whether they ought not to have an opportunity of deciding upon the prominent principles of the intended India system, as a preliminary to the discussion of the more detailed plan. He was aware, that these observations were irregular; but he would state one principle now. He believed, that the general basis of the present system was the right one; but at the same time, many vital improvements might be erected on that basis, even with a view to give complete effect to the principle: but it was not right in the government to refrain from taking the sense of both Houses as the preliminary step. Such, he was satisfied, would be the opinion of every person who was at all aware of the importance of the subject. He regretted that this course had not been adopted, and heard the declaration of the noble lord at the head of the India department with astonishment. For how could they possibly think of proceeding with a measure of this magnitude with out, in the first instance, applying to parliament for a general concurrence in its prominent-features?