Lords Sitting of 9 May 1811

PROTESTANT DISSENTING MINISTERS' BILL.
Viscount Sidmouthrose, in pursuance of the notice he had given on a former day, to propose to their lordships

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a Bill "to explain and render more effectual certain Acts of the 1st year of the reign of King William and Queen Mary, and of the 19th of George 3rd, so far as the same relate to Protestant Dissenting Ministers." The noble viscount said, it was his intention at this time to bring under their consideration the abuses which had arisen in the interpretation and the execution of two statutes, the 1st of William and Mary, and the 19th of George 3rd, so far as the same related to Protestant Dissenting Ministers. No man more than himself respected the rights given to Dissenters by these Acts of Toleration; but all classes of mankind in this country, the Dissenter as well as the member of the Established Church, were interested in removing those abuses which he alluded to; for in the proper exercise of religious duties was involved the dignity, the honour, and the sanctity of religion itself. The full advantage and happy blessings of toleration were not experienced before these statutes; for it unfortunately occurred, that one intolerant party in religion was succeeded by another equally intolerant; and it was not till the reign of king William that a true spirit of toleration was extended to those whose conscientious opinions led them to dissent from the doctrines and discipline of the Established Church. King William attempted several salutary measures, some of which, he was happy to think, he did accomplish; and others, he was sorry to say, had not been successful: but he effected one, the Toleration Act, which had secured religious liberty to the people of this country. Another act was passed in the 19th of the present reign, which amended that of king William. But if their lordships would turn their attention to the terms of these two acts, they would find that the appointments of ministers and teachers of religion were made contrary to the spirit and true intent of those statutes. He should ever consider the present mode of appointment as injurious to society, and such as he was sure was condemned by every worthy and enlightened Dissenter. It was a matter of importance to society, that not every person, without regard to his moral character or his intellectual faculties, should assume to himself the office of instructing his fellow-creatures in their duty to God. It could never be the wish of the Dissenters; indeed, from the communication he had had with that respectable class of men, he knew it was contrary to their ideas that a person should thus
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take upon himself the assumption that he was competent to become the religious instructor of others. On this subject he had gained extensive information, and had been made acquainted with facts, which shewed that abuses existed to a considerable degree in the self-appointment of improper individuals. For such was the mode generally pursued on this occasion, that if any person, however depraved, however ignorant and illiterate, whether descending from a chimney or a pillory, if he appeared at the quarter sessions, and claimed to take the oath of allegiance to his Sovereign and that against Popery, and made the necessary declaration provided by the 19th of Geo. III. he was entitled to, and could demand a certificate, although there was no proof of his fitness to preach, or of his having any congregation requiring his ministerial services. Thus it resulted that the immunities granted by these acts were in a number of instances claimed and enjoyed by individuals, to the greater burden of the rest of their fellow-subjects. Down to 1802, one of those immunities was an exemption from military services; and, to this time, from serving on juries, and other civil duties, which were forced upon other members of society. There was considerable evil in this respect, as the immunities were extended to persons who certainly, by every fair interpretation of the act, were not intended to receive that privilege. With respect to the mode of rectifying such abuses, he now meant to present a Bill to their lordships, and then should desire that it be read a first time. The object of this measure was, in the first place to procure a clear declaration of the law, to remove the erroneous interpretation adopted by magistrates in general, and to prevent improper persons from their own assumption taking upon them an office of all others the most important to a well-regulated community. He should be sorry if it were thought that he cast any imputation upon the different orders and classes of men; but in the account of abuses he had received, and the individuals described, though he would forbear to mention any name, there were persons claiming those certificates, who were coblers, tailors, pig-drovers, and chimney-sweepers. He could see a noble lord (Holland) smile at this recital: perhaps he considered this a fanciful objection; but he could assure the noble lord, he meant no imputation on the trade or employments of those men. But when he looked round the House, he felt

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the strongest respect for their lordships, and yet they would not feel displeased when he assured them he should be sorry to see any of them taking the place of lord Wellington, of lord Gambier, or of sir Edward Pellew. In that sense he thought the situation of those men he had mentioned disqualified them from being teachers and instructors of their fellow-subjects. It would also be understood, that he was not wishing to alter the Act of Toleration, but to provide that persons applying should not be entitled to their certificate, unless they had one signed by six reputable housekeepers of the persuasion to which he belonged. The noble viscount read the provisions of the two Acts, and inferred from them that the intention of the legislature was not to grant the certificate to any but such as were in holy orders, or were the teachers of a congregation. Indeed, the statutes had been differently explained in different counties, for the certificates had not been granted, of course, in the counties of Devon, Buckingham, and Norfolk, but several had been refused. This, however, was not effectual against the applicants, for they could easily obtain the certificate from an adjoining or more distant county. With respect to the intellectual qualifications of those claiming this office, though it was a matter also of great importance, he should not in the least interfere. But he did think it incumbent that such persons should not act upon their own assumption of their own competency, without any proof of their being proper to be so appointed by a certain number of their own sect. From the returns on the table, it did appear that there was also required more attention to the Established Church. If it was a vital part of the constitution, it deserved their most anxious solicitude, for whatever tower of strength they might erect in the country, their security depended upon the firmness of their foundation. The Church of England must ever be considered, both by Protestant and Dissenter, as that steady guide which directed the opinions and judgment of the whole nation. But if this part of our national constitution was not better attended to, we should be in danger of having a nominal Established Church, and a sectarian people. It appeared from the returns, that there were places where the church could not contain more than a quarter of the population/in others a much less number, and where the majority of the inhabitants lived upwards of four miles from the church. In
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the reign of queen Anne, the necessity of erecting more churches occupied the attention of parliament; and it was at length ordered, that fifty new churches should be erected in the metropolis. Notwithstanding the extent of the city at that period, there had been only 10 built in pursuance of those proceedings, and since that time the population and the buildings had increased to twice the extent of those preceding, which induced the House of Commons to agree, in bad times, that there was a necessity to build 50; therefore upon the same reasoning, there was now a necessity to build 100.—The noble viscount next noticed the ideas he had before entertained respecting pluralities, when he thought they were only to be found in the hands of poor individuals; but he was sorry to say he had authentic information that they were only to be found amongst the higher beneficed clergy. In bringing this measure forward, he again most strongly disclaimed any motive or intention of adopting any measures of intolerance towards the Dissenters; he was abhorrent towards a disposition of that nature. The noble viscount concluded by presenting the Bill to the House, and moving that it be read the first time.
Lord Hollandsaid, he would not act so irregularly as to oppose the first reading of a Bill, but he thought it right, in candour, to state, that he could not agree with the noble viscount in the object proposed. The noble viscount founded his measure upon an opinion, that it was only by the permission of government that persons were entitled to preach those religious doctrines which they held. Now, he on the contrary, was of opinion, that every person had a right to preach those religious opinions which he conscientiously believed. He regretted that the noble viscount had spoken invidiously of persons in inferior situations of life becoming preachers, for surely they were fully as entitled to preach those religious opinions which they conscientiously believed, as those who received the advantages of the rich endowments of the church, He regretted also, that his noble friend should have at all touched upon the subject, as in his opinion it could only tend to excite dissentions. No case had been made out which called for the interference of Parliament. The exemptions from civil duties, of which the noble viscount complained, could only apply to a few persons, and it was better that those few persons should have their exemptions, than

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that Parliament should run the risk of exciting those dissentions which must be caused by meddling with the Toleration Act. He agreed with the noble viscount as to the propriety of increasing the number of churches, but whilst he had no objection to a grant by Parliament for that purpose, he thought that the Church itself ought to be called upon to contribute to an object, in which the interests of that Church were so materially involved. He would not now go further into the subject until he had read the Bill, but to the object slated by the noble viscount he was decidedly hostile, thinking it much better, and infinitely the wiser course, that the Toleration Act should remain untouched.
Lord Viscount Sidmouth,in explanation, disclaimed the slightest intention of speaking in the least invidiously of the persons whom he had alluded to, on account of their inferior station in life. As to the Toleration Act, it was no part of his object at all to alter it; his only purpose was to have it ascertained with certainty what the law was. On the subject of Churches, he thought a Bill ought to be passed, enacting, that in every new church or chapel a certain portion of the area should be set apart for the admission of the people, without any charge.
Earl Stanhopethought it would be better for the noble viscount to begin by some measure for building places of worship to accommodate those members of the Established Church who were now, as stated, for want of that accommodation, obliged to go to meeting-houses, before he tried his hands with the dissenters.
The Bill was then read a first time, and ordered to be printed.

COPY OF LORD SIDMOUTH'S BILL RELATING TO PROTESTANT DISSENTING MINISTERS.
The following is a copy of the Bill as brought in by Lord Sidmouth:
A BILL, intituled, an Act to explain and render more effectual certain Acts of the First Year of the Reign of King William and Queen Mary, and of the Nineteenth Year of the Reign of his present Majesty, so far as the same relate to Protestant Dissenting Ministers.
"Whereas, by an Act made in the first year of the reign of king William and queen-Mary, intituled, 'An Act for exempting their Majesties Protestant subjects dissenting from the Church of Eng-
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land from the Penalties of certain Laws,' persons dissenting from the Church of England in holy orders, or pretended holy orders, or pretending to holy orders, and preachers or teachers of any congregation of Dissenting Protestants, in order to their being intitled to certain exemptions, benefits, privileges, and advantages, by the said Act granted, are required to declare their approbation of, and to subscribe to certain Articles of Religion: and whereat by another Act, made in the nineteenth year of the reign of his present Majesty, intituled, 'An Act for the further relief of Protestant Dissenting Ministers and Schoolmasters,' it is enacted, that every person dissenting from the Church of England in holy orders, or pretended holy orders, or pretending to holy orders, being a preacher or teacher of any congregation of Dissenting Protestants, if he shall scruple to declare and subscribe as required by the said first recited Act, may make and subscribe the declaration in the said last recited Act set forth, in order to his being entitled to the exemptions, benefits, privileges, and advantages, granted by the said first recited Act, and to certain other exemptions, benefits, privileges, and advantages, granted by the said last recited Act: and whereas doubts have arisen as to the description of persons to whom the said recited provisions were intended to apply, and it is expedient to remove the said doubts; May it therefore please your Majesty that it may be declared and enacted, And be it declared and enacted by the King's most excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords spiritual and temporal, and Commons in: this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, that every per-son being a Protestant dissenting from the Church of England in holy orders, or pretended holy orders, or pretending to holy orders, who shall be appointed pr admitted to be the minister of any separate congregation of Dissenting Protestants, duly certified and recorded or registered according to law, shall be, and is here by declared to be, a person entitled to qualify-himself to be a dissenting minister, within the intent and meaning of the said recited provisions of the said Acts; and that no other than such person as aforesaid is so-entitled within the intent and meaning of the same.
"And be it further enacted, that, from and after the passing of this Act, upon the appointment of any person, being a pro-

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testant dissenting from the Church of England, and being in holy orders, or pre tended holy orders, or pretending to holy orders, to be the minister of any separate congregation of Dissenting Protestants, duly certified and recorded or registered according to law, and upon his admission to the peaceable possession and enjoyment of the place of minister of the said congregation, it shall be lawful for any or more substantial and reputable householders belonging to the said congregation, in order that the said minister may duly qualify himself according to this Act, to certify the said appointment and his ad mission to the peaceable possession and enjoyment of the said place, by writing under their hands and proper names, in the form set forth in the Schedule of this Act marked A., to be directed to the justices of the peace at the general session of the peace to be holden for the: county, riding, or place where such congregation shall be established; and every such minister, who shall cause the certificate to him granted as aforesaid to be recorded at any general session of the peace to be holden as afore said, within after the date of the said certificate, in the manner directed by this Act, (proof being first made on the oath of or more credible witness or witnesses of the hand-writing of the several persons: of the said congregation whose names are subscribed to the said certificate), shall be and is hereby allowed, without further proof, to take the oaths and to make and subscribe the declaration against popery required to be taken and made by the said Act passed in the first year of the reign of King William and Queen Mary, and also the declaration set forth in the said Act passed in the nineteenth year of the reign of his present Ma jesty; and after taking the said oaths, and making and subscribing the said declarations, in manner and upon proof aforesaid, every such minister shall be and is hereby declared to be entitled to all the exemptions, benefits, privileges, and advantages granted to Protestant Dissenting ministers by the said recited Acts or either of them, or by any Act in the said recited Acts or either of them mentioned or referred to.
"Provided always, and be it further enacted, that nothing herein-before contained shall affect or impeach, or be construed to affect or impeach, any provision or exemption, or any qualification or modification thereof, contained in any statute made since the said recited Acts, and now
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in force, relating to the militia, or the local militia of this kingdom.
"Provided also, and be it further enacted;, that nothing herein-before contained shall affect or impeach, or be construed to affect or impeach, the title or claim of any dissenting minister, who before the passing of this Act shall have taken the oaths and subscribed the declaration mentioned or set forth in the said recited Acts, or either of them, to have and enjoy the exemptions, benefits, privileges, and advantages granted by the said Acts, or either of them.
"And whereas it is expedient to exempt from certain penalties other persons herein after described, who shall make and sub scribe the declaration set forth in the said Act of the nineteenth year of the reign of his present Majesty, be it further enacted, that in case any person, being a Protestant dissenting from the Church of England, and in holy orders, or pretending to holy orders, but who shall not have been appointed or admitted the minister of any separate congregation of Dissenting Protestants, shall be desirous of qualifying himself according to this Act, to preach and officiate as a dissenting minister, if shall be lawful for any or more substantial and reputable householders being respectively Dissenting Protestants of one and the same sect or persuasion with the person applying, to certify, on their consciences and belief, by writing under their hands and proper names, in the form set forth in the Schedule of this Act marked B., to be directed to the justices of the peace, at the general sessions of the peace to be holden for the county, riding, or place, where the said householders, or the major part of them, shall reside, that such person is a Protestant Dissenting minister of their sect or persuasion, and has been known to them and every of them, for the space of at the least before the date of the said certificate, and that such person is of sober life and conversation, and of sufficient ability and fitnesss to preach or teach and officiate as such dissenting minister; and every person to whom such last mentioned certificate shall be granted, who shall cause the same to be recorded at any general session of the peace to be holden as aforesaid, within after the date of the said certificate in the manner directed by this Act, proof being first made on the oath of or more credible witness or witnesses of the hand writing of the several persons Whose names are subscribed to the said certificate, shall

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be, and is hereby allowed, without further proof, to cake the said oaths, and make and subscribe the said declarations in the said recited Acts mentioned or set forth; and every such person, after taking the said oaths, and making and subscribing the said declarations in manner and upon the proof aforesaid, may from thenceforth preach and officiate as a dissenting minister in any congregation of Dissenting Protestants duly certified and registered or recorded according to law; and every person so qualifying himself as last aforesaid, shall be wholly exempted from all and every the pains, penalties, punishments, or disabilities inflicted by any statute mentioned in the said recited Acts, or either of them, for preaching or officiating in any congregation of Protestant Dissenters for the exercise of religion permitted and allowed by law.
"And be it further enacted, that upon the appointment or admission of any per son of sober life and conversation to be a probationer for the exercise during a time to be limited of the functions of a Protestant dissenting minister, it shall be lawful for any or more dissenting ministers who shall have taken the said oaths, and made and subscribed the said declarations pursuant to the said recited Acts or either of them, or this Act, to certify the said appointment or admission by writing under their hands, in the form set forth in the schedule of this Act marked C. to be directed to the justices of the peace at the general session of the peace to be holden for the county, riding, or place where the said ministers or major part of them, shall reside, and that the person so appointed or admitted is of sober life and conversation, and has been known to them for the space of before the date of the said, certificate, and every person to whom such last mentioned certificate shall be granted, who shall cause the same to be recorded at any general session of the peace to be holden as aforesaid, within after the date of the said last mentioned Certificate in the manner directed by this act, (proof being first made on the oath of or more credible witness or witnesses of the hand-writing of the said ministers whose names are subscribed to the said certificate), shall be and is here by allowed with out further proofs to take the said oaths, and to make and subscribe the said several declarations in the said recited acts mentioned or set forth; and every such person, after taking the said oaths, and mak-
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ing and subscribing the said declarations, may from thenceforth, during the period specified in such certificate, and not exceeding next ensuing, preach and officiate as such probationer in any congregation of Dissenting Protestants duly certified and registered or recorded ac cording to law; and every person so qualifying himself as last aforesaid, shall be, and is hereby declared to be, during the space of exempted from all and every the penalties, punishments, and disabilities inflicted by any statute mentioned in the said recited Acts, or either of them, for preaching or officiating in any congregation of Dissenting Protestants for the exercise of religion permitted and allowed by law.
"Provided always, and be it enacted, that nothing herein contained shall be construed to authorise or enable any per son to qualify more than as such probationer.
"And be it further enacted, that the justices of the peace, to whom any such certificate as aforesaid shall within the time herein limited be tendered at their general session, shall, and they are hereby required, after such proof in verification thereof as is herein directed, to administer the said oaths and declarations to the person producing such certificate, upon his offering to take and make and subscribe the same respectively, and thereupon to record the said certificate at the said session, and thereof to keep a register: Provided always, that any declaration required to be subscribed by the said recited Acts or either of them, shall be subscribed in open court, with the proper Christian and surname and names of the person making such declaration in his own handwriting, and in the' usual manner of his writing, the same in words at length, and not otherwise: Provided always, that in the body of every certificate granted by the said officer or officers of the said court to any person as such probationer and not as minister, there shall be expressed the limitation of time for which such certificate shall be in force by virtue of this Act.
"And be it further enacted, that every certificate of appointment or admission of any such minister, or of any person to officiate as such minister, or of any such probationer pursuant to this Act, shall be subscribed with the respective proper names of the several persons granting the same, in their own hand-writing, and in the usual manner of their writing and sub-

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scribing the same, and in the presence of the person or persons who is, or are to be, the witness or witnesses, to verify the same before the court of general session of the peace in the manner here directed.
"And be it further enacted, that this Act shall be deemed and taken to be a public Act, and shall be judicially taken notice of as such by all judges, justices, and others, without being specially pleaded.
Schedules to which this Act refers.

COPY OF LORD SIDMOUTH'S BILL RELATING TO PROTESTANT DISSENTING MINISTERS.

  SCHEDULE (A).
  Certificate of Appointment or Admission of a Minister to a separate Congregation.
  To the justices of the peace at the general session of the peace to be holden for the county, (riding, city or town, as the case may be), of We, whose names are hereunto subscribed, being respectively substantial and reputable householders, belonging to the separate congregation of dissenting Protestants of the sect or persuasion denominated [Here describe the sect or persuasion of dissenters] duly certified and recorded (or registered) according to law, to be holden at [Here insert the house, chapel, or place, and the parish, town, and county where the congregation assemble] do certify that A. B. of being in holy orders (or pretended holy orders, or pretending to holy orders, as the case shall require) hath been appointed minister of the said separate congregation, and has been admitted and is in the peaceable possession of the place of minister of the same. Given under our hands this day of in the year of our Lord

  Signed and subscribed by the above-named C. D., E. F. G. H., I. K., L. M., and N. O. in the presence of P. 2. of the day above written.

  (Signed)

  C. D.

  I. K.

  E. F.

  L. M.

  G. H

  N. O.

  SCHEDULE (B.)
  Certificate of Appointment or Admission of a sufficient Person to preach and officiate as a Dissenting Minister.
  To the justices of the peace at the general session of the peace, to be holden for the county, riding, city, or town, [as the case may be], of We, whose names are hereunto subscribed, being respectively substantial and reputable householders and Dissenting Prostestants of the sect or persuasion denominated [here de-
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  cribe the sect], do certify on our consciences and belief, that A. B. of is a Protestant Dissenting minister of our sect or persuasion, and one of our congregation, and that we have and each of us hath known the said A. B. for the space of at the least, before the date of this our certificate, and that we duly believe in our consciences that the said A. B. is a person of sober life and conversation, and of sufficient ability and fitness to preach or teach, and officiate as a dissenting minister. Given under our hands this day of in the year of our Lord

  Signed and subscribed by the above-named C. D. C. D. E. F., G. H., I. K., E. F. L. M., and N. O., in the G. H. the presence of P. 2. of day above-written.

  (Signed.)

  C. D.

  I. K.

  E. F.

  L. M.

  G. H

  N. O.

  SCHEDULE (C.)
  Form of the Certificate of Appointment or Admission of a Probationer.
  To the justices of the peace at the general session of the peace to be holden for the county of We, whose names are hereunto subscribed, being respectively dissenting ministers, duly qualified according to law, in the sect or persuasion denominated [here describe the sect], do certify that A. B. of is a person of sober life and conversation, and has been known to us for the space of before the date of this our certificate, and hath been appointed or admitted by us as a probationer for the exercise of the functions of a Protestant Dissenting minister for the term of, after qualifying himself as required by law. Given under our hands this day of in the year of our Lord

  Signed and subscribed by the above-named C. D. E. F., G. H., I. K., L. M., and N. O., in the presence of P. 2., of the day above-written.

  (Signed.)

  C. D.

  I. K.

  E. F.

  L. M.

  G. H

  N. O.