Lords Sitting of 6 May 1811

DISTILLERY BILL.
Upon the order of the day for the second reading of this Bill,
The Earl of Suffolkapologized for his preceding the noble earl (Bathurst) in offering a few observations to their lordships. But his age was such that he felt himself inadequate to take any part in discussion towards the close of a lengthened debate, and therefore he was induced to make a few remarks at this early period of the evening. Their lordships would perhaps allow he was entitled to considerable knowledge respecting the question under their consideration. The knowledge he possessed was founded upon careful investigation, and upon the experience of many years. It would be in the recollection of many who heard him, that the early period of his life was devoted to the duties of a military profession and the service of his country. Having resigned the command of his brigade to that excellent officer general O'Hara, he returned home and took possession of those estates which, with his title, descended to his inheritance. The persons whose principles had ever been consonant to his own were then in administration, but they remained in only a very short period, and upon the change
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which followed he quitted the idea of any further appointment, and resolved on a retirement to the management of his landed property. It was then his determination to become an independent member of the community, and uniting that disposition with a study of the interests of agriculture, he endeavoured to form that character which it was always the pride and boast of his subsequent life to maintain. However, he found that his estates had been greatly neglected, that his farm-houses were gone to decay, and his tenants were in a worse situation than those of any neighbouring landlord. The land, notwithstanding, was as fine as any which could be found in the whole country, and only required the care of cultivation to make its produce equally advantageous. He immediately turned his attention towards its improvement, and the whole of his estate became more profitable. The rent, which had been 5s. an acre, was raised to 30 s.; and he recollected that considerable quantities of barley were produced, to the great advantage of his tenants. He took into his own hands a considerable portion of his park and other grounds, and he remarked that one year the produce of barley from a few acres was prodigiously great, being upwards of 100 sacks from eleven acres. Afterwards his tenants were never in arrear, and at this time he could say he had not a single tenant whose rent was in arrear. He thought every encouragement ought to be given to agriculture in this country, and on that principle he considered the present measure extremely objectionable. He believed it was not a-party question, and he was glad that the administration did not consider themselves called upon to use their political influence; because, whenever that was the case, it was well known the decision might be anticipated. He should always be of the same opinion as to the impolicy of this measure; and he entertained this sentiment in opposition to the system of Mr. Pitt. In France, the government attempted to lower the price of grain, a famine was the result, and a depreciation of the assignats took place at the same time; and he would remind his Majesty's ministers that a similar event might take place in this country. A guinea was not now to be seen, for it really happened with him that be wanted two guineas, he wanted some substantial gold, but he could not obtain a single guinea. His tenants paid

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him in paper, not a tenth part of which was in Bank of England notes, but in those of country banks; and indeed he grew apprehensive lest they should become invalid in his possession.—The noble earl next adverted to the Property Tax, as collected from landholders like himself, and from tenants in general; with respect to the latter, he was sure that tax was very imperfectly collected; and if ministers would turn their attention to the subject, they might, he was confident, increase the revenue to upward of two or three millions. Upon the whole, he was satisfied this Bill would be injurious to the interest of agriculture, and he had considered it his duty to express these sentiments to the House.
Earl Buthurstrose for the purpose of stating to the House, the principle and nature of the measure now under their lordships' consideration. He would as briefly as possible detail the regulations which guided the principle of this Bill, which were a relative proportion to the price of sugar and the price of corn It was not fit, heir lordships would perceive, that the price upon which the computation was founded should be too high, nor on the other hand should it he at too low a rate. The relative proportion was therefore taken, with respect to barley, at 38 s. a quarter and with regard to sugar, at 70 s. 9d. It would be found that the quantity of spirits produced from each of these articles would be nearly equal, and if their lordships would attend to the calculation with respect to the price itself, upon the raw article, and the duty to be imposed, they would distinctly observe the price of the spirit to the distiller would be the same upon each. The noble earl proceeded to compute the prices on a certain quantity of barley and malt, and the duty thereon, together With the price and duty on a quantity of sugar proportioned to produce an equal quantity of spirit, whereby it appeared that the price to the distiller on both these articles would be 12 s. 0½d. on each gallon of spirit. It was thus that the relative proportion became such as to bring sugar into the market upon equal terms with those of grain. In respect to Scotland, there was a difference which obliged those who adjusted the proportion between the prices and quantity of each of these articles to adopt some variation in the computation, and the proportion concluded upon left the price of a gallon of spirit from one 9s. and from the other 9s 0½d. The result of this differ-
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ence between England and Scotland was, that an advantage accrued to the last mentioned part of the kingdom. In anticipating the objections against this measure, there was one which be did not conceive could be applied to the principle of the Bill, and would more correctly fall under their consideration when the House should resolve itself into a committee. The objection he alluded to was the apprehension of sugar falling below the price calculated upon as bearing in proportion to that of barley and malt. In his mind, there was no ground for entertaining this apprehension; but even if it could be anticipated, it Would only suggest the propriety of proposing a provisional clause in the Committed. With respect to those objections which were to be urged against the principle, he should notice that of its being unwise to adopt any legislative measure upon a subject which ought to regulate itself it was said the present Bill went to create a maximum, which most at all times have a pernicious tendency. But their lordships; would consider what were all the regulations which the legislature at different periods had thought it expedient to adopt, but such as created the effect of a maximum. When it was thought proper to grant a bounty on the importation of foreign corn, because the corn of this country bore a certain high price, what was this but to prevent our home produce from becoming higher? In the same manner when by legislative provision the exportation was prevented, was it not upon the same principle to prevent the high price of corn? The object of the noble lords opposite seemed to promote a monopoly amongst the growers of corn, and to increase its high price, which would only have the effect of raising the rents; 'He trusted the country would never have an opportunity of witnessing that House attending to any interests of their owns or of seeing them guided by any selfish principles.
The Earl of Aberdeendeprecated the Bill as tending materially to injure the agricultural interests of the country, and by taking away a part of the market to reduce the demand for, and consequently the growth of barley, which on many lands was an intermediate step to the cultivation of wheat, and thus reducing our supply of food at a time when we had only a precarisous dependence for a supply from the continent. No reason had been stated for the measure; there was not' at present any

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plea of scarcity and it seemed to be only brought forward for the purpose of granting a boon to certain interests.
The Earl of Rosslynentered at some length: into detail, for the purpose of shewing the fallacy of the calculations stated by earl Bathurst, particularly with respect to Scotland, where grain would be completely, driven out of the distillery market from any competition with sugar. He contended that the Bill was founded upon a most erroneous and improvident policy, and that the only effect of it would be to cause a reduction in the revenue to the amount of 690,000 l.; that was to say to take out of the pockets of the public that sum, and put it into the pockets of the West-India planters.
The Earl of Darnleywas of opinion, that no injury would arise to the agricultural interests of the country from the present measure. It was proved by the increase of the price of barley, and the increased importation of that article during former prohibitions of the use of that article in the distilleries, that no injury was done by them to the agricultural, and he was therefore disposed to support the present Bill, conceiving that it would not injure the farmer at home, and that it would benefit our colonies.
The Earl of Hardwickeurged the importance of the cultivation of barley, as an intervening step, on a great portion of land, to the cultivation of wheat, and that therefore it was most essential to the interests of the country, that the market for barley should not be lessened by taking from it the demand for the distilleries His lordship moved that the Bill be read a second time this day six months.
The Earl of Westmorelanddefended the Bill, and contended that the sugar grower in our colonies was entitled to all the assistance we could render him, and that the barley grower here would not be in the least injured by the effect of the Bill.
Lord Hollandurged, that the object of the Bill was simply this, not that the West-India colonist should be let into competition with the grower of barley, but that when barley had reached a price to let in the foreign farmer, that then the West India colonist should be let into the market for the distilleries instead of the farmers of France; and surely when the enormous sum we had paid in during the last year to our enemies for our corn, was for a moment considered, it must be deemed an object of sound policy, to give that advantage
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to our own distressed colonists instead of giving it to the farmers of France. This was the ground upon which the Bill was founded. When the barley here had reached 33 s. per quarter, it was known that by the existing laws importation was permitted, and the foreign farmer was let into the market. Surely then it was not too much to ask for our own West India colonist to be let into the market with sugar for the distilleries when barley had reached the price of 38 s per quarter.
The Earl of Lauderdalecontended that this argument was founded in a fallacy; that the fact was, that it would not pay the foreign farmer to import barley here at 33 s.; that he could not do it under 50 s and that therefore at 38 s the competition would not be between the West India colonist and the foreign farmer, but between the sugar grower and our own farmers. This he maintained was giving an undue advantage to the sugar grower, to the great injury of our own agriculture; and that the whole scope and tendency of the Bill was evidently to increase that advantage to the sugar grower.
The Earl of Liverpooladmitted, that if the contest was between the interests of the West India Colonists and the Agricultural interests of the country, that the former must give way; but here there was no such question, all that was asked was, to let in the West India Colonist in competition with the foreign farmer, the interests of our own farmer being completely pro vided for. It was shewn that neither the growth of barley nor the quantity of malt had been diminished by former prohibitions, but on the contrary, that they had increased; and therefore, there was no ground for supposing that the present measure would have the least effect in diminishing the growth of barley.
Lord Grenvilleurged, that from the nature of the provisions of the Bill, a bounty was in fact given on the use of sugar in the distilleries to the exclusion of our own bailey, and to the vital injury of the real interests of the country, by lessening the demand, and consequently diminishing the supply of food at a time when it was more than ever necessary to increase our internal resources. He could not conceive any thing more injurious than this intermeddling species of policy, interfering with and diverting the regular course of nature, and affecting to regulate by an imaginary rule the prices of articles which ought to be left to find their own level.
The question was then put, that the word "now" stand part of the question, on which the House divided.

Contents

36

Not Contents

56

Majority

—20

The Bill was accordingly lost.

List of the Majority.

DUKES.

LORDS.

Clarence

Hastings (Moira)

Gloucester

St. John

Somerset

Hay (Kinnoul)

Bedford

Sundridge (Duke of Argyle)

Portland

Grantley

MARQUISES.

Winchester

Grenville

Lansdowne

Dundas

Stafford

Cawdor

Stewart (Galloway)

EARLS.

Carrington

Suffolk

Bolton

Jersey

Wodehouse

Oxford

Lilford

Bristol

Carysfort

Cowper

Keith

Pomfret

Sheffield

Buckinghamshire

Lauderdale

Fitzwilham

Granard

Hardwicke

Ponsonby

Spencer

Ailsa (Cassilis)

Talbot

Breadalbane

Norwich (Duke of Selkirk Gordon)

Strathmore

Selkirk

Fortescue

Aboyne

Rosslyn

Aberdeen

Nelson

Lucan

Grey

BISHOPS.

VISCOUNTS.

Oxford

Bolingbroke

Norwich

Sidmouth

Lincoln.

List of the Minority.

DUKES.

LORDS.

Cambridge

Ciifton (Darnley)

Cumberland

Holland

Beaufort

Brownlow

EARLS.

Walsingham

Westmorland

Eliot

Sandwich

Grimstone

Poulett

Douglas (Morton)

Aylesford

Mulgrave

Macclesfield

Saltesford

Digby

De Dunstanville

Graham (Duke of Montrose)

Harewood

Rolle

Batliurst

Eldon

Camden

Redesdale

Mount Edgecombe

Arden

Liverpool

BISHOPS.

Chichester

Worcester

Lonsdale

Clonfert

Harrowby

Exeter.

VISCOUNT

Sidney