Lords Sitting of 21 June 1811

DISTILLERIES.
On the second reading of the Spirit Drawback Suspension Bill, counsel were called in, and Mr. Dauncey, on the part of the Distillers in and round London, and Mr. Warren, for certain Distillers in Scotland, were heard against the Bill.
Earl Bathurststated, that the object in framing the Bill had been to give every security to the English and Scots distiller, and that therefore it was directed that the Irish distiller should warehouse his spirits intended for exportation, the quantity and strength being first ascertained: and the quantity and strength on exportation, and being imported into this country, being also ascertained, in order to prevent fraud. He was aware that from these warehouses a part of the spirit might be withdrawn for home consumption, and replaced by other spirit; but to prevent this was impossible, without indirectly prohibiting the intercourse altogether. It was suggested that the Irish distillers should have distilleries appropriated only for exportation, but as this Bill was only a temporary measure, it could not be expected that they would incur the expence of having distilleries appropriated only for that purpose, and therefore to make such a provision, would in fact amount to a prohibition of the intercourse.
The Earl of Lauderdalecontended that the Bill would, in its operation, be ruinous to the English and Scots distiller, by giving a decided preference in the market to the Irish distiller. He wanted nothing but a fair intercourse, that neither might have the advantage of the other; but under the present Bill the Irish distiller would have the means of bearing down all competition in the English market, by the undue advantage given to him in importing hither his spirit. Either under these circumstances, the intercourse ought to be altogether prohibited or else the Irish distiller

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Ought not to be allowed to export without having distilleries appropriated solely for the manufacture of spirit for exportation, it being perfectly evident that unless this regulation was established, numerous frauds would be committed in withdrawing spirits for home consumption from the warehouses entered for exportation, which would render the warehousing system of little or no use.
Earl Bathurstcould not consent to the introduction of any provision into the Bill for not allowing the Irish distillers to export without appropriating distilleries solely for that purpose, as that would, under the circumstances he had already mentioned, amount to a prohibition of the intercourse.
The Bill was read a second time and committed for Monday.

ARMY PRIZE MONEY REGULATION BILL.
The Earl of Suffolkaddressed their lordships at considerable length on a variety of topics which he conceived more or less connected with the subject of this Bill. He considered the measure as one of great importance, and that those who brought it forward had acted very laudably; but he conceived some explanation respecting the measure was still necessary. He understood that an immense sum, not less than 250,000 l of Army Prize-money, still remained in the agents hands. Some of it so long as nearly 20 years. But with respect to the interest accruing on that money, he wished to be informed. A good deal of Prize-money had, from time to time, become due to those gallant troops who participated with the navy in their glorious exploits against the enemy. At Buenos Ayres, a few years since, the captors were entitled to a great deal; and here he wished to remark the case of that gallant and meritorious officer, sir W. Beresford, to whom the country of our allies in the peninsula owed so much: The money he became entitled to on that occasion, was, he understood, about 27,000 l the whole of which he lodged in the banking-house of a relative who had lately failed. He thought his Majesty's ministers should take the case of this gallant officer into consideration, and reimburse him for his loss; and he trusted it would be done. He thought it would be highly advantageous, if, as recommended in one of the Reports from the naval commissioners, a board of agency were to be established, and the present system of prize
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agents superseded. What was due, and long retained from officers of the navy, it" consequence of the existing system, was almost incredible. The exertions of the present treasurer of the navy to ameliorate and reform this system, and to procure a more expeditious liquidation of the rightful demands of our gallant seamen, was greatly to his honour. His lordship then animadverted on the present system which obtained in the Admiralty courts, where, from the multitude of causes, and the paucity of proctors, or officers of that description, the most injurious consequences, particularly from vexatious procrastinations and delays, resulted to the suitors in the courts. One of these, called the King's proctor, was said to have no fewer than 500 causes on his hands at once, so that it was impossible justice, could be done. There were a number of counsel: Why not enlarge the number of the proctors? The delay of justice was, as far as it went, an abuse of justice. A similar system prevailed in many of the Admiralty courts abroad, where the suitors had much to complain of. The noble earl related the mode in which he obtained much information on this head from lord Cochrane, who had put into his hands a proctor's bill in one of the Vice-Admiralty courts. It was of enormous and unprecedented length, and which he would shew their lordships. The noble earl then opened and laid the bill along the floor, to a length of apparently 20 feet. He continued to expatiate on what he censured as the injurious delays and procrastinations of the Admiralty courts, more especially with respect to Prize causes. He also glanced at the courts of Appeal, and lastly touched upon the accumulation of appeals in their lordships' House, and the delays which he observed took place in the transaction of their judicial business. This, he thought, ministers had pledged themselves to bring forward some remedy for this session; but nothing effectual had been done; The plan had been given up, and nothing was to be done, at least for the present session.
The Lord Chancellorobserved, that he should deem it an inexcusable waste of their lordships' time, if he were to occupy any of it in answering what very little tell from the noble earl, that bad the east reference to the measure under consideration. But not a little of what fell from him (though totally irrevalent to the Bill) was of such a character and tendency, as

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that he could not, consistently either with; his feelings or his duty, pass it over in silence. He would principally notice two points which were the subject of the noble earl's observations. And, first, he would observe, that with respect to those points and assertions which he had been instructed to advance, and to make in that House, respecting the conduct of the Admiralty and Vice-Admiralty Courts, and those judicial establishments connected with them, they were unfounded in truth or justice. They were subjects of which the noble earl could know little or nothing himself; and he ought to have been certain that his accusations or insinuations were founded in fact, before he came down to that House and aspersed the characters of some of the most respectable, judicial, and professional persons in the empire—he meant the judges and principal officers of the courts alluded to, either at home or abroad. Whenever charges were made against them in the proper shape and place, those worthy and respectable persons would be ready to meet those charges in a proper manner. They never yet shrunk from inquiry either in this country, or in any of its dependencies. Those individuals who were then made the subject of obloquy and unmerited accusation were, some of them, he knew, as pure and irreproachable characters, and of as high and untainted honour as the noble earl himself, or any of those he was connected with. He must regret, therefore, that a member of that high assembly, should so conduct himself in introducing even a species of mummery never before witnessed, in these walls, and altogether unbecoming the dignity and gravity of that branch of the legislature. The noble and learned lord then proceeded to notice what had fallen from the noble earl respecting the accumulation of Appeals, and the delays in transacting the judicial business of the House. What the noble earl had said on this head, was equally unfounded. The inconvenience referred to had been long felt, and measures were adopted at the instance of those with whom he had the honour to act, in order to remedy the grievance. A Committee had been appointed from among their lordships, who duly proceeded to investigate the important subject committed to their charge. Before that Committee he had given his deliberate and solemn opinion as to the causes which led to the inconveniences complained of, and as to
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the most efficacious remedy. It was painful to him, nor could he be expected, on a point which referred so much to himself, to dwell upon the subject. He had spent the far greater part of his life in professional habits, or judicial situations, and in the high office of presiding in their lordships' House, and he could truly and conscientiously state his conviction, that little good could be effected with respect to what their lordships complained of, except he who so presided were materially assisted in his business in another court. The sincere opinion, and advice he had given, was not so likely to affect himself as those who were to come after him.
The Earl of Suffolkshortly spoke in explanation. What fell from the noble and learned lord was far from satisfying his mind as to the subject he chiefly adverted to; and, as to the bill produced, their lordships must think it extravagantly long, when they heard that the proceeds of the prize to which it referred were 8,000 crowns, and the proctor's bill on the occasion amounted to 6,800.
The Earl of Liverpoolshortly alluded to the total irrelevancy of almost all that fell from the noble earl, to a Bill which solely related to the better regulation of army prize-money.
Lord Redesdalefollowed up the observations of his noble friend on the woolsack. He was confident, he said, there existed in the country a settled scheme, which was actively persevered in, to bring the administration of justice into disrepute; and as to the delay, or temporary failure of the remedial measure, it was by no means attributable to that House, still less to his Majesty's government; but it was attributable to the friends of the noble earl himself. His lordship then entered into an exposition of the plans proposed, and which, he believed, the noble earl must be unacquainted with: and into a detailed discussion of the causes of those unavoidable delays in the transactions of the judicial business of the country, but particularly in the court of chancery, and in their lordship's House, and which were by no means the fault of those who were entrusted with the administration of justice, but solely to be attributed to the machinery employed not being rendered sufficiently strong or extensive to meet the increased weight and extent of the business to be disposed of.
Earl Camdenvindicated the conduct of the Appeal Courts; the business of

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which he would venture to say was as well attended to as that of any courts in the kingdom, without exception.
The Bill was then read a third time and passed.