Lords Sitting of 13 June 1811

Preamble
Some conversation took place on a notice given by the earl of Radnor, of "motion for some proceeding to be adopted by the House, in consequence of an indictment against a noble peer for a capital charge. Lord Ellenborough observed upon the difficulty in this case, a peer and another individual being included in the same indictment; if, therefore, the indictment was removed into that House by certiorari, he did not see how the inferior court could then try the other individual. The earl of Radnor said he had framed his motion for the purpose of bringing into the House a copy of the indictment. Lord Ellenborough thought there was no precedent for this. After some further conversation it was agreed that the earl of Radnor's notice should stand for Tuesday.

INSOLVENT DEBTORS' BILL.
Their lordships having proceeded to the consideration of the report of this Bill,
Lord Ellenboroughexpressed his decided disapprobation of the Bill, as then before the House. He had uniformly understood the Bill to be brought in as a temporary insolvent act, on the withdrawing of his noble friend's general and comprehensive bill, and that it was to have been exactly 'similar to the act of last year. This he feared was not the case. There were considerable variations; and the sum was extended from 2,000 l. to which it was limited in the last act, to the immense sum of 5,000 l

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This he did not expect. He disapproved of frequent recurrences to bills of insolvency, which not a little encouraged improvident expenditure, led to fraudulent practices, and too frequently were productive of injurious consequences to the honest and unsuspecting creditor. He was aware, from the nature of the business which came judicially before him in another place, that measures of the kind led to many and extensive fraudulent practices. The number of cases respecting promissory notes, bills of exchange, and negociable securities, was almost incredible; and many of those had their rise from the frequency of such measures. Alive as he was to the calls of true humanity, he could not avoid saying, that for one unfeeling or vexatious creditor there were ten unworthy debtors. He did not expect to see the Bill, after what had passed, so different from that of last year; and he understood the noble ear to have reduced the sum to 3,000 l.
The Earl of Moiracould not answer exactly for what the noble lord had understood upon the point; but on that head he had more than once pointedly declared his intention. He should not support a temporary insolvent bill, except it were on an ampler scale than the last one. He was adverse to the principle of these temporary and palliative measures. He differed from the noble and learned lord as to the principles he seemed to entertain respecting imprisonment for debt, and there were provisions in the Bill of last year which he never could agree to. The grounds on which he always advocated the cause of debtors, and strove for the melioration of the laws with respect to them, were, abstracted from feelings and considerations of humanity, consonant to the clear and incontrovertible principles of justice.
Lord Ellenboroughcontended, that the ends of justice would be best consulted by adhering to the law as it now stood. His experience and observation enabled him to state, that there were twenty fraudulent debtors where there was one vexatious and unmerciful creditor; and every attention should be paid to the claims of the creditor, who had generally run great risks, and who might be wholly ruined, if all hold on the debtor were to be taken from him.
The Lord Chancellordeclared that he had given the utmost attention to bills of this nature; and though he was ready to admit that a great mass of evil existed in
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this respect, yet he did not believe that it would in the least be alleviated by bills of the present description.
The House then divided on the clause, whether the sum should be 3,000 l. or 5000 l. when the numbers were in favour' of the latter. Contents 6; Non Contents 4; majority 2. After some further discussion the other clauses of the Bill Were agreed to.