Lords Sitting of 8 April 1811

PRINCE REGENT'S MESSAGE RELATING TO PORTUGAL.
Marquis Wellesleypresented a Message from his royal highness the Prince Regent, representing the distresses which in a part of the inhabitants of Portugal were plunged by the savage barbarities exercised against them by the French army in its retreat, and expressing a desire than heir lordships' House would concur in enabling him to afford the sufferers speedy and effectual relief.—[For the Message see the proceedings of the House of Commons.] The marquis then moved, that his royal highness's Message be taken into consideration to-morrow, and that the lords be summoned.—Ordered.

STATE OF THE KING'S HEALTH.
Earl Grosvenorrose and asked, whether it was the intention of ministers to lay before the House a copy of the Report of her Majesty's council, respecting the state of the King's health?
The Earl of Liverpoolobserved, that the Report alluded to by the noble earl was to be found in the records of the Privy Council, and that if the noble earl was desirous to have it before the House, it was competent for him, or any noble lord, to move for its production.
The Earl of Grosvenorsaid, he should make a motion to that effect to-morrow.

MILITIA ENLISTMENT BILL.
On the order of the day being read for the committal of the Militia Enlistment Bill,
The Earl of Liverpoolbriefly observed upon the nature of the Bill, the object of which was to derive a constant supply from the Militia for the regular army, without interfering with the ordinary recruiting service. The proportion of the Militia to be allowed annually to enlist amounted to about one-eighth, but it was by no means imperative on the government to take the whole amount of this proportion, but, in the exercise of a sound discretion, only such a part of it as might be necessary in aid of the ordinary recruiting to supply the waste in the army. The militia was to be reduced to its old number, to keep up which, enlistment was to be resorted to, including a proportion of boys from 14 to 17. He was anxious that the ballot should not be struck out of the statute-book, but at the same time it was
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desirable that it should be resorted to as little as possible. The provision in former bills burdening the counties with the support of the families of enlisted men, and substitutes, was in this Bill left out, it being deemed unreasonable, that where men were not soldiers by compulsion, as in the case of balloted men, the counties should be burdened with the support of their families. The burden would also be lessened by the proposed measure, of enlisting a proportion of boys.
The Earl of Rosslynagreed in the propriety of the regulation as to the families of enlisted men and substitutes, but wholly differed as to the expediency of the mode proposed by the Bill of supplying the wastes in the army. His lordship entered, into a variety of details, for the purpose of shewing that the Bill, even in the view of those who proposed it, could not answer its intended purpose. The waste in the army, during the years 1808, 9, and 10, had been at the rate of 21,000 men each year, the utmost number to be produced by this Bill, and by the intended bill of a similar nature for Ireland, was 10,000 men, whilst the ordinary recruiting, it appeared by the returns of last year, did not produce more than 9,000 men. Thus, then, the whole number to be produced was 19,000, and the waste was 21,000; so that there would be an annual deficiency of 2,000 men. The operation of the Bill, likewise, would materially interfere with the ordinary recruiting. The average sum given for a substitute in the Militia was 50 l. and how could it be expected, with these high bounties in the market, that the ordinary recruiting could be effective, with a bounty of 16 guineas? The noble earl warmly panegyrised Mr. Windham's plan, which increased the advantages of the service, whilst it left the market for recruiting without competition. By this, plan, in the first half year of its operation, 11,000 men were produced, and there was every reason to believe, that had it been allowed a longer existence, it would have produced recruits in a much larger proportion.
Viscount Sidmouthacknowledged he only gave his support to the present measure upon a belief of its indispensible necessity. All were agreed as to the necessity of keeping up our army, and he saw no other effective means of doing so except by the present measure. He agreed in the wisdom of Mr. Windham plan; but denied that it had produced the

numbers stated by his noble friend, there having been, at the time alluded to, an intimation given to render effective the incomplete second battalions; in consequence of which, there were 1,200 recruiting parties out in the country, instead of 500, and by which a much larger number of men than usual had been produced. He agreed, however, that if Mr. Windham's plan had been allowed to operate, there was every probability that it would have operated very favourably to the recruning service, and decidedly objected to the mode now adopted, of giving an option of limited service, or service for life, conceiving that those, mixed terms of service had an unfavourable effect upon the army. Under existing circumstances, he conceived the present to be the only measure that could be adopted, nor could he consent to estimate the waste in the army at 21,000 men. In 1808 there was a great loss of men in the north of Spain, and in 1809 in the Walcheren expedition, the effects of which continued to operate in 1810, all contributing to increase the waste in the army; but there was no reason to expect the operation of similar circumstances again; and therefore 19,000 men, the estimated produce of this measure, combined with the ordinary recruiting, might be considered fully sufficient, or more than sufficient, to supply the annual waste in the army.
Lord Hollandcould not but regret to see the Militia so broken in upon as it must be by the present Bill; but his chief objection was to the clause which went to convert it from a temporary into a permanent measure. The noble, lord took occasion, highly to extol Mr. Windham's plan which had exceeded in its operation the sanguine expectation of his friends: but the present measure would totally destroy all the benefits which that Salutary plan was calculated to produce, By making it perpetual, instead of temporary, it was proceeding upon principles diametrically opposite to those which he had ever maintained respecting matters of that nature; and so far, therefore, it must have his most decided negative.
The Earl of Westmorelanddefended the Bill, and observed, that the ballot was not to operate till the year 1813, and that, therefore, the competition in the market between the bounty substitutes, and the bounty in ordinary recruiting, could, in the mean time, exist.
The Earl of Hardwickeobserved, with
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respect to leaving out the provision for the families of enlisted men and substitutes, that, it would not practically make much difference, as their families must still be provided for as paupers. He thought it would be better to enact, that provision should be made for the families of those who had not received a higher bounty than twelve guineas.
The House then went into the committee on the Bill. The Report was received, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.
Viscount Sidmouthtook that opportunity of stating, that the average waste of the army in time of peace was between 12,000 and 13,000, inclusive of the foreign service. The average waste during times of active warfare was 23,000, so that the 10,000 men which was to be supplied from the militias of England, Scotland, and Ireland, would cover the difference of the waste of the army in time of peace and war.